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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 130504 times)

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Uncleeurope

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1075 on: May 27, 2021, 01:30:26 am »

Amazing how much evidence seems to be cropping up.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1076 on: May 27, 2021, 01:35:46 am »

Amazing how much evidence seems to be cropping up.

Amazing how much evidence to the contrary is not cropping up.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1077 on: May 27, 2021, 01:46:21 am »

Amazing how much evidence seems to be cropping up.

Amazing how much evidence to the contrary is not cropping up.

What evidence would you like? I feel like I’ve offered quite a lot.

Scum players don’t do anything that I did today.

Not that I have seen.

I know I wouldn’t do what I did today as scum. As scum I don’t like to be killed, to a paranoid frenzy. Very methodical and careful (ehh, I try to be) As Town, I have confidence that my actions need not be explained, because I am a town player trying to win. That should be enough.

Maybe I play this game wrong, but I see it as my job as Town to catch scum. “Acting towny” is what scum does, I see no interest in trying to walk those footsteps.

Am I an idiot? Maybe. But I enjoy my style of play, and am often able to find the scum that I look for.

I apologize if my actions are seen as “anti-town” or whatever, but I assure you I am always trying to win, and can only work with the information available to me.

I am also sorry if I am seen as spiteful, that is not my intent in the least. I’m not upset at anyone, and never intended on appearing as such.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1078 on: May 27, 2021, 02:19:38 am »

You're really walking kind of the same road with the same tone that MiX has since joining us. I generally agree your job as town is to find scum, but really, your only objective is to win the game, full stop.  If your play gets you exiled instead of scum, you have made it harder for town to win and thus played suboptimally towards your wincon even if you were perfectly right with every read unless you manage to convince town to totally believe you from the grave.

So if you are town and everything you have said is sincere, feel free to play the game how you want as long as you are playing to try to win, but also don't be surprised if you don't get the results you want because of it. There were a couple games where there was an unfortunately not super uncommon attitude that a town!MiX was a bigger asset to scum than to town because of a few aspects of his play style that were consistently seen as at best hurtful for town and at worst straight up scummy.

Two things have happened I think to change that, and both were equally important. 1) the more he played, the more we understand his meta. He didn't have to just say "i do this when I'm town" every other post, and even when he did we didn't listen. We just had to see it several times to draw our own conclusions. 2) Eventually, MiX listened to some of the critiques he was getting about why town thought his play was either scummy or so bad that exiling him instead of scum was better for the game as a whole, and he worked to moderate some of those tendencies a bit in such a way that he was still himself, but a version of himself that people actually enjoyed having in the games and (imho) has been turning into a lot stronger town player lately than he probably was early on.

So be you, and have fun, but also don't be shocked if playing exactly like this as town gets you exiled again in another game. For what it's worth after all that, even if you're scum, I did genuinely enjoy having you in the game; I just think you're scum haha.

Big mobile post so pardon any mistakes.

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Uncleeurope

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1079 on: May 27, 2021, 02:46:05 am »

When does it become town’s responsibility to learn my meta and stop executing me?

That’s my goal with all of you people.

I sure hope you don’t go changing your meta to fit a mold, it would mess with my reads.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1080 on: May 27, 2021, 05:11:33 am »

When does it become town’s responsibility to learn my meta and stop executing me?

That’s my goal with all of you people.

I sure hope you don’t go changing your meta to fit a mold, it would mess with my reads.

Preach.

It's not up to a person to change their meta to have people townread them, it's up to others to distinguish a person's town and scum meta. That person just needs to do the same: distinguish other people's town and scum meta. If everyone stops blaming town for getting scumread, we would all improve as a community and we would kill scum. Nowadays it just seems like town does whatever and then scum wins.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1081 on: May 27, 2021, 06:07:43 am »

I used to think these things. I was wrong. Mainly because meta manipulation is for scum whether I am playing as scum or not.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1082 on: May 27, 2021, 09:28:13 am »

You're really walking kind of the same road with the same tone that MiX has since joining us. I generally agree your job as town is to find scum, but really, your only objective is to win the game, full stop.  If your play gets you exiled instead of scum, you have made it harder for town to win and thus played suboptimally towards your wincon even if you were perfectly right with every read unless you manage to convince town to totally believe you from the grave.


Dylan, this is a good observation. Eddie and MiX are 100% cut from the same cloth. They play very similarly, and have many of the same ways of approaching people and situations. Eddie isn't quite as abrasive, but also isn't quite as declarative. I find them both enigmatic, but they are consistent in the way they are. Look at how active he has been today...totally MiXian.  What is strange is that MiX wasn't as active, but that is a different question.

Eddie funning with us on the "good luck to my partners" post was exactly the kind of thing MiX would do. I know it wasn't spiteful, but they are probably the only ones who actually found it funny outside of the scum team.  But most of us are un-funny most of the time, so eh...what can you do?
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1083 on: May 27, 2021, 11:24:26 am »

When does it become town’s responsibility to learn my meta and stop executing me?

That’s my goal with all of you people.

I sure hope you don’t go changing your meta to fit a mold, it would mess with my reads.

Preach.

It's not up to a person to change their meta to have people townread them, it's up to others to distinguish a person's town and scum meta. That person just needs to do the same: distinguish other people's town and scum meta. If everyone stops blaming town for getting scumread, we would all improve as a community and we would kill scum. Nowadays it just seems like town does whatever and then scum wins.

I just 100% disagree with all of this.

If it’s up to all other players but you, are you even playing?  Or are you just a prop in everyone else’s game?

“I know I am town, everyone else should just know no matter what I do” is not an acceptable way to play this game, in my opinion.  If that were the case, I could claim mafia, vote only to exile ICs, etc. and not be held accountable.

Hold yourself accountable.  This is a team game, even when you don’t know your teammates.  (Single player factions notwithstanding)  Everyone should play in a way to not hurt your teammates’ chances of winning.  Don’t blame your teammates for your play when it is bad.  I speak from experience.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1084 on: May 27, 2021, 11:50:03 am »

Yeah you play the game by dunking scum.

Also blaming town for making you vote them and not blaming yourself for voting town is lol.

Just don't blame anyone other than yourself and scum.
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Uncleeurope

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1085 on: May 27, 2021, 12:05:54 pm »

Yeah you play the game by dunking scum.

Also blaming town for making you vote them and not blaming yourself for voting town is lol.

Just don't blame anyone other than yourself and scum.

Yup.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1086 on: May 27, 2021, 12:11:33 pm »

Eddie funning with us on the "good luck to my partners" post was exactly the kind of thing MiX would do. I know it wasn't spiteful, but they are probably the only ones who actually found it funny outside of the scum team.  But most of us are un-funny most of the time, so eh...what can you do?

This sounds like you think Eddie is town. Why do you think that?

Like there's a chance, sure, but everything he's done today post twilight also makes sense from a scum who wasn't expecting twilight. So why fall on the side of "he's funning with us?"
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Uncleeurope

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1087 on: May 27, 2021, 12:21:13 pm »

She trusts me.

Not all that complicated.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1088 on: May 27, 2021, 12:22:00 pm »

Eddie funning with us on the "good luck to my partners" post was exactly the kind of thing MiX would do. I know it wasn't spiteful, but they are probably the only ones who actually found it funny outside of the scum team.  But most of us are un-funny most of the time, so eh...what can you do?

This sounds like you think Eddie is town. Why do you think that?

Like there's a chance, sure, but everything he's done today post twilight also makes sense from a scum who wasn't expecting twilight. So why fall on the side of "he's funning with us?"

He's funning with us regardless of alignment. Anyone could tell he was trying to do the ol "my partners are town" trick. Well not everyone would think it's what he's doing, but it wasn't exactly obscure either.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1089 on: May 27, 2021, 12:33:59 pm »

She trusts me.

Not all that complicated.

Doesn't seem like she thought you were "funning" when you first posted:

But it sounds like I am wrong, regardless, which is mostly evidence that I am better at paying attention to nuance when I am playing instead of following along.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1090 on: May 27, 2021, 12:37:58 pm »

... Anyone could tell he was trying to do the ol "my partners are town" trick. Well not everyone would think it's what he's doing, but it wasn't exactly obscure either.

anyone really? You're saying right after he posted - before twilight was announced your reaction was "oh he must actually be town" and was trying to trick us?

For the record, reereading his post, I think that settles me on his being scum was the last line:
"Wouldn’t change how I played, that though."

I don't think he'd also add that if he were funning us.

I guess we'll find out in about an hour.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1091 on: May 27, 2021, 12:38:57 pm »

I do separately think I may have found a WCD scumslip (posting it now, in case I die during the night):

Please enlighten me about this. Yesterday, when joth stalled at E-1, pingpongsam was like "wagon is stalled, he must be scum" and WCD agreed with him. Now Eddie's wagon is stalled at E-1 and WCD is like "wagon is stalled, he must be town". What is different between the two scenarios that would make you draw the opposite conclusion from the same data?

Dunno, really. Maybe that I am watching instead of playing. When I was playing (FT), I knew I was town.

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1092 on: May 27, 2021, 12:42:47 pm »

... Anyone could tell he was trying to do the ol "my partners are town" trick. Well not everyone would think it's what he's doing, but it wasn't exactly obscure either.

anyone really? You're saying right after he posted - before twilight was announced your reaction was "oh he must actually be town" and was trying to trick us?

For the record, reereading his post, I think that settles me on his being scum was the last line:
"Wouldn’t change how I played, that though."

I don't think he'd also add that if he were funning us.

I guess we'll find out in about an hour.

He would definitely add that if he was funning us.

My reaction was "oh Uncle's funning us". He does this as either alignment.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1093 on: May 27, 2021, 12:54:31 pm »

Also, thanks @ash thanks for the post spelling out the details of the claimed PR. It's an expansion of what I was trying to say, that it doesn't really make sense to me as a PR in a game where you can only act every other night.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1094 on: May 27, 2021, 12:58:22 pm »

Not that this means anything to anyone, but I would have never made that ability up as scum.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1095 on: May 27, 2021, 01:30:09 pm »

Literally everyone on both sides of reactions missed my point that BOTH town learning a person's meta AND the person learning to play in a way that works with town instead of hurting town are important. But if you are town, town has learned your meta and knows that you are town, but they still think it's a pro-town play to get rid of you instead of looking for scum because you are actively getting in town's way, that's on you! That's the point MiX was at a while ago; I remember a couple games where people straight up saying "I don't care if MiX is town, he is the best exile because he's hurting our chances of winning."

Don't manipulate your meta to try to fit a specific mold! Be yourself! But also recognize that if there are specific things you are doing that actually hurt town's chances of winning, it's on you to stop doing that, because if you don't you can expect town to see you as a threat or harm to keep around and exile you.

Now I don't know that you did anything like that this game, I started to make this point just as a response to the "I'm going to be me no matter what you think" attitude. Yeah, be yourself, but if it hurts town, expect to be exiled anyway.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1096 on: May 27, 2021, 01:38:57 pm »

I'll be surprised if Eddie flips town.

If a governor intercedes, we won't get a flip at all. That would be vexing.

I think each player is absolutely responsible for how they are perceived.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1097 on: May 27, 2021, 01:42:46 pm »

I'll be surprised if Eddie flips town.

If a governor intercedes, we won't get a flip at all. That would be vexing.

I think each player is absolutely responsible for how they are perceived.

well, unless governor interceding is not public, that time has passed.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1098 on: May 27, 2021, 01:46:32 pm »

Literally everyone on both sides of reactions missed my point that BOTH town learning a person's meta AND the person learning to play in a way that works with town instead of hurting town are important. But if you are town, town has learned your meta and knows that you are town, but they still think it's a pro-town play to get rid of you instead of looking for scum because you are actively getting in town's way, that's on you! That's the point MiX was at a while ago; I remember a couple games where people straight up saying "I don't care if MiX is town, he is the best exile because he's hurting our chances of winning."

Don't manipulate your meta to try to fit a specific mold! Be yourself! But also recognize that if there are specific things you are doing that actually hurt town's chances of winning, it's on you to stop doing that, because if you don't you can expect town to see you as a threat or harm to keep around and exile you.

Now I don't know that you did anything like that this game, I started to make this point just as a response to the "I'm going to be me no matter what you think" attitude. Yeah, be yourself, but if it hurts town, expect to be exiled anyway.

They were wrong. The mere fact that they say that is what makes killing me resemble something that is pro-town. That's on them. The moment you stop policy exiling is the moment town can start winning.

I'll be surprised if Eddie flips town.

If a governor intercedes, we won't get a flip at all. That would be vexing.

I think each player is absolutely responsible for how they are perceived.

Yes, they are. They are not responsible for how others read such perception as being townie or scummy.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 3!
« Reply #1099 on: May 27, 2021, 01:49:21 pm »

I keep trying to post and MiX comes in and says exactly what I am trying to say.
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