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AJD

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Develop + Wayfarer
« on: July 27, 2020, 08:25:37 pm »
+2

Okay so it's the start of your turn, Wayfarer costs $6. There are no $7 cards on the board.

Play Develop, trash Wayfarer. I'm supposed to gain two cards "in either order". So it seems like I have two choices:

1. First, gain a card costing $1 less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5. (Wayfarer now costs $5 as well.) Next, gain a card costing one more than Wayfarer—i.e., $6.
OR
2. First, (try to) gain a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer—i.e., $7. No such card exists; the gain fails. (Wayfarer still costs $6). Now gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5.

In other words, it seems like I can choose between gaining a $5 and a $6 or just gaining a $5.

Is this correct—do I actually have a choice? Or is one of these two scenarios actually mandatory?
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mxdata

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2020, 09:46:48 pm »
+1

Okay so it's the start of your turn, Wayfarer costs $6. There are no $7 cards on the board.

Play Develop, trash Wayfarer. I'm supposed to gain two cards "in either order". So it seems like I have two choices:

1. First, gain a card costing $1 less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5. (Wayfarer now costs $5 as well.) Next, gain a card costing one more than Wayfarer—i.e., $6.
OR
2. First, (try to) gain a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer—i.e., $7. No such card exists; the gain fails. (Wayfarer still costs $6). Now gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5.

In other words, it seems like I can choose between gaining a $5 and a $6 or just gaining a $5.

Is this correct—do I actually have a choice? Or is one of these two scenarios actually mandatory?

Develop explicitly states "in either order", so yes, you do have a choice here.  Nothing in this situation would override that clause on Develop

Also, if it happened that you did have a $7 card available, that would mean a choice between getting a $5 and a $6 and getting a $7 and a $6.  It's an interesting quirk of Wayfarer that the choice of order affects what you can get
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AJD

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2020, 12:04:07 am »
0

Okay so it's the start of your turn, Wayfarer costs $6. There are no $7 cards on the board.

Play Develop, trash Wayfarer. I'm supposed to gain two cards "in either order". So it seems like I have two choices:

1. First, gain a card costing $1 less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5. (Wayfarer now costs $5 as well.) Next, gain a card costing one more than Wayfarer—i.e., $6.
OR
2. First, (try to) gain a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer—i.e., $7. No such card exists; the gain fails. (Wayfarer still costs $6). Now gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5.

In other words, it seems like I can choose between gaining a $5 and a $6 or just gaining a $5.

Is this correct—do I actually have a choice? Or is one of these two scenarios actually mandatory?

Develop explicitly states "in either order", so yes, you do have a choice here.  Nothing in this situation would override that clause on Develop

Well so here's the reason I asked: There are a few possible interpretations of what the instructions on Develop can mean. It could be:

i. Choose a card costing $1 more and a card costing $1 less, and then gain the chosen cards in either order.
ii. Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.
iii. Choose either $1 more or $1 less, and gain a card costing that amount, and then gain a card costing the other amount.

We're both assuming (i) isn't the intended interpretation. The way Develop is implemented on Dominion.games seems to be (ii): it gives you a selection of cards to choose from, and then narrows that selection to the other value for the second choice. Interpretation (ii) seems to suggest you must gain a $5 and a $6 in the scenario in question. Interpretation (iii) seems more complicated, but it leads to the result you proposed (i.e., you can choose whether or not to gain a $6), which does seem like the more intuitively appealing result.

Does this change your answer?
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mxdata

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2020, 01:41:10 am »
0

Okay so it's the start of your turn, Wayfarer costs $6. There are no $7 cards on the board.

Play Develop, trash Wayfarer. I'm supposed to gain two cards "in either order". So it seems like I have two choices:

1. First, gain a card costing $1 less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5. (Wayfarer now costs $5 as well.) Next, gain a card costing one more than Wayfarer—i.e., $6.
OR
2. First, (try to) gain a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer—i.e., $7. No such card exists; the gain fails. (Wayfarer still costs $6). Now gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5.

In other words, it seems like I can choose between gaining a $5 and a $6 or just gaining a $5.

Is this correct—do I actually have a choice? Or is one of these two scenarios actually mandatory?

Develop explicitly states "in either order", so yes, you do have a choice here.  Nothing in this situation would override that clause on Develop

Well so here's the reason I asked: There are a few possible interpretations of what the instructions on Develop can mean. It could be:

i. Choose a card costing $1 more and a card costing $1 less, and then gain the chosen cards in either order.
ii. Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.
iii. Choose either $1 more or $1 less, and gain a card costing that amount, and then gain a card costing the other amount.

We're both assuming (i) isn't the intended interpretation. The way Develop is implemented on Dominion.games seems to be (ii): it gives you a selection of cards to choose from, and then narrows that selection to the other value for the second choice. Interpretation (ii) seems to suggest you must gain a $5 and a $6 in the scenario in question. Interpretation (iii) seems more complicated, but it leads to the result you proposed (i.e., you can choose whether or not to gain a $6), which does seem like the more intuitively appealing result.

Does this change your answer?

The FAQ for Develop says "The gained cards come from the Supply; gain them in either order, resolving any abilities due to gaining them also in that order", which in my mind supports your third interpretation.  Anything caused by gaining the first card is resolved before gaining the second card.  Normally this would just be "when you gain this" abilities, but it seems to me that Wayfarer's changing cost would fall under that category as well.  So, you Develop a Wayfarer.  You get a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer, i.e., $7.  This then causes Wayfarer to become valued at $7.  You then gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer, which is now $6.  Or, you gain a card costing costing $1 less than Wayfarer, which is $5, then Wayfarer's value changes, and you gain a card costing one more than $5, that is, $6

There was a similar discussion about Wayfarer and Stonemason's overpay - if you overpay by, say, $3 and gain a Silver, then Wayfarer's value is reset at $3, and the second card you gain can be Wayfarer.  This would be the same thing, wouldn't it?  That is, Wayfarer's cost changing in the middle of resolving a card
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AJD

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2020, 02:46:32 am »
0

Okay so it's the start of your turn, Wayfarer costs $6. There are no $7 cards on the board.

Play Develop, trash Wayfarer. I'm supposed to gain two cards "in either order". So it seems like I have two choices:

1. First, gain a card costing $1 less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5. (Wayfarer now costs $5 as well.) Next, gain a card costing one more than Wayfarer—i.e., $6.
OR
2. First, (try to) gain a card costing $1 more than Wayfarer—i.e., $7. No such card exists; the gain fails. (Wayfarer still costs $6). Now gain a card costing one less than Wayfarer—i.e., $5.

In other words, it seems like I can choose between gaining a $5 and a $6 or just gaining a $5.

Is this correct—do I actually have a choice? Or is one of these two scenarios actually mandatory?

Develop explicitly states "in either order", so yes, you do have a choice here.  Nothing in this situation would override that clause on Develop

Well so here's the reason I asked: There are a few possible interpretations of what the instructions on Develop can mean. It could be:

i. Choose a card costing $1 more and a card costing $1 less, and then gain the chosen cards in either order.
ii. Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.
iii. Choose either $1 more or $1 less, and gain a card costing that amount, and then gain a card costing the other amount.

We're both assuming (i) isn't the intended interpretation. The way Develop is implemented on Dominion.games seems to be (ii): it gives you a selection of cards to choose from, and then narrows that selection to the other value for the second choice. Interpretation (ii) seems to suggest you must gain a $5 and a $6 in the scenario in question. Interpretation (iii) seems more complicated, but it leads to the result you proposed (i.e., you can choose whether or not to gain a $6), which does seem like the more intuitively appealing result.

Does this change your answer?

The FAQ for Develop says "The gained cards come from the Supply; gain them in either order, resolving any abilities due to gaining them also in that order", which in my mind supports your third interpretation.  Anything caused by gaining the first card is resolved before gaining the second card.  Normally this would just be "when you gain this" abilities, but it seems to me that Wayfarer's changing cost would fall under that category as well.

I don't see how that FAQ text discriminates between the three interpretations at all. If interpretation (i) were correct (though we both agree it's not), you'd choose a $5 and a $7, and gain them in either order, and as you did so the cost of Wayfarer would change to $5 and to $7, but it wouldn't matter because you chose which cards to gain already, back when Wayfarer's cost was $6.

Quote
There was a similar discussion about Wayfarer and Stonemason's overpay - if you overpay by, say, $3 and gain a Silver, then Wayfarer's value is reset at $3, and the second card you gain can be Wayfarer.  This would be the same thing, wouldn't it?  That is, Wayfarer's cost changing in the middle of resolving a card

Sure, because interpretation (i) is wrong. But Stonemason's overpay doesn't have an interpretation (iii) at all, since there aren't two different costs involved.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 02:51:13 am by AJD »
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Jeebus

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2020, 10:16:45 am »
0

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect. This means you choose and gain for each gaining effect.  (The exception is cards like Pilgrimage that specifically tell you to choose several cards before gaining them.)

Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

Another rule is that you do as much as you can. If you choose to start with "gain a card costing $1 more" and this is impossible, it fails. You can still choose to start with that, since Develop tells you that you can choose the order of the two gains.

These rules of Dominion can be found in my rules document and are based on rulings from Donald (confirmed for several different interactions).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 12:38:12 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2020, 02:22:52 pm »
0

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect. This means you choose and gain for each gaining effect.  (The exception is cards like Pilgrimage that specifically tell you to choose several cards before gaining them.)

Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

I don't think it's clear that the conclusion ("this means") follows from the premises; why is model (ii) excluded by those premises?

(Model (ii) is "Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.")
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Jeebus

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2020, 04:25:53 pm »
0

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect. This means you choose and gain for each gaining effect.  (The exception is cards like Pilgrimage that specifically tell you to choose several cards before gaining them.)

Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

I don't think it's clear that the conclusion ("this means") follows from the premises; why is model (ii) excluded by those premises?

(Model (ii) is "Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.")

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect.
Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

AJD

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2020, 05:52:00 pm »
0

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect. This means you choose and gain for each gaining effect.  (The exception is cards like Pilgrimage that specifically tell you to choose several cards before gaining them.)

Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

I don't think it's clear that the conclusion ("this means") follows from the premises; why is model (ii) excluded by those premises?

(Model (ii) is "Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, and then gain a card costing the other amount.")

Gaining in Dominion is always each card as a separate effect.
Effects that look at a card's proporties always look at the current proporties (with some exceptions like Ritual that uses past tense).

For Develop this means: Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card's current cost. Gain a card costing $1 less than the trashed card's current cost. (or the opposite order)

Just repeating yourself doesn't actually clarify your reasoning. How does model (ii) fail to be enabled by the rules?

Quote
Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

Let's ignore Wayfarer for the time being for the sake of simplicity; let's say I trashed a $4 card. So here are the possible interpretation of what Develop tells me to do.

(ii) Gain a card costing either $3 or $5. Then gain a card costing $5 or $3, whichever I didn't do the first time.
(iii) Choose one: gain a card costing $3, and then gain a card costing $5; or gain a card costing $5, and then gain a card costing $3.

Obviously in the absence of Wayfarer these two have the same results.

Model (ii) treats each gain as a separate effect. Model (ii) looks only at the current properties of each card at any given time. So I don't see how the reasoning you state leads to the conclusion that (ii) is wrong.
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Jeebus

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2020, 06:50:17 pm »
0

Just repeating yourself doesn't actually clarify your reasoning. How does model (ii) fail to be enabled by the rules?

Quote
Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

Let's ignore Wayfarer for the time being for the sake of simplicity; let's say I trashed a $4 card. So here are the possible interpretation of what Develop tells me to do.

(ii) Gain a card costing either $3 or $5. Then gain a card costing $5 or $3, whichever I didn't do the first time.
(iii) Choose one: gain a card costing $3, and then gain a card costing $5; or gain a card costing $5, and then gain a card costing $3.

Obviously in the absence of Wayfarer these two have the same results.

Model (ii) treats each gain as a separate effect. Model (ii) looks only at the current properties of each card at any given time. So I don't see how the reasoning you state leads to the conclusion that (ii) is wrong.

It was not a complete repetition; I was trying to improve it by putting it in a more logical order. You asked how "choose and gain for each gaining effect" follows from "gaining is always each card as a separate effect". That's what I was trying to clarify. Perhaps what was missing was the rule that "gain a card" involves an implicit choice.

I see what you mean now. I think this would be a question that only applies to Develop. There are no other cards that let you gain several cards based on different prices and in the order you choose.

But I think (ii) is not possible, since "gain a card costing either $3 or $5" mixes up the two gaining effects. Develop tells you to do two separate things, in either order. If it had said "gain a Curse, and return a Curse from your hand to the Supply, in either order", and the Curse pile was empty, there is no reason to conclude that you had to return the Curse from your hand first just because that's the only effect that wouldn't fail. The effects are separate; you choose the order.

GendoIkari

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2020, 12:24:33 am »
+2

Just repeating yourself doesn't actually clarify your reasoning. How does model (ii) fail to be enabled by the rules?

Quote
Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

Let's ignore Wayfarer for the time being for the sake of simplicity; let's say I trashed a $4 card. So here are the possible interpretation of what Develop tells me to do.

(ii) Gain a card costing either $3 or $5. Then gain a card costing $5 or $3, whichever I didn't do the first time.
(iii) Choose one: gain a card costing $3, and then gain a card costing $5; or gain a card costing $5, and then gain a card costing $3.

Obviously in the absence of Wayfarer these two have the same results.

Model (ii) treats each gain as a separate effect. Model (ii) looks only at the current properties of each card at any given time. So I don't see how the reasoning you state leads to the conclusion that (ii) is wrong.

It was not a complete repetition; I was trying to improve it by putting it in a more logical order. You asked how "choose and gain for each gaining effect" follows from "gaining is always each card as a separate effect". That's what I was trying to clarify. Perhaps what was missing was the rule that "gain a card" involves an implicit choice.

I see what you mean now. I think this would be a question that only applies to Develop. There are no other cards that let you gain several cards based on different prices and in the order you choose.

But I think (ii) is not possible, since "gain a card costing either $3 or $5" mixes up the two gaining effects. Develop tells you to do two separate things, in either order. If it had said "gain a Curse, and return a Curse from your hand to the Supply, in either order", and the Curse pile was empty, there is no reason to conclude that you had to return the Curse from your hand first just because that's the only effect that wouldn't fail. The effects are separate; you choose the order.

This reminds me of a fan card someone once posted that had something along the lines of "gain 2 cards costing a total of ". It was basically impossible to work out as worded; because you couldn't tell whether you were allowed to gain a card first (if Poor House wasn't in the supply). There wasn't even a practical model that prevented you from gaining a Province and then failing to gain a card costing -.
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mxdata

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2020, 02:03:45 am »
0

Just repeating yourself doesn't actually clarify your reasoning. How does model (ii) fail to be enabled by the rules?

Quote
Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

Let's ignore Wayfarer for the time being for the sake of simplicity; let's say I trashed a $4 card. So here are the possible interpretation of what Develop tells me to do.

(ii) Gain a card costing either $3 or $5. Then gain a card costing $5 or $3, whichever I didn't do the first time.
(iii) Choose one: gain a card costing $3, and then gain a card costing $5; or gain a card costing $5, and then gain a card costing $3.

Obviously in the absence of Wayfarer these two have the same results.

Model (ii) treats each gain as a separate effect. Model (ii) looks only at the current properties of each card at any given time. So I don't see how the reasoning you state leads to the conclusion that (ii) is wrong.

It was not a complete repetition; I was trying to improve it by putting it in a more logical order. You asked how "choose and gain for each gaining effect" follows from "gaining is always each card as a separate effect". That's what I was trying to clarify. Perhaps what was missing was the rule that "gain a card" involves an implicit choice.

I see what you mean now. I think this would be a question that only applies to Develop. There are no other cards that let you gain several cards based on different prices and in the order you choose.

But I think (ii) is not possible, since "gain a card costing either $3 or $5" mixes up the two gaining effects. Develop tells you to do two separate things, in either order. If it had said "gain a Curse, and return a Curse from your hand to the Supply, in either order", and the Curse pile was empty, there is no reason to conclude that you had to return the Curse from your hand first just because that's the only effect that wouldn't fail. The effects are separate; you choose the order.

This reminds me of a fan card someone once posted that had something along the lines of "gain 2 cards costing a total of ". It was basically impossible to work out as worded; because you couldn't tell whether you were allowed to gain a card first (if Poor House wasn't in the supply). There wasn't even a practical model that prevented you from gaining a Province and then failing to gain a card costing -.

Hmm .... that is an interesting idea, but I can certainly see how it would be hard to find good wording.  Perhaps "Name two cards in the Supply.  If their costs total $5, gain both"?
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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2020, 11:12:05 am »
0


Hmm .... that is an interesting idea, but I can certainly see how it would be hard to find good wording.  Perhaps "Name two cards in the Supply.  If their costs total $5, gain both"?

I think this might work, as long as there is no reaction that works off of naming cards or something that would interrupt this after the first sentence. I can imagine some weird hypothetical reaction like "After another player names a card (after being directed to by a card's instructions), increase all costs by 1."
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Jeebus

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2020, 11:30:45 am »
0

I think this would work: "Choose two cards in the Supply with a total cost of $5, then gain them in either order."
There are no cards where it's implicit that "choose cards" means "choose one, then the next", and here it's pretty clear that you have to make sure the total cost is $5 (if possible).

AJD

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2020, 03:41:57 pm »
0

Just repeating yourself doesn't actually clarify your reasoning. How does model (ii) fail to be enabled by the rules?

Quote
Since "gain a card" involves an implicit choice (whenever that choice is not explicity stated), how can it be otherwise?

Let's ignore Wayfarer for the time being for the sake of simplicity; let's say I trashed a $4 card. So here are the possible interpretation of what Develop tells me to do.

(ii) Gain a card costing either $3 or $5. Then gain a card costing $5 or $3, whichever I didn't do the first time.
(iii) Choose one: gain a card costing $3, and then gain a card costing $5; or gain a card costing $5, and then gain a card costing $3.

Obviously in the absence of Wayfarer these two have the same results.

Model (ii) treats each gain as a separate effect. Model (ii) looks only at the current properties of each card at any given time. So I don't see how the reasoning you state leads to the conclusion that (ii) is wrong.

It was not a complete repetition; I was trying to improve it by putting it in a more logical order. You asked how "choose and gain for each gaining effect" follows from "gaining is always each card as a separate effect". That's what I was trying to clarify. Perhaps what was missing was the rule that "gain a card" involves an implicit choice.

I see what you mean now. I think this would be a question that only applies to Develop. There are no other cards that let you gain several cards based on different prices and in the order you choose.

But I think (ii) is not possible, since "gain a card costing either $3 or $5" mixes up the two gaining effects. Develop tells you to do two separate things, in either order. If it had said "gain a Curse, and return a Curse from your hand to the Supply, in either order", and the Curse pile was empty, there is no reason to conclude that you had to return the Curse from your hand first just because that's the only effect that wouldn't fail. The effects are separate; you choose the order.

I see what you mean; in that case, Dominion.games gets it wrong. Dominion.games handles Develop according to pattern (ii), and in the case I asked about in the original post in this thread, it forces you to gain a $5 and a $6; I just checked.
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Jeebus

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2020, 03:59:24 pm »
+1

I see what you mean; in that case, Dominion.games gets it wrong. Dominion.games handles Develop according to pattern (ii), and in the case I asked about in the original post in this thread, it forces you to gain a $5 and a $6; I just checked.

It would definitely be good if Donald would confirm the intended behavior then. Does Develop follow A or B?

A) Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less. [You have to gain one of those if possible.] Then gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, whichever you didn't choose the first time.

B) Do one of the following:
   * Gain a card costing $1 more. Then gain a card costing $1 less.
   * Gain a card costing $1 less. Then gain a card costing $1 more.

Donald X.

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Re: Develop + Wayfarer
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2020, 02:37:02 pm »
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I see what you mean; in that case, Dominion.games gets it wrong. Dominion.games handles Develop according to pattern (ii), and in the case I asked about in the original post in this thread, it forces you to gain a $5 and a $6; I just checked.

It would definitely be good if Donald would confirm the intended behavior then. Does Develop follow A or B?

A) Gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less. [You have to gain one of those if possible.] Then gain a card costing either $1 more or $1 less, whichever you didn't choose the first time.

B) Do one of the following:
   * Gain a card costing $1 more. Then gain a card costing $1 less.
   * Gain a card costing $1 less. Then gain a card costing $1 more.
It's B. You don't have to pick one that can succeed first. Gains are one at a time and things can happen in-between, including cost changes.
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