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[glennC]

Here's what I have figured out so far.

1a- Putting one card back onto your deck is courtyard-esque and can be really powerful.  This is nowhere as bad as having to discard 1 card.

1b- Mandarin works well with treasure map.  (And when there is tournament/province, etc. etc.)

2- If you buy the mandarin with say only 2 gold, you can setup a province or platinum buy the next turn if you are lucky enough to draw other treasures with the 2 gold.

[Titandrake]

Something important to note is that the card effect of Mandarin is pretty good. Like, very nice at smoothing out draws for multiple-Gold buys good and on par with Gold if not better good. The problem is that the on-gain effect makes it too much of a hassle to buy it most of the time.

If you can get around that it's very nice. Scrying Pool games, Feast, maybe University? If you have a hand of few but high quality treasure cards, it's also not bad assuming the game isn't too close to finishing.

I've never been able to get good results from it unfortunately.

[LastFootnote]

Both Mandarin and Courtyard put a card back onto your deck, but the fact that Mandarin doesn't first draw you any cards makes it play much differently.

For one thing, it gets a lot worse against discard attacks. If you only have a 3-card hand including Mandarin, you essentially have a 2-card hand this turn and probably won't be buying a Province.

Mandarin also suffers from Dominion auto-play. Usually, when I play a turn, whether I have an engine or big money deck, I play my non-drawing terminals last. But with Mandarin, you have to think twice about that. If you already have $8 in hand, why not put that spare Laboratory back on top of your deck for next turn? You just have to keep yourself from automatically playing it before Mandarin.

[Dsell]

I've had an interesting situation a couple times recently where I've opened 5/2 on a mandarin board. Is it worth spending the extra turn buying the mandarin and then going on to buy another $5/$4 card? Is that brilliant or a colossal waste of a turn? XD

[ecq]

I think Mandarin works better as a mid-late game card than an early game accelerator.  It's a terminal Gold, give or take.  Not a bad card to play if you can spare the action/card.  The problem is its on-gain effect.

In the early game, if you see $6, you probably want a Gold.  If you see $5, your treasure quality is probably very poor (5 Coppers, 3 Coppers + 1 Silver, etc).  Top-decking those treasures makes you wait an extra turn to cycle, which is a big penalty in the first two shuffles.  Most of the time, it's probably not worth it.

In the mid-late game, the on-gain effect can work to your advantage, because (a) you probably don't care about buying another Gold with $6 and (b) you're much more likely to see $5, $6, or $7 (or higher in Colony games) with high-quality treasure.  Play 2 Golds, buying a Mandarin and top-decking 2 Golds, hoping to line them up with Province- or Colony-buying treasure next turn.  The down-side here is that you're missing out on a Duchy, so it's a bit situational.  Like Courtyard and Haven, its effect is also quite good at smoothing out hands in the late game (though not as good as Courtyard and Haven).

I still haven't quite figured out the card, but my sense is that it's usually a trap in the early game and situationally nice in the mid-late game.

If you have sources of extra +buy available, I imagine the on-gain could be quite nice with Vineyards as well.  Buy Mandarin + Vineyards, top-decking your Potion for Vineyards next turn.

[jonts26]

I've had an interesting situation a couple times recently where I've opened 5/2 on a mandarin board. Is it worth spending the extra turn buying the mandarin and then going on to buy another $5/$4 card? Is that brilliant or a colossal waste of a turn? XD

I would say usually it's not worth it but there are times when it should be good. Mandarin/Hunting Party is a strong opening. Manadrin/Inn might be ok. Mandarin/Mint with a good $2 might be ok.

[Algebraist]

I've had an interesting situation a couple times recently where I've opened 5/2 on a mandarin board. Is it worth spending the extra turn buying the mandarin and then going on to buy another $5/$4 card? Is that brilliant or a colossal waste of a turn? XD

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1582.0

[Dsell]

I've had an interesting situation a couple times recently where I've opened 5/2 on a mandarin board. Is it worth spending the extra turn buying the mandarin and then going on to buy another $5/$4 card? Is that brilliant or a colossal waste of a turn? XD

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1582.0

Thanks! I knew I couldn't be the only one faced with that decision. I should go back and check the logs to see my win rate when I opened mandarin.

[Zaphod]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating...Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice is a fun opening.  Trash the Mandarins to draw most of your deck early.

Mandarin's power comes mainly from it's on-gain ability, which can be very good if used in the right situation.  Say you play a Wharf chain and end up with 13 coin, and this is the point in the game where you would normally buy Duchies.  Instead of a Duchy, you might want to buy a Mandarin, so you can top-deck those Treasure cards and draw them all again next turn.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating...Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice is a fun opening.  Trash the Mandarins to draw most of your deck early.

Mandarin's power comes mainly from it's on-gain ability, which can be very good if used in the right situation.  Say you play a Wharf chain and end up with 13 coin, and this is the point in the game where you would normally buy Duchies.  Instead of a Duchy, you might want to buy a Mandarin, so you can top-deck those Treasure cards and draw them all again next turn.

Or you might want to buy a Duchy and draw all of your engine components again next turn so you can re-draw all of those treasures AND have an extra Duchy...

[eHalcyon]

1a- Putting one card back onto your deck is courtyard-esque and can be really powerful.  This is nowhere as bad as having to discard 1 card.

That really depends on what you have in hand.  Sometimes putting cards back on top of the deck hurts.  Maybe you have Mandarin+Gold+Silver+Estatex2.  You can play the Mandarin and the treasure to gain a Province, but you also have to top-deck an Estate.  Top decking also slows down your deck cycling a bit.  It can be useful in many situations (like that Laboratory example mentioned above) but sometimes it's painful.

[jomini]

Mandarin strategy is very different depending on the stage of the game.
1: Early game buying mandarin is generally bad. You get to play your coppers again and whatever you put back on deck gets to be played again. In short, mandarin slows you down. There are a few places where a pre-shuffle mandarin is worthwhile, but they are quite limited (e.g. I could see apprentice/mandarin, upgrade/mandarin with high power 6 or 7 card, and maybe gov/mandarin with a high power 6 or 7). Feast/Mandarin is actually pretty good, you can smooth out hands (like an inferior courtyard) and get a good payout.
2. Mid-game. Here you might buy mandarin if you need action-coin and/or you engine can use it. For instance menage/mandarin can increase your cycle speed and hand size. This is where you can start doing cute things mandarin (place tunnel on top of deck), farming village.
3. Late game. Here you are mainly using mandarin as a chance to get your big treasures back on deck for another chance at winning the game. As you can normally buy a duchy, this means that you really need to consider if a better chance at hitting your price point is better than just taking 3 points now and hopefully 3 points next turn. For instance, I'll buy mandarin to put back silver/plat in hopes of hitting one of the last two colonies; I'd most likely go for the duchy in a province game. If I'm hunting alternate VP I would only consider this if I'm hitting massive fairgrounds (e.g. an 8 or 10 point fairground from the BM deck) and hit 5.

In general, mandarin is essentially a silver that allows you to smooth near price points. Yeah, you might offload an estate into your next turn, but you have to draw it again.

[eHalcyon]

In general, mandarin is essentially a silver that allows you to smooth near price points. Yeah, you might offload an estate into your next turn, but you have to draw it again.

You mean it's a Gold, right?

[Davio]

While it gives the same amount of $ as Gold, I would argue it's closer to a Silver in practice.

[eHalcyon]

While it gives the same amount of $ as Gold, I would argue it's closer to a Silver in practice.

Because it is a terminal action?

[theory]

Also because you have to put a card back on your deck.

[michaeljb]

In my second game with mnavratil in IsoDom Challenge Round 1, I bought a Mandarin here to kick back a pair of Fool's Golds to my next turn (which turned into a double Province turn), and the two times I played Mandarin it brought me from $5 to $8. (I did put back a Copper the first time, and I think it was a Thief the second time)

So I'd say if you're running Fool's Golds but only draw two, and know you've got some left in your draw pile, Mandarin's on-gain effect is definitely worth it.

[Asklepios]

I guess one thing to point out is that unless you're setting up trash-for-benefit, there's a lot of danger in taking more than two Mandarins, as the clashing terminals problem is exacerbated by the return-a-card clause, but that that same clause in itself can avoid the clash if you have no more than two terminals to deal with.

I'd also agree that mandarin goes well with fool's gold, especially as mandarin + 2 fools gold generates enough money for a province, and mandarin + 1 fools gold lets you put the fools gold back for next turn, and because two fools gold + no mandarin lets you buy a mandarin, then stack the fools golds back!

[Davio]

Also because you have to put a card back on your deck.

Yes, especially when you're putting a Copper back or an Estate.
If you put a Copper back, it really is a Silver. (+3-1 = 2! QED)
If you put an Estate back, your next hand will have a dead card, so your future buying power decreases.

[eHalcyon]

Yes, especially when you're putting a Copper back or an Estate.
If you put a Copper back, it really is a Silver. (+3-1 = 2! QED)
If you put an Estate back, your next hand will have a dead card, so your future buying power decreases.

But you might also be able to put back a dead action that can be useful next turn, or an extra Silver or Gold if you have surplus coin with the Mandarin hand.  Is it simply more likely to have negative cases than positive cases?  Relatively speaking, it is certainly worse than Courtyard in this case since the latter comes with +cards.

[Davio]

I'm not saying that the effect is more negative than positive.

I'm just saying you should not think you can get a full Gold's value out of it. It's $5 and not $6 or $7 for a reason.

[Fabian]

The put back a card effect of Mandarin is most definitely a negative in the vast vast majority of decks, and in the majority of decks where people buy Mandarin. Then there's the rare exception of course.

[rinkworks]

Both Mandarin and Courtyard put a card back onto your deck, but the fact that Mandarin doesn't first draw you any cards makes it play much differently.

This is worth highlighting and explaining.  The key difference is that Courtyard offers net positive deck cycling, meaning that even though part of resolving the card is putting a card back, you're still cycling faster by playing it and getting to your new buys faster.

With Mandarin, the cycling is a net negative, meaning you're cycling through your deck slower than if you had some other card instead, even if that other card offered zero cycling benefit of its own.

It's perhaps an obvious distinction, but one that seems to be ignored a lot of the time when Mandarin and Courtyard are compared.

However, possibly this weakness of Mandarin can be used to advantage.  In the end-game, cycling is a bad thing, because you'll be racing through to the green cards you're buying.  Picking up a Mandarin in the late game would slow this down a little.  It would also smooth out your treasure draws at the exact stage of the game when smoothing is most useful.  Moreover, the on-buy effect could be employed strategically in the end game to use a $5-$7 turn to increase the chance of $8 next turn.  The conclusion?  If Mandarin has any utility at all, it's probably in the end game -- in stark contrast to Courtyard, which is probably best bought early.

[jomini]

Mandarin slows your cycling with both its "place a card" and with its "when you buy"; this hurts most of the time ... as it should. Afterall cache and contraband have the same payout but their negative effects are pretty harsh as well so even though mandarin costs an action, it seems to be inline with those negatives.

Now like cache, you can sometimes find synergies for using the negatives in a positive fashion (e.g. cache/traders is a very strong setup); likewise mandarin can setup some cute  Most of the time though it is a silver that smooths so you can put back coppers or other actions to get exactly to the price point you want. This is normally not worth the "replay your previous turn" slowing effect on gain, but is fine with feast or university. Late game its single biggest drawback is that it competes directly with duchy. Getting a second shot a province sounds nice, but only in the sweet spot of "I'll likely make the province, but wouldn't make a second duchy"; colonies and fairgrounds can both drastically change the risk/reward calculations.

[glennC]

Perhaps courtyard is a stronger card later in the game?  Suppose you look at it purely as $/turn (ignoring deck cycling effects).  If your money density is $1/card on average, then courtyard will draw $3.  (Both Mandarin and Courtyard will kind of draw less than $3 since you have to put a card back on your deck.)  If your money density is more than $1/card, then Courtyard will be drawing more money.  This is more likely in the mid and endgame.