Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?  (Read 350 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1898
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1264
    • View Profile
When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« on: July 31, 2020, 09:37:52 pm »
0

Does the cost change trigger on when-gain like Watchtower etc., or does it happen before that?

If you could order it with other when-gain stuff, you could gain a Salvager, play it with Innovation trashing a Wayfarer from your hand (for $6 let's say), and then apply the cost change ($4).

On the one hand the cost change does happen when (after) you gain the card, which is also when Watchtower, Innovation etc. trigger. But on the other hand, Wayfarer doesn't say "when you gain a card", it simply says that it "has the same cost as the last other gained card". So I assume the cost changes before when-gain stuff.

I would also expect Peddler to work the same way, changing its cost before Arena (start of Buy phase) triggers. (This could matter of you discard a Village Green with Arena, playing it using for instance Way of the Butterfly to return a Peddler Way of the Mouse to do something with a Peddler.)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:12:19 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

mxdata

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 442
  • Respect: +449
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 10:08:39 pm »
+1

I would also expect Peddler to work the same way, changing its cost before Arena (start of Buy phase) triggers. (This could matter of you discard a Village Green with Arena, playing it using for instance Way of the Butterfly to return a Peddler.)

I think so too, since it says "during your buy phase", and "start of buy phase" is surely part of the phase itself

But I don't follow your example of VG.  Discarding the VG would allow you to play it, certainly, but only that card, so Butterfly would only allow you to return VG for a $5 card.  Am I missing something?
Logged
They/them

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1898
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1264
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 10:15:00 pm »
+1

I would also expect Peddler to work the same way, changing its cost before Arena (start of Buy phase) triggers. (This could matter of you discard a Village Green with Arena, playing it using for instance Way of the Butterfly to return a Peddler.)

I think so too, since it says "during your buy phase", and "start of buy phase" is surely part of the phase itself

But I don't follow your example of VG.  Discarding the VG would allow you to play it, certainly, but only that card, so Butterfly would only allow you to return VG for a $5 card.  Am I missing something?

You're right, Butterfly doesn't work! It would have to be Way of the Mouse playing something, for instance Develop a Peddler.

mxdata

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 442
  • Respect: +449
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 10:52:15 pm »
0

I would also expect Peddler to work the same way, changing its cost before Arena (start of Buy phase) triggers. (This could matter of you discard a Village Green with Arena, playing it using for instance Way of the Butterfly to return a Peddler.)

I think so too, since it says "during your buy phase", and "start of buy phase" is surely part of the phase itself

But I don't follow your example of VG.  Discarding the VG would allow you to play it, certainly, but only that card, so Butterfly would only allow you to return VG for a $5 card.  Am I missing something?

You're right, Butterfly doesn't work! It would have to be Way of the Mouse playing something, for instance Develop a Peddler.

On a related note, is this the first time that Arena's "start of buy phase" would actually make a practical difference from a hypothetical alternate wording "at the end of your action phase"?
Logged
They/them

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8740
  • Respect: +9544
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 02:25:32 am »
+4

I've always read Wayfarer (and Peddler) as being completely different than any sort of “when” trigger that could be ordered along with other events. In MTG terms, it’s more like a static ability than a triggered ability. There’s nothing that triggers and goes on the stack, the cost simply is at all times equal to the cost of the last card you gained. So at any given moment, you look at the card you most recently gained. It never would be ordered along other when-gain triggers.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5801
  • Respect: +23400
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 01:51:32 pm »
+1

Does the cost change trigger on when-gain like Watchtower etc., or does it happen before that?

If you could order it with other when-gain stuff, you could gain a Salvager, play it with Innovation trashing a Wayfarer from your hand (for $6 let's say), and then apply the cost change ($4).

On the one hand the cost change does happen when (after) you gain the card, which is also when Watchtower, Innovation etc. trigger. But on the other hand, Wayfarer doesn't say "when you gain a card", it simply says that it "has the same cost as the last other gained card". So I assume the cost changes before when-gain stuff.

I would also expect Peddler to work the same way, changing its cost before Arena (start of Buy phase) triggers. (This could matter of you discard a Village Green with Arena, playing it using for instance Way of the Butterfly to return a Peddler Way of the Mouse to do something with a Peddler.)
The change happens before when-gain triggers. Yes Peddler also happens before Arena (and after Arena too, if more Actions are played in the Buy phase).
Logged

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1898
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1264
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 04:51:44 pm »
+1

Yeah, like GendoIkari I've always thought (and written) about this as an ongoing state, not a triggered thing. Just wanted to check now that it matters. I would've been surprised if Donald gave a different answer.

You could also ask this about "until the start of your next turn", like Swamp Hag, Gatekeeper etc. If you played Gatekeeper last turn, and your opponent plays Falconer in your start-of-turn window (because you gained a card from Cobbler or something), could you say that the Gatekeeper was still active since you hadn't resolved its start-of-turn end time yet? Obviously the answer is no: the Gatekeeper ends the moment your turn starts.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 05:08:48 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +283
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 04:16:31 am »
0

Actually, I think you picked the one example where the answer is not that obvious. Notice that Gatekeeper says "Until then, when another player...". It's possible this refers to the point in time that the previous "At start of turn,..." effect was resolved.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1898
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1264
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 11:34:20 am »
0

Actually, I think you picked the one example where the answer is not that obvious. Notice that Gatekeeper says "Until then, when another player...". It's possible this refers to the point in time that the previous "At start of turn,..." effect was resolved.

I was thinking that it was kind of obvious considering what Donald already answered. I see your point. But compare to Swamp Hag, Haunted Woods, Guardian and Enchantress. They all actually say "until your next turn". I think it's safe to say that Gatekeeper's ongoing ability works the exact same way, just that Donald found a shorter way to phrase it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 06:52:44 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5801
  • Respect: +23400
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 02:10:00 pm »
+2

Actually, I think you picked the one example where the answer is not that obvious. Notice that Gatekeeper says "Until then, when another player...". It's possible this refers to the point in time that the previous "At start of turn,..." effect was resolved.
It doesn't; Gatekeeper's attack part ends before anything else can happen on your turn.
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 207
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +283
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2020, 04:46:44 am »
0

Thanks!
Logged

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1898
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1264
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2020, 11:06:57 am »
0

There are actually two ongoing abilities that seem to be triggered: Deluded and Envious. The "this turn" ability seems to start "at the start of your Buy phase".

Deluded: At the start of your Buy phase, return this, and you can't buy Actions this turn.
Envious: At the start of your Buy phase, return this, and Silver and Gold make $1 this turn.

I assume these are timed as Arena and Treasure Chest. You can play Village Green off Arena, or play Sheepdog off Treasure Chest, and then use Way of the Mouse to play Black Market before Deluded or Envious kicks in.

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5801
  • Respect: +23400
    • View Profile
Re: When exactly does Wayfairer's cost change?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2020, 02:49:11 pm »
+1

There are actually two ongoing abilities that seem to be triggered: Deluded and Envious. The "this turn" ability seems to start "at the start of your Buy phase".

Deluded: At the start of your Buy phase, return this, and you can't buy Actions this turn.
Envious: At the start of your Buy phase, return this, and Silver and Gold make $1 this turn.

I assume these are timed as Arena and Treasure Chest. You can play Village Green off Arena, or play Sheepdog off Treasure Chest, and then use Way of the Mouse to play Black Market before Deluded or Envious kicks in.
Yes.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.078 seconds with 21 queries.