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Author Topic: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins!  (Read 130689 times)

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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2021, 03:18:23 am »

I'm Forward Timeline. So see everyone D2!
There is actually no guarantee that D2 will be foward timeline. Indeed, I would not be surprised to learn that scum gets to toggle the timeline each Night.

Yes there is...

3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

I guess there isn't more than this, but...

One clear downside of timeline claiming is that it allows scum to target the PRs that can be active that Night with roleblocking, killing etc.

So here is my plan: noone votes. Instead, we use italics to Vote: xy. I agree to do vote count for italic votes. If a majority of living players agrees on an exile, then the people in the active timeline try to exile them. Otherwise, there will be no exile.

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2021, 03:23:38 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.

What is the benefit of no exile?
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2021, 03:24:56 am »

Yes there is...

3.   Active Timelines will begin at the Start of Day and end at the conclusion of the following Night.

I guess there isn't more than this, but...
I have received a mod reply that timelines are not guaranteed to alternate.

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2021, 03:27:27 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2021, 04:32:53 am »

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.

The hell does that have to do with what I said! How is this even comparable? What the fuck??

Also I have no idea why that even happened, but you do, so we can't actually talk about this.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2021, 04:33:38 am »

Vote: faust

What is that logic.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2021, 05:28:38 am »

This doesn't work: if town decides to exile someone that isn't of the active timeline, do you expect the following day to consist of that person being exiled and nothing else? What a waste, too.
This is pretty ridiculous coming from someone who has just finished a game where they were prevented from being exiled and continued to not be exiled the following Day.

The hell does that have to do with what I said! How is this even comparable? What the fuck??

Also I have no idea why that even happened, but you do, so we can't actually talk about this.
Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2021, 05:35:29 am »

Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
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faust

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2021, 05:57:36 am »

Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
At least I have a plan and am not just blurting out random bits of information to the enemy.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2021, 05:58:37 am »

but if you wish to expand on why you think it is anti-town, I would be interested to hear reasons.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2021, 06:01:19 am »

Maybe it wasn't best to mention this, so I'll rephrase to say: No, I do not expect that.

Okay then your plan is anti-town.
At least I have a plan and am not just blurting out random bits of information to the enemy.

My plan is to play D1. Your plan is to not play D1. My plan is to attempt to exile scum (and also exile scum), your plan is not to exile at all.

but if you wish to expand on why you think it is anti-town, I would be interested to hear reasons.

Your plan throws away 2 days of voting if we decide on the second day that we want to exile someone of the non-active timeline (and 1 day regardless). By that time, why would it be easier to kill scum? We would just be thinning our numbers.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Game Starts Tuesday!
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2021, 06:06:46 am »

My plan is to play D1. Your plan is to not play D1. My plan is to attempt to exile scum (and also exile scum), your plan is not to exile at all.
This is not my plan. Indeed, my plan allows everyone to play D1 rather than half the players. My plan has a good chance of finding an exile. And no exile D1 in an RMM is not terrible. D1 has a high chance of misexiles, and misexiles are way worse here than normally. If scum ever ends up controlling just one timeline, we have most likely lost because we can never exile scum from that timeline.

Your plan throws away 2 days of voting if we decide on the second day that we want to exile someone of the non-active timeline (and 1 day regardless). By that time, why would it be easier to kill scum? We would just be thinning our numbers.
It would be easier because this is an RMM with supercharged investigative PRs.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2021, 06:23:00 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

Ooooooh I think I misread this. So I thought you were throwing 1 more day.

Okay then it should be...okay. At worst we lose 1 day.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2021, 06:28:11 am »

I did not realize timeline were not guaranteed to alternate. That does change things to some extent.  Also I should have reread the timeline rules before I claimed because I was confused- I thought night actions against characters in the other timeline would fail, which is not the case.

The thing is, for the game to proceed, eventually we’re going to have to figure out who can vote for who. The exile is how town wins, and taking day 1 off really feels like kneecapping ourselves. It’s not just about exile or no exile- Faust’s italicized votes won’t really carry the weight of real votes when we analyze them later. Scum knows what timeline  their partners are on, so this gives them cover to go after each other without risking an actual exile. If we go with Faust’s plan, I don’t think it’s going to leave us with a lot of actionable info going into D2, even if we get a flip.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2021, 06:48:19 am »

Put another way, I think when we try to take people to task for their votes later, a vote is going to be a lot easier to weasel out of than a vote. Also, it removes the pressure vote as a tool in our arsenal- if I’m forward timeline today and I get six votes on me, it’s not going to pressure me into acting any differently, especially since I know that half those people voting for me aren’t real votes anyway.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2021, 07:03:36 am »

It's all a matter of perception really. We can make italic votes every bit as impactful as normal votes if it is understood that a player who got a majority of them is going to be real-voted for. This will not work if people disagree with my plan, but preemptively saying that it can't work is just saying "I disagree with this because I feel like people will disagree with it".
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2021, 07:07:38 am »

Glooble, I feel like your counterarguments are designed for a fictional setting where it's either my plan or a standard D1. This is not the case. With no plan, half the players in this game are disenfranchised, and we also are unable to put any kind of vote on them, pressure or otherwise.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #117 on: May 05, 2021, 07:31:51 am »

Glooble, I feel like your counterarguments are designed for a fictional setting where it's either my plan or a standard D1. This is not the case. With no plan, half the players in this game are disenfranchised, and we also are unable to put any kind of vote on them, pressure or otherwise.

But If everyone knows who they can or can’t vote for, then you can try and lobby players who have a vote today but no strong reads to vote on your behalf. Players are “Disenfranchised” maybe in the purely literal sense of the word, but hardly powerless.

With a full claim, it essentially becomes two separate games of mafia, but scum probably only needs to win one of them to win. If I know everyone in the reverse timeline, I can play this game as if they are the only other players, and everyone else is vocal spectators aligned with one side or another.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2021, 07:33:07 am »

Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2021, 07:53:47 am »

I think we have 5 forward claims already, so if everyone agrees we will be able to exile in forward without revealing more info. Exiling in reverse would of course require more reveals, but it's not clear to me that we want to exile today anyways.
We can't vote for the forwards today. Can't exile them.
I know. this was meant for tomorrow, or whenever forward gets active.

What is the benefit of no exile?
More time for PRs to operate, less info revealed to scum. Also, with only 8 people able to vote, town would have to vote almost unanimously in order to successfully exile scum, and that doesn't seem likely.
It only takes 5 to exile.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #120 on: May 05, 2021, 07:55:56 am »

I'm not necessarily opposed to no exile, but bringing it up this early seems like surgically removing any scumhunting from the day.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #121 on: May 05, 2021, 08:03:36 am »

I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.
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MiX

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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #122 on: May 05, 2021, 08:05:54 am »

I don't think we can expect italicized votes to turn into real ones later. There will be too much new information in the meantime.  That makes them more like FOSs, which are pressuring to a certain degree and allows some scumhunting to happen.

I think it's reasonable to literally only vote once the italic votes hammer someone. This, of course, would mean we need to get a deadline that then lets the reverse timeline people to hammer whoever we decided should die (and probably to exile the second option if the exile ends up being forward timeline).
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #123 on: May 05, 2021, 08:09:56 am »

Glooble's two game observation suggests to me that there is an even number of scum, most likely 4, or two teams of two. Is that balanced for a 16 player game? Maybe there's a 3rd party, too.
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Re: RMM 58: Memento Mafia - Day 1!
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2021, 08:10:18 am »

Two big assumptions here, of course, that have not been confirmed by the mod. 1.) there is a t least one scum in each timeline and 2.) it is not possible for player to jump from one timeline to another.

The first assumption seems pretty reasonable. The second seems far less likely to me.
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