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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 37391 times)

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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #150 on: May 05, 2021, 01:48:28 pm »

Let me get this italics voting figured out.  We all (not just Active timeline) italic-vote someone.  Then once we reach majority, people on Active (currently Reverse) timeline all cast their votes (for who they wanted, or for the agreed-upon majority)?  What if I'm Active, majority is on MiX, but I want to vote faust?  What happens if I vote faust instead, and then MiX doesn't get exiled because of it?

And then if all Active players did vote MiX in bold, and we realize MiX wasn't Active timeline when vote count comes out so we need to change to next option, but there's disagreement about who the 2nd best choice was.  But then what if that person isn't Active timeline either?  Also, what if Inactive players still cast bold votes to make things look different than they should be (until a vote count comes out) - whether scum, 3rd party, or having an odd role or win condition.  What if we don't get that majority in time for at least 5 people on Active timeline to come vote properly (or for the 2nd or 3rd option if votes don't show up for our first choices)?

Seems like an awfully good scheme for scum to pull, as non-Active scum can help sway the votes, or to hope for No Exile today.  I'm not saying No Exile is a bad idea.  But I am saying that if we do want to do that, we should agree on the idea of "No Exile", not an idea that could draw out a few days of working through the game mechanics rather than actual game discussion and scum-hunting.

Why might No Exile be good for scum?  If I was making this game, I think I would have it 2-2 or 2-1 with some weird abilities of people on scum and town to affect or possibly switch to other sides occasionally.  So if there are 2 scum out of 8, then No Exile *likely* brings next Reverse day to 5-2, with 4 of those 5 town needing to agree on the right scum... that makes it pretty easy for false-claims by scum to draw votes.  I say *likely* because of possible Vig, RB, etc. roles.

So what do I think?
Vote: faust
Reason: I'm reverse timeline.  This will show whether faust is or not.  Let's get votes on everyone intermittently, and through vote counts, just make Timeline claims irrelevant, because we'll have the facts.  Then we know what (and who) we're dealing with. Town PRs (which everyone has one, according to setup post) will know for sure where they are more useful.  Would you rather have 5 or 6 Town PRs know who to target and 2 scum?  Or would you rather many Town be left in the dark, and scum (presumably all 3 or 4 together in night chat) be able to work out a lot more information collaboratively together at night to maximize their effectiveness while some of us shoot blanks?

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scolapasta

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #151 on: May 05, 2021, 02:01:58 pm »

I wonder if there'a any poer that will allow cross timeline voting, either collectively or on or by an individual?
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #152 on: May 05, 2021, 02:31:52 pm »

Vote Count 1.1:

faust (1): mathdude
Not Voting (15): MiX, EFHW, WCD, scolapasta, faust, chairs, hypercube, Joth, Galzria, Ashersky, PPS, Glooble, Awaclus, gkrieg, Dylan


With 8 alive on the ACTIVE TIMELINE, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 1 starts now and ends Tuesday, May 11th at 3:25pm Forum Time.
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Town:  14 wins, 14 losses (1 MVP)
Skum: 7 wins, 7 losses (1 MVP)
3-Party: 4 wins, 1 loss

mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #153 on: May 05, 2021, 02:48:44 pm »

Well, faust and I are confirmed Reverse.
Scola is confirmed Forward.

Any Reverse who want to confirm themselves, vote for me or faust (or yourself).
Any Forward who want to confirm, vote for yourself.

Once Reverse are confirmed, we can start voting more players and then wait for the next Vote Count to find out about them.

Vote: hypercube
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scolapasta

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2021, 02:58:22 pm »

Well, faust and I are confirmed Reverse.
Scola is confirmed Forward.

Any Reverse who want to confirm themselves, vote for me or faust (or yourself).
Any Forward who want to confirm, vote for yourself.

Once Reverse are confirmed, we can start voting more players and then wait for the next Vote Count to find out about them.

Vote: hypercube

And, as you just did, you and faust can choose to confirm whomever you'd like. (my guess is faust won't as he wants the italics plan, but...)
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2021, 03:06:27 pm »

I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.
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gkrieg13

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2021, 03:10:17 pm »

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.

I'm saying that we are all going to have to vote at the end of the day, which will show who is with what timeline anyway.
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gkrieg13

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2021, 03:11:38 pm »

Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

I think I know what you're trying to say but you didn't actually say that with those words, right?

Yes, you are correct. I'm saying letting people pick whether to claim their timeline is a bad idea.
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gkrieg13

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2021, 03:15:06 pm »

I am extremely frustrated and annoyed at mathdude's play.

Agreed. There is really nothing wrong with having a discussion to the merits of claiming before he just does it for people.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2021, 04:06:42 pm »

Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2021, 04:14:10 pm »

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.

I'm saying that we are all going to have to vote at the end of the day, which will show who is with what timeline anyway.
Right, but before that the italic plan works better if we don't know. After today, we will know and that plan won't be helpful anymore.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2021, 04:14:43 pm »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
Well usually once you reach that gamestate there is a bunch of information available to make a more informed choice.
Sure, that's fair.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2021, 05:02:13 pm »

Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.

I actually agree with Awaclus!  It's the potential to be abused.  And the accountability and timing if it does get abused.  Some information deserves to stay hidden (as I explained earlier) at least for a time.  I don't see any good reason why keeping our Timeline secret is a good idea, from a Town perspective.  I can see why Scum might want to.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2021, 05:02:39 pm »

I'm willing to give faust's plan a try. Glooble makes a good point about it only working if other people buy in, but faust makes a good point that the alternative isn't amazing.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2021, 05:11:13 pm »

Faust's plan seems fine in the early game, but later on in the game, it gets increasingly risky because if someone/some people don't follow the plan, there won't necessarily be enough time to make them accountable which means there's less of an incentive for scum to follow it.

I actually agree with Awaclus!  It's the potential to be abused.  And the accountability and timing if it does get abused.  Some information deserves to stay hidden (as I explained earlier) at least for a time.  I don't see any good reason why keeping our Timeline secret is a good idea, from a Town perspective.  I can see why Scum might want to.

Awaclus is right, but I don't think we should do this beyond D1.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #165 on: May 05, 2021, 05:46:56 pm »

We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.

We could just move on quickly if everyone claims Timeline, votes for themselves (or if Reverse, you can vote me or faust), then let's get on with the actual game.

I think faust is scummy. And I know he can be voted for today.  Anyone else have scum reads?
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #166 on: May 05, 2021, 05:50:20 pm »

We're all so stuck on whether this plan is good or not, we're actually not getting anywhere useful. Good job faust. Your plan is working.

We could just move on quickly if everyone claims Timeline, votes for themselves (or if Reverse, you can vote me or faust), then let's get on with the actual game.

I think faust is scummy. And I know he can be voted for today.  Anyone else have scum reads?

Figuring out how to get every last bit of advantage for town compared to doing random stuff is a great way to spend early D1 in a 16-player RMM.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #167 on: May 05, 2021, 06:33:53 pm »

Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #168 on: May 05, 2021, 07:00:33 pm »

Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.

I don't think it does in the early game.
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hypercube

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #169 on: May 05, 2021, 07:48:31 pm »

Hi everyone! Sorry, I had an unexpectedly busy day today - will catch up tomorrow.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #170 on: May 05, 2021, 07:59:48 pm »

Sorry all, this week was a long holiday, so was unavailable.  I've caught up.  Quick thoughts, more later:

1. I agree with mathdude on faust's plan.

It's trivially easy to reveal players' timelines via voting, so long as the mod provides vote counts at a reasonable rate.  scola can do it alone, or with one or two more active players who want to do so.  Using a separate voting system to keep track of preferences is fine, I guess, but we run into the very clear problems that mathdude laid out, specifically the preferred exile being inactive and therefore invalid.  Then what?  That's a wasted day.  Sure, we could be like, welp, let's just do that person when they are active.  But then all sorts of night actions can happen, new information can change opinions, etc.  And so that's bad.  Plus, what do we do today? 

2. I don't like the mechanic, but that's a personal opinion based solely on catching up right now.  Inactive players have little incentive to pay attention when they cannot affect the outcome.  They should pay attention to figure out the game, alignments, etc. but I think if we're all being honest, we can say that most of us are more likely to be involved when we can do things.  So I worry about overall participation.

3. Maybe I'm wrong though and there are cool things planned for the timeline things.  All I remember about the movie is memory loss and tattoos.

4. With 16 players, there has to be at least 4 non-town, but probably more.  I'd say at least 5, if I were designing.  But let's go with minimum.  Then split into timelines.  Now, if each mini-game is 2 v 6, what happens if mafia wins one?  Imagine they run the board in one timeline and we no exile every time in the other -- then we have 6 v 4 overall, but odd interactions.  I'm not sure what my point is here, but I think there is important stuff here.  Something with night actions maybe?

5. What about the QTs thing?  Do we talk about that?
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Awaclus

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #171 on: May 05, 2021, 08:09:06 pm »

Using a separate voting system to keep track of preferences is fine, I guess, but we run into the very clear problems that mathdude laid out, specifically the preferred exile being inactive and therefore invalid.  Then what?

Then we exile someone else.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #172 on: May 05, 2021, 08:20:04 pm »

so we need a fake deadline. fairly early too.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #173 on: May 05, 2021, 08:34:36 pm »

Agreed. But I think I've been clear that it seems faust's plan gives more advantage to scum than to town.
I don't agree with this.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #174 on: May 05, 2021, 08:41:30 pm »

Re ash's #4. This is an interesting point. Maybe there's a third party who can target both timelines.
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