Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 15  All

Author Topic: M131: Quarantine Mafia (Game Over)  (Read 22216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #200 on: September 01, 2020, 08:43:31 am »

I hate signup order so much. But that's a personal thing, other than scum knowing N0 what it is there's nothing wrong with it. I just hate how it can create signup metas.

Given how little posting there's been, I guess my plan doesn't really work and would just get in the way of EoD, so, sure, signup it is.

Well then, why not alphabetical order? Or chronological by forum join date? Or birthday order? There's lots of "random" orders that aren't sign-up order specifically.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #201 on: September 01, 2020, 08:45:40 am »

I hate signup order so much. But that's a personal thing, other than scum knowing N0 what it is there's nothing wrong with it. I just hate how it can create signup metas.

Given how little posting there's been, I guess my plan doesn't really work and would just get in the way of EoD, so, sure, signup it is.

Well then, why not alphabetical order? Or chronological by forum join date? Or birthday order? There's lots of "random" orders that aren't sign-up order specifically.

That's just choosing orders at that point, right? It has the same problems.
Logged

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #202 on: September 01, 2020, 09:04:22 am »

Birthday order is interesting because presumably we don't all know each others' birthdays (though Didds might). But there could be an order based on non-public but hard-to-falsify information that we can choose without knowing what we're choosing, which would approximate randomness.

Of course, people could lie about it. It gets into a weird territory.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #203 on: September 01, 2020, 09:06:17 am »

Birthday order is interesting because presumably we don't all know each others' birthdays (though Didds might). But there could be an order based on non-public but hard-to-falsify information that we can choose without knowing what we're choosing, which would approximate randomness.

Of course, people could lie about it. It gets into a weird territory.

After we do it, it stops being non-public. It's too meta for my taste, but it's possible, sure.

I'd rather do signup order than this anyway-
Logged

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #204 on: September 01, 2020, 11:16:07 am »

The problem with these arbitrary orders (like sign up, alpha) are that scum now them and may be the ones suggesting them). Birthdays in interesting, but sure people could lie.

Also, if we use one of them, how are they better than completely random? Though is there a way for the randomizing person to prove they chose a random order.
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #205 on: September 01, 2020, 12:07:23 pm »

Well then, why not alphabetical order? Or chronological by forum join date? Or birthday order? There's lots of "random" orders that aren't sign-up order specifically.

The problem is that signup order is sort of the accepted standard arbitrary order. If we start debating what order to use, it's no longer arbitrary and that defeats the purpose of using an arbitrary order.

Another problem with the birthday order in particular is that it's personal information that some people might not want to reveal.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #206 on: September 01, 2020, 12:08:30 pm »

Also, if we use one of them, how are they better than completely random? Though is there a way for the randomizing person to prove they chose a random order.

There isn't a way, and that's how signup order is better.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #207 on: September 01, 2020, 12:09:08 pm »

Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #208 on: September 01, 2020, 12:09:43 pm »

Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

EFHW

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Shuffle iT Username: EFHW
  • EFHW="ee-foo". Really, how else would you say it?
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #209 on: September 01, 2020, 01:12:31 pm »

With the chain idea, no matter how the order is determined, we are practically guaranteeing at least 2 deaths and seriously risking 3. It's 3 if the weak doctor is unlucky or if the nk doesn't hit one of the other victims, and they are more likely not to hit someone already dying than they are to double up a death. 4 if everything goes wrong. 1 death if the weak doctor is lucky and the nk hits the CPR doctor's target.

That's probably the cost of doing business, but how does this help us catch scum? If a vig hits scum, then yeah. But otherwise, we won't know anything very helpful.

Here is my pairs idea. I don't know if it is better, but we might want to think about it.

2 ways to die: nk, quack // 2 protectors: Real, jk. // 2 Switch hitters: CPR, weak. // 4 neutral: naive, nurse, 2 scum. If nurse decided to claim, they would be removed from plan.
 
Players A - I. A, C, E, G and I are targeted. Assuming all town deaths for this exercise.

A and B Target C.  C Dies, flips town.
C and D target E. E lives
E and F Target G.  F Dies, flips town
G and H Target I.  I Dies, flips town   
I Targets A. A lives

We can infer a few things.
1. {A, B, G, H} contains at most one protector. If there is a protector, they were jk'd or nk hit their target as well.
2. None of them are the jk.
3. {A, B, G, H} contains the CPR doctor (If CPR was used when needed, then there would only be 2 deaths). They were paired with a neutral person (naive, nurse or scum).
4. F died without being targeted. They are weak or the nk target. G might be scum.
5. I is not the quack. A, B, D and H were not the nk target.

That's all I've got now. Maybe I'll think of more later.
Logged

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #210 on: September 01, 2020, 01:35:10 pm »

Doesn't that pair idea basically guarantee scum NKs someone that isn't being targeted? With the chain, they can only realistically pick who they're picking as well, since we're all doctors.
Logged

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #211 on: September 01, 2020, 01:36:12 pm »

Hmm... I've found a possible problem with all these plans but I don't know if I should say it because it might give scum ideas.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

cayvie

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • old
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #212 on: September 01, 2020, 01:50:38 pm »

i prefer
scola test > no test > anyone else

mix's chain > signup order > any other chain >>>>> triangles > pairs > no plan
Logged
18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

she/her

EFHW

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 78
  • Shuffle iT Username: EFHW
  • EFHW="ee-foo". Really, how else would you say it?
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #213 on: September 01, 2020, 02:10:45 pm »

Doesn't that pair idea basically guarantee scum NKs someone that isn't being targeted? With the chain, they can only realistically pick who they're picking as well, since we're all doctors.

I was thinking they might choose not to in order to sow confusion. For example, if a non-targeted weak doctor dies and a non-targeted nk dies, scum are narrowed down to being one of the two people targeted by those two people. But I guess they could decide to take that chance and prioritize the kill going through.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #214 on: September 01, 2020, 02:21:25 pm »

Hmm... I've found a possible problem with all these plans but I don't know if I should say it because it might give scum ideas.

If there's a problem, we should assume scum has already figured it out too.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #215 on: September 01, 2020, 02:37:36 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #216 on: September 01, 2020, 02:42:12 pm »

Also, if we use one of them, how are they better than completely random? Though is there a way for the randomizing person to prove they chose a random order.

There isn't a way, and that's how signup order is better.


Re: order, I think if we do arbitrary we should aim for as random as we can get.Here's an overcomplicated idea for that:

• Agree on 3 people* who can post at around same time
• Agree on a forum time
•have all three post a number from 1-8 at agreed time, which we can confirm get posted within seconds of each other.
• use those numbers to parse through list (one example, calculate sum, then count that many characters over to the right and order alphabetically by that character)

*could be two, but three would guarantee a non scum, if for some reason important)

Like I said, overcomplicated, but it would be doable.
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #217 on: September 01, 2020, 02:48:28 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

If scum dies, that's already better than the average. Besides, only 1 vig will die, and there's 2. so scum can't actually take away the threat like this. This isn't really a problem.

There's a bunch of ways scum can target, let them figure it out. There's no correct way if we follow my plan.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #218 on: September 01, 2020, 02:55:41 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

That's true, but it's not super unlikely the vig is being protected, there could be two people targeting different scums, and nightkilling the townie who targets you doesn't make you look particularly towny (scum could plausibly do that and get away with it since there are multiple NKs, but it comes at a price).
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #219 on: September 01, 2020, 02:58:12 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

That's true, but it's not super unlikely the vig is being protected, there could be two people targeting different scums, and nightkilling the townie who targets you doesn't make you look particularly towny (scum could plausibly do that and get away with it since there are multiple NKs, but it comes at a price).

Not to mention that in a chain the vig is always being protected, unless scum's also behind them, in which case it's just "scum picks who's ahead".
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #220 on: September 01, 2020, 03:04:06 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

That's true, but it's not super unlikely the vig is being protected, there could be two people targeting different scums, and nightkilling the townie who targets you doesn't make you look particularly towny (scum could plausibly do that and get away with it since there are multiple NKs, but it comes at a price).

Not to mention that in a chain the vig is always being protected, unless scum's also behind them, in which case it's just "scum picks who's ahead".

No? There are only 4 Doctors that actually protect. The chances are pretty good but not close to guaranteed, unless I'm misreading something.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11490
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #221 on: September 01, 2020, 03:06:10 pm »

Re: order, I think if we do arbitrary we should aim for as random as we can get.Here's an overcomplicated idea for that:

• Agree on 3 people* who can post at around same time
• Agree on a forum time
•have all three post a number from 1-8 at agreed time, which we can confirm get posted within seconds of each other.
• use those numbers to parse through list (one example, calculate sum, then count that many characters over to the right and order alphabetically by that character)

*could be two, but three would guarantee a non scum, if for some reason important)

Like I said, overcomplicated, but it would be doable.

If we're going with a plan that involves an arbitrary order, and you don't support signup order, I'm going to assume it's because you're scum trying to manipulate it because the signup order is inconvenient for you for some reason.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

MiX

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 76
  • Shuffle iT Username: MiX
  • It's me.
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #222 on: September 01, 2020, 03:08:02 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

That's true, but it's not super unlikely the vig is being protected, there could be two people targeting different scums, and nightkilling the townie who targets you doesn't make you look particularly towny (scum could plausibly do that and get away with it since there are multiple NKs, but it comes at a price).

Not to mention that in a chain the vig is always being protected, unless scum's also behind them, in which case it's just "scum picks who's ahead".

No? There are only 4 Doctors that actually protect. The chances are pretty good but not close to guaranteed, unless I'm misreading something.

Yeah, but out of the other 2, 1 of them is a vig, so the NK doesn't actually change anything, and one of the doctors (CPR) would actually kill their target if the NK didn't also target their target. So scum killing town that is protected doesn't actually change the chances of that person dying.
Logged

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #223 on: September 01, 2020, 03:31:42 pm »

Re: order, I think if we do arbitrary we should aim for as random as we can get.Here's an overcomplicated idea for that:

• Agree on 3 people* who can post at around same time
• Agree on a forum time
•have all three post a number from 1-8 at agreed time, which we can confirm get posted within seconds of each other.
• use those numbers to parse through list (one example, calculate sum, then count that many characters over to the right and order alphabetically by that character)

*could be two, but three would guarantee a non scum, if for some reason important)

Like I said, overcomplicated, but it would be doable.

If we're going with a plan that involves an arbitrary order, and you don't support signup order, I'm going to assume it's because you're scum trying to manipulate it because the signup order is inconvenient for you for some reason.

Really? I'm just trying to avoid, scum suggesting sign up order because they thought it would be to their advantage. Why would I suggest something complicated and impossible to game as scum?
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

cayvie

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • old
    • View Profile
Re: M131: Quarantine Mafia (D1)
« Reply #224 on: September 01, 2020, 03:45:37 pm »

Well it's just ... One thing scum can do vis a vis any publicly announced plan is they could target the person assigned to target them. Barring successful doctoring or jailkeeping, that ensures that if a vig successfully targets scum, they'll also die. And however many scum we manage to kill in the night, we'll lose that many vigs. Does that make sense?

That's true, but it's not super unlikely the vig is being protected, there could be two people targeting different scums, and nightkilling the townie who targets you doesn't make you look particularly towny (scum could plausibly do that and get away with it since there are multiple NKs, but it comes at a price).

Not to mention that in a chain the vig is always being protected, unless scum's also behind them, in which case it's just "scum picks who's ahead".

No? There are only 4 Doctors that actually protect. The chances are pretty good but not close to guaranteed, unless I'm misreading something.

Yeah, but out of the other 2, 1 of them is a vig, so the NK doesn't actually change anything, and one of the doctors (CPR) would actually kill their target if the NK didn't also target their target. So scum killing town that is protected doesn't actually change the chances of that person dying.

if we test scum d1, or no test, there's a nurse out there too
Logged
18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

she/her
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 15  All
 

Page created in 0.113 seconds with 21 queries.