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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 31432 times)

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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #125 on: May 05, 2021, 08:18:59 am »

I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.

I think it's reasonable to literally only vote once the italic votes hammer someone. This, of course, would mean we need to get a deadline that then lets the reverse timeline people to hammer whoever we decided should die (and probably to exile the second option if the exile ends up being forward timeline).

Ok, I missed that detail. But it could leave us scrambling at the end of the day. And the forward people being voted know they aren't in any real danger. It seems very possible that both top two exile choices would be forward.

The plan does try to make the most of our situation and makes forward votes a little bit more relevant. We likely can't do it after today since Day 1 will have revealed a lot of timelines. So I'm ok with the voting part. But saying we'll no exile anyway takes all the energy out of the plan.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2021, 08:32:07 am »


The way I read mod text is that you are not allowed to vote or be voted for if not on the Active Timeline. It's not that your votes or votes on you don't count.

So then I wonder... why is it not already public knowledge who is on which timeline?

What is the difference between those math?

Having just finished a BM game, my mind says anything is possible. I initially read "may not vote" to mean that if someone not on active timeline does vote, there could be mod-sanctions applied. But that seems much less fair if someone who is allowed to vote accidentally votes for someone they are not allowed to vote for, with who is on which timeline not being public knowledge.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2021, 08:35:16 am »

I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Why scum? Maybe a town PR? Maybe mod-controlled based on certain triggers? Maybe random?
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2021, 08:37:58 am »

One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

One clear upside of timeline cleaning is it allowed Town PRs who are only useful against active scum to know possible targets... RBers, trackers, etc.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2021, 08:46:47 am »

Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.

The first assumption seems pretty reasonable. The second seems far less likely to me.

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Glooble's two game observation suggests to me that there is an even number of scum, most likely 4, or two teams of two. Is that balanced for a 16 player game? Maybe there's a 3rd party, too.

2 games of 2 scum in 8 can be reasonably balanced if appropriate power roles are distributed. But the biggest problem is if scum gets full control of one half of the game they get much more power.

And when the game design was adjusted from 18 parts to 16, and our QTs no longer guaranteed to be one person from each of Forward and Reverse... this also makes me think there may be possibilities to switch between timelines.

Still, these are just guesses on my part, not based on any actual game facts/knowledge.
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2021, 08:55:52 am »

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.
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Glooble

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2021, 09:12:39 am »

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2021, 09:31:38 am »

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.

Hmm? Wouldn't math's question be more role fishing? You didn't even need to talk about the post you're quoting.
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mathdude

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2021, 10:20:00 am »

Are your responses based on actual information, or just your guesses? The fact that Glooble mentions the second makes me think that is very much possible this game.

Just my own approximation of such a novel setup and also, as you say, that Glooble even brought it up.

This... feels like role-fishing? I daresay the thought could have occurred to anyone, I don't think it implies anything one way or the other about what's in my PM.

Hmm? Wouldn't math's question be more role fishing? You didn't even need to talk about the post you're quoting.

My question may have been slightly role-fishing. But this is a RMM game and setup had indicated everyone has a power role. So I don't think that's unusual. Each town player will decide if and when and how their role is most useful and the answers to this could change as the game progresses.

A normal investigative role is most useful remaining completely hidden until they get results worth sharing.  Some powers or roles or parts of a role or information gained when clarifying their role may be useful to share now or soon. And when revealing information, some people will need to reveal role to validate information and others can reveal the information as fact without their role, and others may reveal it by using questions or hypothetical situations to promote discussion.

I think the last item has been done already. But as per Glooble's quoted words too, it's also possible some was legitimately questions and thoughts anyone could have had.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2021, 11:06:22 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #135 on: May 05, 2021, 11:07:55 am »

With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
Exactly. don't you see how that massively favors scum?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #136 on: May 05, 2021, 11:10:13 am »

With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
Exactly. don't you see how that massively favors scum?

That's why I think multiball is likely.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #137 on: May 05, 2021, 11:12:09 am »

I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Why scum? Maybe a town PR? Maybe mod-controlled based on certain triggers? Maybe random?
yes, these are all options. I mention the scum option because I think it makes sense and it's something to be wary of.
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jotheonah

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #138 on: May 05, 2021, 11:12:51 am »

I know this isn't a bastard game but, IIRC a big part of the movie is about not knowing YOUR OWN motivations (on account of the memory loss). So I wonder if there's like team switching, or people who are scum and don't know it, or anything like that? Maybe I'm overstretching.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #139 on: May 05, 2021, 11:13:12 am »

FWIW I'm planning to watch Memento this weekend -- I've seen it but it's been years.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #140 on: May 05, 2021, 11:13:19 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #141 on: May 05, 2021, 11:27:46 am »

Is evil psychiatrist a role around here?
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #142 on: May 05, 2021, 11:28:33 am »

Is evil psychiatrist a role around here?

What's psychiatrist?

This question should answer your question.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #143 on: May 05, 2021, 11:29:34 am »

You know, having to discuss if we can even get to RVS before getting to RVS will significantly slow down this day.

I say we should all get our italic votes out there, then decide if we should bold them or not.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #144 on: May 05, 2021, 12:17:56 pm »

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #145 on: May 05, 2021, 12:36:20 pm »

Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.

I think I know what you're trying to say but you didn't actually say that with those words, right?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #146 on: May 05, 2021, 12:48:44 pm »

I think the italics plan by faust is a good one. Obviously overtly helpful faust is scum faust, so vote: faust.

I also don't know if not timeline claiming is a good thing. Not just for the targeting reasons that have been mentioned, but because we will have at least partially timeline claimed by the end of the day when the people from the current timeline vote for the person who has been hammered by italics votes. Not sure if it is good to let some people be unclaimed from a timeline while others get to not be timeline claimed.
The italics plan only works if timelines are unknown.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #147 on: May 05, 2021, 01:23:10 pm »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
Yes this is what I am saying? With 8 people who can vote, probably 2 scum among them, the town (i.e. 6 people) has to vote almost unanimously to exile scum.

This isn't different from any other day with 8 players. I guess we do sometimes no exile in those situations. The way you phrased it, I thought you were trying to say we were in an unusual situation there.
Well usually once you reach that gamestate there is a bunch of information available to make a more informed choice.
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Dylan32

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #148 on: May 05, 2021, 01:41:57 pm »

I'm all for people who aren't in the active timeline indicating their reads and preferences using italics, but I'm honestly not sure what benefit trying to hide timelines serves town.

If the status quo continues and we try to hide that info using faust's plan, (A) we are going to keep wasting time on a mechanical discussion that won't really help us develop reads, and (B) there's roughly a 50/50 shot that our preferred exile is actually not able to be exiled, which will leave us either scrambling or no exiling, which is either trivially bad for town or imho bad for town based on the last RMM that no-exiled D1.  If we finish claiming that, we can move on to actually developing reads and finding scum, and we won't run the risk of building momentum towards an exile that surprisingly can't actually be exiled today.

Also personally, if only half the lineup can vote and the number required to vote is based on that fraction of the lobby, only the half of the lobby that can vote should actually be listed on the vote count, but that's just me.
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scolapasta

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #149 on: May 05, 2021, 01:46:18 pm »

I think establishing timelines during D1 will also be useful, because I have to imagine there have to be some powers that allow you to switch your or others timeline. Maybe they didn't even exist at first, but that was part of the change that instigated the randomized QTs.

I think Dylan makes good points about the waste. Re: if you are active and post an italicized vote, you won't know for sure if it's valid or not. (for those of us not currently active, it's less of an issue, of course)

At the very least, we can prove the case for those who have already declared:

Vote: scolapasta
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