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Author Topic: Proposal to stop using "lynch"  (Read 15396 times)

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shraeye

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2020, 10:45:41 am »

Trashed is nice.  Then the spectator QT can be called the Trash Mat.
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jotheonah

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2020, 10:57:10 am »

Trashed is nice.  Then the spectator QT can be called the Trash Mat.

This is going to get confusing in drunk mafia though.
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jotheonah

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2020, 10:57:24 am »

...because we're all trashed by the end
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2020, 01:07:53 pm »

I've only just spotted this thread, and I'm fully in support of a change in terminology.

The group I used to play IRL-Werewolf with back in the day picked "guillotine" as the new "lynch" when they made the switch ~10 years ago, and that seemed to work fine when people got used to it.
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jotheonah

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2020, 02:01:49 pm »

The more I think about it, the more I like exile because it actually removes the moral equivalency between town and scum that's always bothered me. Like, theoretically we're the good guys and they're the bad guys, but we kill just as many people as them. Maybe some people enjoy that irony; certainly there's something edgy and satirical about it in a Catch-22 sort of way. But personally I like the idea of having games where the "good guys" get rid of people in some other way than killing.
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2020, 02:11:47 pm »

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2020, 02:42:00 pm »

The more I think about it, the more I like exile because it actually removes the moral equivalency between town and scum that's always bothered me. Like, theoretically we're the good guys and they're the bad guys, but we kill just as many people as them. Maybe some people enjoy that irony; certainly there's something edgy and satirical about it in a Catch-22 sort of way. But personally I like the idea of having games where the "good guys" get rid of people in some other way than killing.

I actually like the life and death struggle of the town kills. The stakes aren't high enough with exile. Am I the only one who enjoys the playing around with death and murder? Never thought I'd be typing that!
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2020, 03:06:52 pm »

Remove

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EFHW

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2020, 03:10:03 pm »

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo
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MiX

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2020, 03:11:47 pm »

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2020, 03:30:45 pm »

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?

It’s slang for cancel. Restaurant servers will say “nix the pickles” to mean leave them off.
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cayvie

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2020, 12:56:35 am »

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

This is good
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2020, 01:38:03 pm »

I'm a big fan of trash. Guillotine is nice and flavourful but annoying to have to type all of the time.
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2020, 02:25:46 pm »

I'm glad to see this being discussed here. I can't say this is the main reason I stopped playing mafia but it definitely put me off. I'm also part of a community that's been talking about playing mafia online for a while and this has been my big reservation for suggesting joining a forum game.

LaLight

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2020, 06:51:59 pm »

I'm glad to see this being discussed here. I can't say this is the main reason I stopped playing mafia but it definitely put me off. I'm also part of a community that's been talking about playing mafia online for a while and this has been my big reservation for suggesting joining a forum game.

oh hi!

also, I definitely am prochange and proExile.
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LaLight

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2020, 06:52:31 pm »

trash and guillotine are slightly negative for me. Especially trash.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2020, 02:34:45 am »

I don't know enough about the politics etc behind this to comment (I was somewhat surprised to learn that lynch is a problematic enough word to want to change), but I'm definitely in favour of making it easier to invite new players.

Thoughts on some of the suggestions.

Exile: It's probably one of the better suggestions so far, but I don't love it for a couple of reasons. In the context of a game, exile sounds temporary to me. If I saw that someone had been exiled I would wonder how long that lasted. The other thing is that changing the lynch to a non-kill seems to effect flavour quite a bit. I can imagine that in some settings exiling players just doesn't make sense, either because the flavour is around killing/combat or because there's nowhere for the exiled player to go. Also, terms like "Living players", "Dead players" etc would have to be changed. Also, learning a player's alignment because they went away makes even less sense than learning it because they died; why can't you just get them to come back?

Convict: As Joseph mentioned, convict has sometimes been used as a somewhat derogatory term for Australian. I probably would have mentioned it if he hadn't, but I don't think it's a major issue. I've only heard it used as a below-the-belt insult by "Barmy" English cricket supporters. Perhaps it is a bigger issue than that here or elsewhere; I'd probably want to look into it more. Another potential issue is that convicts and ex-convicts are an actual group of people. Actually the more I think about it, the more I think "You're going to be Today's convict" is not really what we want to be saying.

Eliminate: Probably okay. It will be strange to contrast being eliminated to being nightkilled, as you are eliminated either way.

Execute: No one has suggested this here, but it makes the most sense to me. It keeps the death, is distinct from nightkills and makes no comment on the type or legality of the execution, allowing flexibility for the flavour. Possibly sounding graphic works against it.

I don't really like the wackier options like trash, nix, behead etc.


I also feel bad for Jimmmmm who is just launching a site and has presumably paid for the domain name, etc. But I do think he needs to have this conversation too and should do it sooner rather than later, especially if he's hoping to build a community of his own on his site. I'd be happy to participate in a thread over there to help Jim brainstorm new names.

Thinks for thanking of me! The cost and effort of changing the domain name will be a minor inconvenience. I'm happy to do it but not until we're very confident about whatever decisions are made. Help to come up with a new name will definitely be appreciated. Probably what happens there will follow what happens here, although while I can give mods the option to choose, there will need to be a default.
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2020, 02:07:21 am »

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?

a MiX!nix!
I don't even care if that is what we end up choosing, I am running with it :P
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2020, 02:11:23 am »

maybe we could trial run it like we did the BM games a few months back? we could run a few standard set ups with the title being - "new lynch word" Mafia! - see what sticks? maybe make it like a rule? I know that is tech a posting restriction but if it was in the set up like "you may vote a player at any time by posting WORD: Player... or something like that?
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faust

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2020, 03:29:10 am »

maybe we could trial run it like we did the BM games a few months back? we could run a few standard set ups with the title being - "new lynch word" Mafia! - see what sticks? maybe make it like a rule? I know that is tech a posting restriction but if it was in the set up like "you may vote a player at any time by posting WORD: Player... or something like that?
I don't think we need to change the current Vote: Swowl format, people have been writing code for that and all, and vote is nice, short, hard to misspell and unproblematic.

It's really up to the mod to what extent to enforce this, mods can pick the word they want to use for the official announcements but I don't think it makes much sense to have rules for how people refer to it in their posts. We have no rules for pronouns and the community seems to for the most part do fine in pointing out misgendering, this can be similar.
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pubby

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2020, 09:29:11 am »

"Eliminate" does not convey that the kill was done by town - i.e. it could also describe nightkills as well. A word like "exile", "execute", or "behead" would be more fitting.

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.
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shraeye

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2020, 02:39:18 pm »

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.

The number of people who are actively supporting this change and seeking solutions suggests that this offense is not an invention. Using historically inappropriate language is uncomfortable to me and others.

I never have had any ill intentions when using 'lynch' in this game, and I suspect no player here did either. But that doesn't mean a less-charged word is a bad goal.
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yuma

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2020, 03:19:50 pm »

 
"Eliminate" does not convey that the kill was done by town - i.e. it could also describe nightkills as well. A word like "exile", "execute", or "behead" would be more fitting.

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.
::)
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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2020, 06:11:56 pm »

It will probably not surprise those of you who know me from IRL that I lean more toward the leave-it-as-is camp, and am somewhat skeptical of efforts to change language to better reflect newly-discovered sensitivities in general. That said, it seems clearly to be the case that most people would rather use a different word, and there's really no reason to not do what most people want. Like, this community doesn't exist for its own sake, it exists to please the people who participate in it. So if changing the word pleases an overwhelming number of people, we should do that. I would potentially recommend conducting some kind of anonymous poll, though, to make sure there aren't a large number of people with strong feelings that aren't voicing them here, for whatever reason.

I guess that's just if you're going to have one new standard word—obviously we can, and perhaps should, simply leave it to the discretion of individual game moderators. I do think the universality of some of our key terms—lynch, nightkill, shot, wagon—is extremely useful and it's sort of unfortunate they are tied up in violent imagery that is potentially offensive!

On that subject, I can understand why "lynch" is specifically a bridge too far. The "theme" of mafia is definitely suspicious and paranoid villagers wrongfully killing people, though. You'd really have to sanitize virtually all the flavor to make that no longer the case, to a degree that I find somewhat alarming. I don't think the fact that the town is executing people, and the scum are shooting them, should really be taken as some kind of problematic endorsement of violence. That starts to go into a "violent video games / comics are bad because violence is bad" "won't someone think of the children" kind of moral panic that I really do oppose. I mean, there's a Pillage card in Dominion, but it would be quite crazy to take this as some kind of endorsement or encouragement of pillaging. I do not think Donald X is soft on the issue of wartime theft and property destruction. (I also would agree in general with faust's point that state-sanctioned executions are not necessarily morally superior.)

Again, I'm not trying to say, "Well we can't stop using 'lynch' because where does that end, slippery slope," because we can in fact just end it after that! So I would be for doing that.

As for a new word, the most important thing is to have something short—we use this word a lot—that can be a noun and a verb, and differentiated from the nightkill. Exile is not bad, though mis-exile is sort of an inelegant construction. The best I can come up with that's not mentioned yet is the word fire. I.e. "the town fired ashersky, ashersky was misfired, you were on the fire wagon." It even has the subtle burned-at-the-stake thing going for it, which again I think is a totally permissible part of mafia's theme.

Just some thoughts!
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raerae

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Re: Proposal to stop using "lynch"
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2020, 06:37:26 pm »

There's a reason I rarely correct my auto-correct and I'm glad words are finally being put to it. I like fire, eliminate, and exile in that order.  This is a good discussion, y'all are good people.
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