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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 130517 times)

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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #500 on: May 14, 2021, 11:23:40 am »

Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #501 on: May 14, 2021, 12:54:11 pm »

This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #502 on: May 14, 2021, 01:10:20 pm »

Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

I think town!ash does this to put pressure on joth. joth's reaction is NAI.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #503 on: May 14, 2021, 01:13:56 pm »

Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

I think town!ash does this to put pressure on joth. joth's reaction is NAI.

Actually, thinking about it more, I think that reaction is scummy. It has a trace of a flailing feeling to it.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #504 on: May 14, 2021, 03:48:43 pm »

I have no idea what to make of this forced 1v1. I think I've seen Ash make plays and semantic arguments about language like this as both alignments, but o definitely remember it most clearly as scum vs town!MiX several games ago. But, that was a lot later in the game and scum!ash was in a situation where he needed a Hail Mary to win that game, so doing this D1 is just weird. Then reading Joth's responses, I can convince myself it's from either mindset depending on how I choose to read it. Barring an actual result on one of them, I think I would rather look elsewhere for now (not looking right this second, but next time I'm not on mobile I'll will).
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #505 on: May 14, 2021, 07:29:41 pm »

Woah. Time has been completely flying by for me now that work has started. Days go by and I barely notice. Yikes!

I'm super sorry! I'm at work right now, but I AM reading and catching up and will be posting tonight - and I'll make a point of being active over the weekend (even with work!)!
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Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #506 on: May 14, 2021, 08:16:28 pm »

How do we have this little activity in a game where 14 people are alive?

Only 7 are really playing, and if you look at the roster, I'm the most active player, and I'm busy for this day.

The joth vs ash """conflict""" is really bad, but I'm not exactly opposed to a joth flip either.

I was finding joth a bit scummy on day 1. He seems more like town joth to me now, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to have my alignment tied to his the way ash is proposing. That being said, gun to my head, if you asked me who is acting scummier right now, I'd say ash. But I also think its totally possible they are both just town with different perspectives.

Like, does scum ash get combative like this? I've seen town ash do it. Seems like a big gamble to me, like what's the benefit? If ash is scum here, what's his ideal outcome? That we reject his plan but still give him townpoints for having it? That we exile joth then don't follow through when he flips town?

Yes he does.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #507 on: May 14, 2021, 08:33:48 pm »

Reading D2 again so far, and about all I know is that I won't be voting EFHW or scola for today unless they darn near scumslip.  Actually, based off nothing but my gut,

Vote: Didds
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #508 on: May 14, 2021, 09:52:45 pm »

Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.

woweee what a stretch. Ok. I didn't know this was going to become a debate about what words mean.

You can ACTUALLY use wrong to refer to opinions, i.e.

ash: McDonalds is way better than Burger King
joth: You are so wrong

In that situation no one would ever assume I was making a hard factual assertion about the relative merits of fast food. They would assume I was emphatically stating my differing opinion. Which is the sense in which I was using it.

I win.

"Hi, my name is joth, and I like to use false analogies to make ash look bad.  Nice to meet you."

Of course you can use wrong to refer to opinions.  Your McDonald's example does a good job.  Except the conversation we are having in this game is not about opinions, it is about facts.  So, your analogy is misleading and bad.  Instead, look at something like this:

ash: The United States has 51 states.
joth: You are wrong.

That's the analogy you should be making here.  You are saying I'm incorrect because it is common knowledge (for adult Americans, at least), that it's 50 states.

Actually, this one might be even better:

ash: I believe Brad Pitt is 55 years old.
joth: You are wrong.  He's 57.

Here, it's a fact that is probably not super common knowledge.  Maybe you are a Pitt superfan.  Or you googled.  Even better:

ash:  I think Ray Kroc founded McDonald's in 1955.
joth:  Wrong.  Kroc founded it in 1947.  He fought in WWII, came back, and after two years working in his father's factory, decided to start a burger joint.

Joth corrects a fact and even provides supporting facts.  Except it's all lies.  It is 1955.

Voting joth is the only option for any town-aligned player.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #509 on: May 14, 2021, 09:54:45 pm »

Vote: ash

Bold for emphasis even though I'm a tree stump during this timeline

You know me better.

Ash is picking this fight tho. Does scum ash do this? Does scum Joth make this defense by just saying, "unh-uh you must be scum then"?

Like this guy does.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #510 on: May 14, 2021, 09:56:51 pm »

This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.

I am not clearly misrepresenting anything.  The only thing I'm doing is clearly representing.  joth is the one misrepresenting.

I'm happy to include you in the lying list, if you insist.  I take that to mean you are admitting to lying?  I appreciate that.  Definitely awesome of you.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #511 on: May 14, 2021, 10:17:06 pm »

This artificially created 1v1 is annoying. Ash is clearly misrepresenting what joth and gloobie said. I mean I said a lot of the same stuff too, so why doesn't he include me as well in his "lying scum" list?

joth may still be scum, but he's correct that he never asserted 2 scum per TL is absolute.

And ash trying to argue this is either scummy or at best a major, artificially created, disaster.

I am not clearly misrepresenting anything.  The only thing I'm doing is clearly representing.  joth is the one misrepresenting.

I'm happy to include you in the lying list, if you insist.  I take that to mean you are admitting to lying?  I appreciate that.  Definitely awesome of you.

But you are:

Honestly, ash's comment really rubs me the wrong way. In addition to being wrong, it's combative and AtE.

vote: ash

Here's a post in which joth states unequivocally that the 2 non-town per timeline hypothesis is perfect and unquestionable.

Wrong is a binary adjective here (am I using the right descriptor?).  There's only wrong and right, no other options, is what I mean.  As he declares I am wrong, he is declaring also that what I am wrong about is right.  Not probable, not likely, not more reasonable.  Right.  Correct.  Exact.

You claim "here's a post in which joth states unequivocally...", focusing, apparently, on his use of "wrong" here. So what is he responding to (since you don't quote that)?

Well, two posts before that, he also commented on one of yours:

I agree that the two mafia per timeline thing is super terribad and anti-town.  It’s also insulting to the mod.  This is a 16-player setup.  To argue that only four non-town is somehow balanced is yucky. 

You yourself said that this is essentially two games of mafia interlocked with each other. Why is it such a stretch to think that scum would be equally represented in the two games?

So, I think it's fair to assume that the "wrong" refers to this. So which part of are your quote is a fact? I guess "this is a 16-player setup" is there, but it's clear that joth is NOT calling that line wrong. All three other sentences are, in fact, opinions

So, again, trying to claim that joth said "wrong" to a factual statement is at best a misunderstanding on your part, at best a lie. (though a weird one, since it didn't take long to go back and find these posts)

Find a post where anyone has said that the setup is 100% 2 scum per timeline, and not just that it's a fair assumption to start with.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #512 on: May 14, 2021, 10:23:40 pm »

Here's joth:

joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

No, you're the dum-dum head!

Quote
There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.

Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.


Here's Gloobie:

More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.


And here's me:

I generally agree with the thought that 2 per timeline is a relatively safe assumption and a good place to start. We should of course question it until proven correctly, but it does give us info.



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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #513 on: May 14, 2021, 10:26:46 pm »

None of this is meant to be proof that any of are not scum, per se, just that ash is creating this controversy out of thin air. And I don't really understand why.

It doesn't seem like a good play for scum!ash and makes no sense from town!ash. So 🤷‍♂️

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #514 on: May 15, 2021, 12:18:41 am »

The argument is two non-town per timeline or not.  That's what we've been arguing about the entire time.

To me, it's clear that Glooble and joth, at the very least, are stating that there are two non-town per timeline.  I stated something to the contrary and joth said I was wrong.

Could joth be incorrect instead of lying?  That possibility exists.  But if he is making these assertions while knowing someone else is true, then he's lying, and that's my supposition.

His saying I was wrong is an easy example illustrating his perpetuation of the lie itself, which is that there are two non-town per timeline.

(Note, I do not in fact know the number of non-town per timeline.  There could be two, and I could be wrong.  This would be the Brad Pitt example.  But then, why would joth know for a fact the number of non-town unless he is, in fact, non-town?)
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #515 on: May 15, 2021, 12:24:19 am »

Here's joth:

joth and Glooble are the ones that seem scared, flailing, and doing their very best to convince town of a "fact" that is definitely just a random, terrible opinion.

No, you're the dum-dum head!

Quote
There is ZERO proof or certainty that there are exactly two non-town players in one or both timelines. None. Only the non-town teams themselves could possibly know that, and even then, they can't know if there are other non-town players.

So continuing to parade around this lie as truth is anti-town at best and malicious at worst.

Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information.


Here's Gloobie:

More than 2 scum in a timeline is borderline impossible for town. You have to vote unanimously to exile anyone and if you misexile once and then scum succeeds on a nightkill town just loses. There is no way that's the setup. I'm sorry that's just math.

Only one scum in a timeline is the opposite problem, it's virtually impossible for scum to win.

If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline.


And here's me:

I generally agree with the thought that 2 per timeline is a relatively safe assumption and a good place to start. We should of course question it until proven correctly, but it does give us info.

These three posts are not equal.  Equating them is misleading and confusing.

For example, you are discussing the topic as an assumption and even add a caveat about the need to question it.  That's fine and I took no issue with it; hence no discussion of you as possibly lying non-town.

Glooble is pretty clearly stating that 2 non-town is the clear and only truth in the universe.  He even says "there are two scum in the timeline" specific as a requirement for the setup to be balanced.  I absolutely disagree, as there are a multitude of ways to ensure balance with different numbers of non-town players.  But he makes a statement of fact, not of opinion, when he uses "there are" without a "probably" or "I think" attached to it.  He could have said "there should be" or "it is most likely that" or anything.  He chose not to, a specific and direct choice that speaks to his aim and purpose.  He either knows or believes it to be a fact.  This is not an opinion.

The quote you chose for joth is one I responded to, and has nothing to do with his original claims regarding the topic of discussion, so I don't know why you quoted it.  He just says out of the blue that "absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth" even though Glooble did in the post you quoted, and I think he did in past posts, even if not using those exact words.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #516 on: May 15, 2021, 12:25:15 am »

None of this is meant to be proof that any of are not scum, per se, just that ash is creating this controversy out of thin air. And I don't really understand why.

It doesn't seem like a good play for scum!ash and makes no sense from town!ash. So 🤷‍♂️

Also, this is hedging.  Hedging is generally read to be bad.  If you want to choose joth over me, so be it.  But vote.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #517 on: May 15, 2021, 12:26:10 am »

I would ask that I get a chance to respond if I make it to E-1.

I am the innocent one here, not joth.  I speak nothing but truth, or my own opinion of what I feel to be truth.  Can the same be said of joth?  I do not think so, based on the words in his posts, nothing else.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #518 on: May 15, 2021, 12:28:18 am »

Another point for thought:

If this were town v town and I am just wrong, wouldn't mafia be helping this along?  Going with me is a generally safe play and it's easy enough to blame the outcome on me in the end.  I am literally providing mafia with a super easy mis-exile of a usually strong town player.  Mafia have zero reason to distance or defend joth here.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #519 on: May 15, 2021, 12:29:17 am »

Another point for thought:

If this were town v town and I am just wrong, wouldn't mafia be helping this along?  Going with me is a generally safe play and it's easy enough to blame the outcome on me in the end.  I am literally providing mafia with a super easy mis-exile of a usually strong town player.  Mafia have zero reason to distance or defend joth here.

And based on the supposed facts provided by joth, et al., there should be exactly two mafia available to vote for him today.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #520 on: May 15, 2021, 01:13:44 am »

Dude, I did already vote. For you. Ages ago.

You completely ignored the post where I posted actual quotes that show how you are misrepresenting joth's "wrong". (note, not the post with quotes that you did respond to, which was a separate thing)

Re: that 2nd post
From the examples I gave, I quoted the full text so you / others could see the context. I guess I should have bolded the "assumption" parts, but I assumed that would be clear. I just don't get this desire to keep claiming these things when the evidence is there that you are wrong in what you claim joth is saying.

Joth:
"Absolutely no one is saying this is an absolute truth. That's a flimsy strawman and you know it. We're saying this is a reasonable assumption to work off of in the absence of more or better information."

Gloobie:
"If the setup is balanced, there are two scum per timeline. Unless it's multiball or we have neutral third parties of some sort. Which the "non-town" wording of math's power would lend support to.

Still, I think it's fine to start with the assumption of two scum per timeline."

You wrote:
"He even says "there are two scum in the timeline" specific as a requirement for the setup to be balanced.  I absolutely disagree, as there are a multitude of ways to ensure balance with different numbers of non-town players"

BUT YOU CHOOSE TO GINORE THE "UNLESS" CLAUSE, WHERE HE AGREES WITH EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

So, as I've said, it's clear you are trolling, I just don't get why. And you can it hedging all you want to try to add suspicion of me, but whatever. I think it's reasonable to point out that my "defense" of joth is not about his scumminess / towness, but just you tasking out of context and trying to create an artificial 1v1.


Humor me for a bit - pretend you agree with me that you are purposefully trolling. What reasons could you reasonably have to do that as town in a game?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #521 on: May 15, 2021, 03:05:45 am »

If you disagree with my 1v1 argument, why are you taking part?  You clearly are taking joth's side over mine, so you have chosen in the 1v1.  To be clear, that's absolutely fine with me.  It was my suggestion in the first place.  Just stop saying you disagree with the 1v1 or whatever, because you are clearly playing along.

Your defense of glooble is sound, and while I've listed glooble in my suspicions, it's definitely more because of his tie to joth than his statements.  I've clearly been focused on joth here, not glooble.  I still think he made a strong statement of fact that there are 2 non-town per timeline given his own words.  He then adds the unless as a hedge.  It's like "I'm positive I left my keys on the table...unless I'm misremembering."  The first half of that is an objective statement, not a subjective one.  Same with glooble's thing.

As for humoring you?  If I was trolling (by which I assume you mean purposefully doing annoying things for the sake of annoyance?), I would assume it would have to be for laughs?  I mean, why do trolls troll anyway?

If you mean that I am purposefully continuing an argument that I actually know to be flawed/wrong/weak/useless/whatever you think for some reason other than the actual argument I'm making, then I guess others have mentioned that it could be to force reactions from players, gain information by seeing how players perform under pressures or in response to specific claims, etc.

It's none of that though.  If anything, I'd say the closest thing you might recognize would be MiXing.  I know I'm town, I know I'm right, and I won't stop until you believe me or exile me.

The funny thing is, this is so incredibly easy to solve.  Agree to the 1v1.  That's all it takes.  Even if joth doesn't, if everyone else does, we can ensure the exile is him or me.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #522 on: May 15, 2021, 03:33:57 am »

Ashersky (2): Joth, scolapasta
Joth (1): WCD

Not Voting (4): EFHW, Ashersky, Dylan, Galzria

With 7 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 4 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Tuesday, May 18th at 4:55pm Forum Time.


This is what's actually happening today, right?

vote: joth although that's obvious.  That makes it 2 each.  Galz needs to catch up, not sure what EFHW and Dylan are thinking.


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ashersky

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #523 on: May 15, 2021, 08:01:43 am »

Wow.  So much activity.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 2
« Reply #524 on: May 15, 2021, 08:05:18 am »

Maybe I can phrase it differently:

Do you think I'm lying?  Or do you think I'm wrong?

If it's the former, you have to decide why, probably settle on me being not town, and would look to exile me.
if it's the latter, you have to accept that it's possible I'm town and wrong, or that you are wrong and I'm right.

That's if you want to make this about me.  I'd rather you make it about joth.

Do you think he's lying?  Or do you think he's right?  Or do you think he's wrong?  Or do you think it is some mix of those?

Decide what that means to you.  Like, if he's on a 3-person mafia team with 1 in this timeline and 2 in the other, than I'd say he's just lying.  Yes, he's wrong, but being wrong on purpose, so I wouldn't give him that adjective.  But if he's an SK with no further knowledge, then he's lying, but could be right or wrong at the same time.

I guess he could be lying town, but that seems unlikely.  Only very few of us go that route.
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