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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 38200 times)

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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1175 on: June 02, 2021, 06:36:08 pm »


I still read WCD as scummy and I think the mason claim has really helped that. She has had to take a stance again me, but that hurt her attempt to town read gloobie. So now she's attempting to create doubt on both of us, more that accept our claim. With no real case against me, except OMGUS because I read her as scum.

Lastly, I don't think scum!Gloobie and scumapasta would actually so strongly defend joth against ash's misrepresentations. i.e. those are much more likely coming from mason us who don't know joth's actual faction.

I can accept that you are in a WCD tunnel. It happens. But two things.... Iím not the one trying to create doubt about your claim. Thatís Dylan. Iím not sure I buy it, but heís the one laying out why it could be a gambit. Second, the Joth exile doesnít happen without me. And there was zero pressure for me to have have hammered him. You werenít going to change your mind about me, Galz wasnít showing up. I could easily have voted for someone else and spared Joth. I played around with the idea of voting for you for just disappearing that afternoon. There was no reason for me to hammer if I was scum. Scum only hammer for credibility when the loss of the teammate is acceptable and inevitable (and even then, itís not my way). This wasnít even close to inevitable. YOU are the one who made it not-inevitable, in fact. So, youíre going to have to explain how that works, which would require breaking your tunnel vision for a moment, before I have confidence in you.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1176 on: June 02, 2021, 06:40:12 pm »

Also, keep in mind that if there were 2 scum in the reverse timeline, PPS is 100% scum.

Sure would have been nice to have had any conversation about this at all yesterday instead of the Eddie pile on.  :(
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1177 on: June 02, 2021, 06:42:19 pm »

Also, keep in mind that if there were 2 scum in the reverse timeline, PPS is 100% scum.

Sure would have been nice to have had any conversation about this at all yesterday instead of the Eddie pile on.  :(

It was discussed at length.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1178 on: June 02, 2021, 06:42:49 pm »

Also, keep in mind that if there were 2 scum in the reverse timeline, PPS is 100% scum.

Sure would have been nice to have had any conversation about this at all yesterday instead of the Eddie pile on.  :(

It was discussed at length.

Well, okay, I talked about it, no one else did too much about it.
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scolapasta

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1179 on: June 02, 2021, 06:57:24 pm »

What do think, Mix? Trust the masons or no?

I say flip Jack first. Then if he's not scum, we can worry about the masons tomorrow.

But honestly I'm not sure. I'm not sure at all.

What's the case on Jack?

The case on Galz... not on the Joth wagon.

Pretty flimsy seeing as he was on nothing due to posting nothing.

Agree, but the Joth wagon and it actually getting the exile was by the skin of our teeth. Like it would have been super easy for Dylan or EFHW or I to just let it be a no exile. So easy, in fact, that it leads me to believe that weíre all town because literally each of us was pivotal. Scola defending Joth was super scummy, so if were to believe he was wrong, but not scummy, that leaves Galz. It is entirely POE, but itís strong POE.

In saying my defending of joth was super scummy, you keep equating my defending his statements being misrepresented by ash (which they were) as my defending him from being exiled (which I did not). Of course, I also did not vote for him, but that's just because there was a better place for my vote. (a) trusting gloobie's read over my non read, and b) thinking you are on the scum team).

I have given a few examples of things you've done that I thought were scummy. (granted the scumslip may have just been me seeing something that wasn't there and confirmation bias). But can you give specific examples of what you find scummy that I did or said?
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1180 on: June 03, 2021, 06:56:21 am »

Also, keep in mind that if there were 2 scum in the reverse timeline, PPS is 100% scum.

Sure would have been nice to have had any conversation about this at all yesterday instead of the Eddie pile on.  :(

This was what the whole ďEddie or PPSĒ thing was about?
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1181 on: June 03, 2021, 03:38:21 pm »

Putting my thoughts down as mentioned, even though it may not be too relevant to today's discussions.  I guess Glooble is active, so there's that.

On Glooble:

--he and PPS have already discussed this, but Glooble's actions wrt joth are hard to ignore.  He was by far joth's biggest defender, even making the twin argument at one point.  I'd be interested in reading a study of twin play over time (Robz/Mcmc, glooble/joth, etc. in all games), actually.  Someone should do that.
--So, as Glooble says, was he just super way wrong town?  Or as PPS says, the boldest of bold mafia plays?  I see a few possibilities, in no particular order.

1. Planned, bold mafia play.  Decided early on that, for some reason (2-person team maybe?), there would be no bussing and they would be all in to defend each other at every turn.
2. Unplanned, bold mafia play.  Started off defending joth assuming since it was an ashersky situation, it wouldn't take much to change the subject, but then it kept going and going, and backing off would have looked even worse after a flip (true) so he just went all in.
3. Wrong town read.  Really just thought joth was town, was fooled, basically.
4. Unconscious bias against ashersky from previous interactions.  This could be a thing...Glooble and I have argued in the past, so it's hard to trust the next time.  Hopefully I've earned back some cred here.

I'm with PPS here in that Glooble's play is not necessarily bad or dumb mafia play.  There's plenty of upside if he's on joth's team.


Now, scola.

I actually think scola looks much, much worse.  He kept defending joth with a lot of "but what about me?  I did the same stuff" kind of arguments.  Their defense of joth was never about joth.  It wasn't like "joth did x" or even "joth seems towny to me" but was instead only focused on "if ash says joth is mafia for X, why am I not mafia too since I also did X?" 

Scola tried to discredit by case to relieve pressure on joth without actually defending joth himself, which means he can argue that he never really thought he was towny, etc. so that he doesn't look so bad when we know he's confirmed mafia.  That's textbook partner defense.

I don't see any other explanation for scola's actions.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1182 on: June 03, 2021, 03:48:10 pm »

The thing I'm trying to figure out is eddie's twice (at least) read of WCD as town, as she is my top scum read for forwards. So is this a trying to try to create suspicion on town WCD? or WIFOM it should create suspicion so gives her some twon cred, when she's scum? I don't know.

Also, there is some chance I guess Eddie is town. No way enough to reverse the exile, if there is a governor. (I also suspect that maybe the twilight power might be something different than governor? I haven't played enough to know what other twilight powers exist)
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1183 on: June 03, 2021, 03:51:30 pm »

Schola, Iím not trying to be antagonistic. I do think itís really interesting, though, that you are coming at me guns blazing for an opinion of no consequence.

I feel like a very studious sieve. And I get you're not trying to be antagonistic. I'm not worried of ever taking anything personally in this game.

I just have a read of you as scum; and the way I read that post felt like a slip. ("I" instead of "he") I do see now how you may have actually meant I. I don't think that adjusts my read on you, though.

I actually have yet to answer ash's attack on me, figured better to save until tomorrow. But if you read me as "defending" joth, that feels like scum trying to misrepresent what I was doing.

Which is why I thing tomorrow we should vote either you or ash. For some reason, from ash it feels like incorrect town and from you as scum, but I could see it being the other way too.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1184 on: June 03, 2021, 04:19:00 pm »

Sorry for spamming the threads.  I wanted to have access to those posts when I am on my phone.


In saying my defending of joth was super scummy, you keep equating my defending his statements being misrepresented by ash (which they were) as my defending him from being exiled (which I did not). Of course, I also did not vote for him, but that's just because there was a better place for my vote. (a) trusting gloobie's read over my non read, and b) thinking you are on the scum team).

I have given a few examples of things you've done that I thought were scummy. (granted the scumslip may have just been me seeing something that wasn't there and confirmation bias). But can you give specific examples of what you find scummy that I did or said?

You're right (I needed to reread) that you were not defending Joth. I did misrepresent that opinion, and I apologize. Instead, you were just working against his exile. Ash explains it better than I do in that first post I reposted. But perhaps more importantly is what I said a few posts before that... we almost didn't get the Joth exile off.  In order for it to happen town really needed to fall in on the vote. To be absent in the time before the deadline and leaving you vote to do help us not at all (from my perspective) is scummy.  Galzack is scummy for this reason, too.  4 to exile out of what was effectively 6 people is rough, especially if we suppose there are two scum. 

So, its not so much that you are saying scummy stuff, its that I think that if there are 2 scum in our TL, it has to be you or Galzack. And you were trying harder to get us not to exile than anyone else other than Glooble.

You're ongoing suspicion of me is trickier. This is a game where some people have been tenacious in their wrongness, so you might just be following along. I correctly read Eddie, and he correctly read me.  I think I have played in every mafia game that he has played since we both came to f.ds except one, and that was the one my husband played in (we don't play well together). I think that we read each other pretty well.  Instead of taking his green flip and looking back and re-evaluating what he said now knowing with full certainty that he was town, you are plowing along in your anti-didds campaign based on, well, I am not sure what.

You have not responded to the PoE arguments, nor explained why I (or anyone) would ever, ever hammer my partner when he could have just stayed alive and then we could plabe the no-exile on Glaz. I wasn't under pressure AT ALL. I hammered him because he was scum and I am town.

Finally, there is the "scumslip" that you have accused me of. It wasn't a slip of any kind. MiX has expressed his opinion, and I continue to stand by what I said exactly the way that I said it. You have said that it could have been in your head. But still you are using that sense to inform your gameplay. Its like you keep getting information that you have been wrong or misled, but you aren't changing anything in light of that information...just digging in stubbornly.

You tell me what you have done that has helped town. Or why Glazack is better exile. Or anything really that can get the conversation moving forward.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1185 on: June 03, 2021, 05:02:15 pm »


I still read WCD as scummy and I think the mason claim has really helped that. She has had to take a stance again me, but that hurt her attempt to town read gloobie. So now she's attempting to create doubt on both of us, more that accept our claim. With no real case against me, except OMGUS because I read her as scum.

Lastly, I don't think scum!Gloobie and scumapasta would actually so strongly defend joth against ash's misrepresentations. i.e. those are much more likely coming from mason us who don't know joth's actual faction.

I can accept that you are in a WCD tunnel. It happens. But two things.... Iím not the one trying to create doubt about your claim. Thatís Dylan. Iím not sure I buy it, but heís the one laying out why it could be a gambit. Second, the Joth exile doesnít happen without me. And there was zero pressure for me to have have hammered him. You werenít going to change your mind about me, Galz wasnít showing up. I could easily have voted for someone else and spared Joth. I played around with the idea of voting for you for just disappearing that afternoon. There was no reason for me to hammer if I was scum. Scum only hammer for credibility when the loss of the teammate is acceptable and inevitable (and even then, itís not my way). This wasnít even close to inevitable. YOU are the one who made it not-inevitable, in fact. So, youíre going to have to explain how that works, which would require breaking your tunnel vision for a moment, before I have confidence in you.

I love it when Didds stands up for herself!
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1186 on: June 03, 2021, 05:49:05 pm »

❤️
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1187 on: June 03, 2021, 10:33:17 pm »

This is the best Didds.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1188 on: June 03, 2021, 10:33:25 pm »

Vote: Scola
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1189 on: June 03, 2021, 10:39:15 pm »

I don't know why it took so long to remember this, and I don't know how many people have been partners with scumapasta before, but they were all about the plans and trying to figure out plays involving claims. Unfortunately, I can't really say more about what specifically they came up with in BSG season 1 because of not public info, but I firmly believe a mason fakeclaim is 100% something scola would be all for trying based on that. Now that Jack is in the game, he could probably 2nd what I'm saying, because he was our other partner and might remember (or I guess go back and verify) a time or two where I was trying to caution scola about the drawbacks and risks of the plan(s) they were coming up with.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1190 on: June 03, 2021, 10:46:47 pm »

Basically, what it comes down to, I just don't believe that claim. PoE from early days and reads of conf!towns point at them (such that NK's targeted to silence their opponents are quite possible), the timing of the claim was scummy, Glooble's reaction to scola claiming sounded (to my ears) more like scum than mason, and this is exactly the scenario that it makes the most sense for scum to try to pull the mason gambit if scolooble are in fact scum.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1191 on: June 03, 2021, 10:48:00 pm »

Also, to be clear, Didds points are good too
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1192 on: June 03, 2021, 10:51:33 pm »

Scola's plans in that game did tend to be on the inventive side, yes. He could be doing the same thing here, I suppose.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1193 on: June 03, 2021, 11:03:02 pm »

I don't know why it took so long to remember this, and I don't know how many people have been partners with scumapasta before, but they were all about the plans and trying to figure out plays involving claims. Unfortunately, I can't really say more about what specifically they came up with in BSG season 1 because of not public info, but I firmly believe a mason fakeclaim is 100% something scola would be all for trying based on that. Now that Jack is in the game, he could probably 2nd what I'm saying, because he was our other partner and might remember (or I guess go back and verify) a time or two where I was trying to caution scola about the drawbacks and risks of the plan(s) they were coming up with.

I mean generally, I would think this would mean that my claiming mason is NAI because I could do it as scum, as well as town. (i.e. you seem to be doing the same thing as I've been doing with WCD)

And you're forgetting that a) those plans were attempt to cover up something that needed covering up and b) for the most part they were to be used, as needed, reactively. They don't fit the pattern of claiming masons at the beginning of the day. (and also when most people were town reading gloobie, ie why endanger him if we were both scum).

I honestly don't know any more. My reads of how WCD posts are that they read scummy to me. BUT she makes a great point of hammering joth and I had not considered that (this being "active" every other day is annoying). So I went back, and she did indeed do that hammer, and at a time when she's right it wasn't needed. And I don't really see her doing that for twon cred; in particular with joth as godfather. So I think I have to trust that and ignore my reads. (it''s just annoying because I had similar reads in the dwarf mafia and ignored them)

I guess the question I have to ask myself is could there have been scum on the joth wagon? And if so, who? And if not, voting for galzack (which seems a horrible nickname) could be the way to go.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1194 on: June 04, 2021, 12:26:14 am »

Checking in, I don't think I posted today.

I never got to read what Didds said (and it's 5 am so I can't anymore), but whatever she's saying, she's right. That's the vibe I'm getting from her. This is like town leader Didds and I love it.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1195 on: June 04, 2021, 12:27:08 am »

Vote Count 4.2:

scolapasta (1): Dylan32
Not Voting (9): EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, Jack Rudd, Awaclus, PPS, Glooble, hypercube, MiX


With 5 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 3 to Exile.
Today, the active timeline is the FORWARD TIMELINE We will remain in the FORWARD TIMELINE until the start of Day 5.
Day 4 ends Sunday, June 6th at 4:25pm Forum Time.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1196 on: June 04, 2021, 03:17:37 am »

I don't know why it took so long to remember this, and I don't know how many people have been partners with scumapasta before, but they were all about the plans and trying to figure out plays involving claims. Unfortunately, I can't really say more about what specifically they came up with in BSG season 1 because of not public info, but I firmly believe a mason fakeclaim is 100% something scola would be all for trying based on that. Now that Jack is in the game, he could probably 2nd what I'm saying, because he was our other partner and might remember (or I guess go back and verify) a time or two where I was trying to caution scola about the drawbacks and risks of the plan(s) they were coming up with.

--snip--

And you're forgetting that a) those plans were attempt to cover up something that needed covering up and b) for the most part they were to be used, as needed, reactively. They don't fit the pattern of claiming masons at the beginning of the day. (and also when most people were town reading gloobie, ie why endanger him if we were both scum).

--snip--

I actually just don't agree with either part of your summary of your plans from that game. I grant that some were reactive to previous day's events, but certainly not all, and definitely not the ones that involved coming up with fake claims. You were thinking ahead to the endgame in early nights and trying to come up with claims and cover stories for actions long before there was any real need to do so. And also, you spent part of it trying to come up with cover and a fake claim FOR ME when I wasn't going to be taking an action anyway. There wasn't anything for me to cover up, but you tried creating a claim for both of us that would give one or both of us credibility if needed since there were moments we were both under pressure in that game.

Quote
I mean generally, I would think this would mean that my claiming mason is NAI because I could do it as scum, as well as town. (i.e. you seem to be doing the same thing as I've been doing with WCD)

I also don't think I'm doing the same thing at all. I'm comparing your play in this game to a very recent scum game of yours, and I think you are that version of yourself. You seem to have misread a post and have let that impression color how you have read the rest of their posts.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1197 on: June 04, 2021, 07:44:30 am »

Can we go back, briefly, to the ďpps claims he tried to do a night action on me that I should have seen but I didnít see itĒ thing?

None of the flipped townies have redirector or roleblocker powers. It seems like a weird false claim for scum pps to make. If someone redirected or roleblocked pps, I think it would be good if that person claimed at least a little.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 4!
« Reply #1198 on: June 04, 2021, 07:50:05 am »

Can we go back, briefly, to the ďpps claims he tried to do a night action on me that I should have seen but I didnít see itĒ thing?

None of the flipped townies have redirector or roleblocker powers. It seems like a weird false claim for scum pps to make. If someone redirected or roleblocked pps, I think it would be good if that person claimed at least a little.

This will probably make more sense once we flip pps and see if he was slightly telling the truth or not. It's WIFOM that should probably be ignored for now.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #1199 on: June 04, 2021, 09:45:03 am »

Prod request: Galz

Alright, I'm going to try to get Vote: Galz going.

An interesting moment from D2; at this point Dyan and scola are voting for Didds. If joth and scola are partners I'd kind of expect joth to vote for Didds here - scola is already pretty committed to defending joth so it seems logical they'd want to try and push a counterwagon together.

Prodding Galz could be joth trying to get his partner in the game, voting for Galz is stranger if they're partners but joth seemed pretty defeated at that point and could just be playing the long game and trying to create distance between them.
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