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[EFHW]

Hi everyone.  In the light of current events, I am getting less and less comfortable with our using lynch in our games. I have always noticed feeling uncomfortable when I tell someone else about how mafia works. I didn't feel moved to say anything about it here  until now, though. The dark flavor, evoking an angry mob, is part of the game, but referencing past tragedies in a playful way feels wrong. Can we find something else? It can still be dark and anarchic. Maybe something closer to mafia flavor, like "off" or "eliminate"? Or evoke the French Revolution, which is hopefully no longer a sensitive issue for people, and say "behead"?

[2.71828.....]

"head them off to the guillatine"

I would definitely be on board with a change.

[scolapasta]

I'm on board for the change.

If we want something less bloody there's always just "convict", since we are trying to bring the mafia to justice.

[Archetype]

I live in the Deep South and whenever I host IRL I almost never say “Lynch” for similar reasons. It definitely feels worse than when typing it out. I usually substitute with a generic “vote to kill someone” but even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

[2.71828.....]

even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

I like the idea that flavor of a game can change what the daily "kill by vote" could be called.

However, a commonly accepted generic term is also important

[Dylan32]

even something unique to the flavor of the setup you’re playing could be fun.

I like the idea that flavor of a game can change what the daily "kill by vote" could be called.

However, a commonly accepted generic term is also important

In my mind, the most seamless generic term would be just "eliminate."

Or (not serious alternative) we take them out for lunch.

[2.71828.....]

Or (not serious alternative) we take them out for lunch.

I mean, that is what I get on autocorrect all the time

[sudgy]

I am always against wording changes unless it's because the language itself has changed.  It alters history, increases cognitive overhead, and is a slippery slope.

In general, I don't like changing the words we use because they might seem "offensive".  Let's say we remove "lynch" entirely from the English language.  We might start forgetting about the awful things that happened in our past, which could cause us to not remember to not do them again in the future.  All history, both bad and good, must be preserved, and when we remove words, we are removing history, even if that's not your intention.

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

If we change lynch, shouldn't we also change the cop role because of recent events?  Maybe we should rename doctor because it might bring back memories of covid-19.  When you start changing names, everything can change, compounding the above issues.

I'm sure all of you will just say that these are petty things and that I'm just stupid (or euphemistic words such as "misguided", but those are the same thing here).  Anyway, I've said my piece.  I'm not going to reply because I've learned that political discussions are completely fruitless and are a waste of time, effort, energy, and emotions.  Also, I feel like this thread either belongs in RSP or will need to go there soon.

[2.71828.....]

While I agree a large portion of this conversation does belong in RSP, I think one of the biggest things that I would argue (disagree?) with EFHW over in the OP is the phrase "in light of recent events"

Lynch mobs, public lynching, "insert word here" lynch refers to and (to the best of my knowledge which is limited at best) always has referred to extra-legal mob justice. I do not think that this accurately describes what occurs in a game of mafia. It is much more a public hearing of the lawfully gathered to find and destroy a nefarious enemy that has infiltrated town. Almost as though we are the assembled village elders doling out justice (that we sometimes get wrong). So in that sense, "Lynch" does not apply at all by any definition that I have ever heard for the word.

Basically, changing the vocabulary we use in mafia would simply be agreeing on a word that more accurately describes the situation.

[Archetype]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

[Dylan32]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

The counts might not be incorrect, but the script writers would still have to go in and edit them to correct the output which usually would include a phrase like "with x alive, it takes y to lynch." Also "Vote: No lynch" would have to be changed.  So there is some work that would be involved on that side of things.

[Archetype]

Changing words in general causes issues with the way we think.  We have to constantly remind ourselves to use the "correct" term.  I also know that some people here have written scripts to automate things like vote counts.  People are going to have to change their scripts, or worse, forget to change them, and possibly get incorrect counts.  I prefer consistency over fluid names.

I am unsure how any vote count scripts would receive incorrect counts. I believe that would only happen if there was inconsistency around the specific wording for Vote:.

I understand the desire to preserve history, especially for games meant to model history. However, I think that how we play Mafia here now has already gotten away from the original historical reference which I think does make this a valid discussion to have (even if it may end up being RSP).

The counts might not be incorrect, but the script writers would still have to go in and edit them to correct the output which usually would include a phrase like "with x alive, it takes y to lynch." Also "Vote: No lynch" would have to be changed.  So there is some work that would be involved on that side of things.

You’re correct that no lynch would need to be changed, but I didn’t disagree about whether other non “counts” wording changes would need to be made.

[Dylan32]

Yeah I think I read into your comment more than what is actually there with how I phrased my response, like you were saying that the vocab change wouldn't actually necessitate changing the scripts because the counts would still be right.  I see that wasn't at all what you were saying, so sorry about that.

[Archetype]

Yeah I think I read into your comment more than what is actually there with how I phrased my response, like you were saying that the vocab change wouldn't actually necessitate changing the scripts because the counts would still be right.  I see that wasn't at all what you were saying, so sorry about that.

You’re all good! The No Lynch choice is still a good point to raise.

[Awaclus]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

[cayvie]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

I mean it doesn't have to be about that, though. Replacing it with "Exile" for example.

[EFHW]

We also want this to be an inclusive environment,  so something less freighted with our country's racist past and present could help. The recent events are relevant in that they tipped me past the threshold of deciding to say something.

[EFHW]

The game really does have an odd mix of judicial/extrajudicial in it. "Lynch" and "wagon" evoke an angry mob, mob also is another word for mafia, and we have civilized votes and rules everyone follows! And a civility pledge!

I disagree that cop or doctor come anywhere near the provocation that the word lynch can cause.

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

[Awaclus]

A trial would be fun, like Danganronpa.

[scolapasta]

The game really does have an odd mix of judicial/extrajudicial in it. "Lynch" and "wagon" evoke an angry mob, mob also is another word for mafia, and we have civilized votes and rules everyone follows! And a civility pledge!

I disagree that cop or doctor come anywhere near the provocation that the word lynch can cause.

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

That's why I like vote to convict. Convicting someone leads to twilight, governor can pardon, and if they don't then they get the death sentence, leading to night.

[faust]

The death aspect seems like it may be important.  A macabre dark humor we play with. We could use death sentence or sentence to death instead of lynch. Mistrial instead of no lynch.

I am happy to change the word "lynch" if it makes people feel more comfortable, however I don't find a death sentence any more moral than a lynching, and I believe it is similarly racially charged when looking at the US.

[faust]

Well, Mafia is a game of extrajudicial killings, which is inherently a very disgusting, uncomfortable and unacceptable thing. It isn't just past tragedies either, it's a thing that still happens. I'm not opposed to revamping the flavor of the game such that players can feel more comfortable — I am, however, strictly opposed to making extrajudicial killings seem more comfortable by changing just the language, as if the string of letters that is "lynch" is bad but we're totally okay with unlawful executions in general.

I mean it doesn't have to be about that, though. Replacing it with "Exile" for example.

So I think my vote goes to this proposal.

Vote: Exile

[Joseph2302]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

[Awaclus]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

It doesn't mean anything racial, there just were a lot of racist lynchings in burgerland.

[WestCoastDidds]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

Lynching is a really problematic past in the US. Blacks people were regularly accused of crimes that they didn’t commit, or just not being deferent enough to the people who had power over them, rounded up and hanged. It was often like a neighborhood party, everyone watched, including children. Picnics below a swinging body. Then photographs were taken and circulated. And this was long, long ago....this was still happening in our recent past. There are some older folks who remember attending. It is a term profoundly wrapped up in an ugly, violent, murderous, racist history and to this day used as a threat, and felt as a threat in black communities. So, George Floyd, being kneeled on while others looked on....modern day lynching.

I am 1000x behind his change. Whenever I’m talking to my kids about what is happening in a game, I change the words. Voted them off the island is what I say, because they know Survivor. I’m okay with anything, though.

Regardless of whether or not we change collectively, I will.

[Glooble]

I came here to make this thread, so I'm so happy to see someone else made it already.

[Glooble]

I have been thinking about this a lot. For me what its about is just making sure this community is welcoming to everyone. And when I think about my gamer friends who are black, I can't imagine myself inviting them to this community while that term is being used.

[Joseph2302]

Can someone explain why lynch is considered offensive? I see it as a reference to witch trials like Salem, which doesn't have any racial connotations. Maybe it means something racial in other countries

Lynching is a really problematic past in the US. Blacks people were regularly accused of crimes that they didn’t commit, or just not being deferent enough to the people who had power over them, rounded up and hanged. It was often like a neighborhood party, everyone watched, including children. Picnics below a swinging body. Then photographs were taken and circulated. And this was long, long ago....this was still happening in our recent past. There are some older folks who remember attending. It is a term profoundly wrapped up in an ugly, violent, murderous, racist history and to this day used as a threat, and felt as a threat in black communities. So, George Floyd, being kneeled on while others looked on....modern day lynching.

I am 1000x behind his change. Whenever I’m talking to my kids about what is happening in a game, I change the words. Voted them off the island is what I say, because they know Survivor. I’m okay with anything, though.

Regardless of whether or not we change collectively, I will.

Okay based on that, I support changing the terminology

[gkrieg13]

Also something to note is that many sites are changing their terminology including mafia Universe, which is probably the largest community.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also something to note is that many sites are changing their terminology including mafia Universe, which is probably the largest community.

What did they move to?

[Joseph2302]

Also something to note is that many sites are changing their terminology including mafia Universe, which is probably the largest community.

What did they move to?

Eliminate

[yuma]

Change is good. I am in favor

[A Drowned Kernel]

Change is good. I am in favor

[jotheonah]

I support this.

To me, the salient thing about whatever word replaces lynch is not only that it conveys elimination from the game, but that it is a distinct kind of elmination from the game as opposed to nightkills (which we often shorthand to kills). It needs to be a non-cumbersome verb that conveys the sense of "sentenced to death by majority vote". It's actually not important to me that the flavor be an extrajudicial killing because I've never thought of the town weapon as extrajudicial. The town is the jury, they decide democratically who to eliminate from the game.

I think something like convict/execute/exile would be fine. I worry about "eliminate" because it's not particularly distinct from the language we would use to talk about the nightkill.

I also feel bad for Jimmmmm who is just launching a site and has presumably paid for the domain name, etc. But I do think he needs to have this conversation too and should do it sooner rather than later, especially if he's hoping to build a community of his own on his site. I'd be happy to participate in a thread over there to help Jim brainstorm new names.

[jotheonah]

And I want to give kudos to EFHW for speaking up about this. It's not always easy to challenge a longstanding community norm.

[mail-mi]

I think I'm partial to exile myself. It's a nice, short replacement that also works for "No Exile" and "mail-mi has been exiled! He was a Vanilla Townie!" Convict is a little bit long and cumbersome ("no conviction") .

[Joseph2302]

I think I'm partial to exile myself. It's a nice, short replacement that also works for "No Exile" and "mail-mi has been exiled! He was a Vanilla Townie!" Convict is a little bit long and cumbersome ("no conviction") .

Convict definitely has bad connotations with British people being deported to the colonies (Australia), so think that may also cause an issue for some people

[WestCoastDidds]

I like eliminate/d. It’s different than kill, but as final

[EFHW]

Iced/on ice?

[EFHW]

Iced/on ice?

That might be more appropriate for the nk.

What does it mean that my phone knew I wanted to say nk after the the?

I'm open to tge term we choose. Should we do a poll?

[faust]

I was kind of nice that "lynch" worked as a verb as well as a noun, I think most of the other terms discussed don't do that. But it's a small price to pay.

I don't know that we need to come to some immediate consensus necessarily, people (including the mods) should be free to use whatever they think is most appropriate for a while, and maybe a new standard will form naturally.

[EFHW]

I was kind of nice that "lynch" worked as a verb as well as a noun, I think most of the other terms discussed don't do that. But it's a small price to pay.

I don't know that we need to come to some immediate consensus necessarily, people (including the mods) should be free to use whatever they think is most appropriate for a while, and maybe a new standard will form naturally.

That's a fine idea.

[scolapasta]

I was kind of nice that "lynch" worked as a verb as well as a noun, I think most of the other terms discussed don't do that. But it's a small price to pay.

Technically, "lynch" is not a noun, though it's been used that way in the game. Exile could actually work well as both.

[shraeye]

Yeah, exile (which I think I like, but the best suggestion is to test a few alternatives and see what we like) actually IS a noun and a verb.

But Dominion has taught me that everything is a verb. 

[faust]

Yeah, exile (which I think I like, but the best suggestion is to test a few alternatives and see what we like) actually IS a noun and a verb.

But Dominion has taught me that everything is a verb.

I guess my point was more that exile is a noun, but the relationship between exile (verb) and exile (noun) is different from lynch (verb) and lynch (use as noun here). It's strange to say "shraeye should be today's exile".

[WestCoastDidds]

Yeah, exile (which I think I like, but the best suggestion is to test a few alternatives and see what we like) actually IS a noun and a verb.

But Dominion has taught me that everything is a verb.

I guess my point was more that exile is a noun, but the relationship between exile (verb) and exile (noun) is different from lynch (verb) and lynch (use as noun here). It's strange to say "shraeye should be today's exile".

It will get less strange the more we use it. Shraeye should totally be today’s exile. Exile Shraeye! Shraeye is going to vote No Exile....let’s exile him for it!

[MiX]

Yeah, exile (which I think I like, but the best suggestion is to test a few alternatives and see what we like) actually IS a noun and a verb.

But Dominion has taught me that everything is a verb.

I guess my point was more that exile is a noun, but the relationship between exile (verb) and exile (noun) is different from lynch (verb) and lynch (use as noun here). It's strange to say "shraeye should be today's exile".

It will get less strange the more we use it. Shraeye should totally be today’s exile. Exile Shraeye! Shraeye is going to vote No Exile....let’s exile him for it!

It's fine if we misexile shraeye, he doesn't even want to push good exiles anyway, besides even if he's town we can win Eylo.

It works!

I am now in favor of change.

[MiX]

It's fine if we misexile shraeye, he doesn't even want to push good exiles anyway, besides even if he's town we can win Exlo.

EBWOP.

[WestCoastDidds]

Right?

ExLo
MexLo
Misexile
No Exile

LaLets LaEx LaLight
Vote: e is for exile
Dang....MisEx MiX again

[scolapasta]

Well, the 2nd noun definition of Exile does work:

Definition of exile
1a: the state or a period of forced absence from one's country or home
b: the state or a period of voluntary absence from one's country or home
2: a person who is in exile

I also like that it is now a Dominion Reserved Word, so it fits this forum. (alternatively we could vote to trash, as in "Let's trash scolapasta tonight." :p

[shraeye]

Trashed is nice.  Then the spectator QT can be called the Trash Mat.

[jotheonah]

Trashed is nice.  Then the spectator QT can be called the Trash Mat.

This is going to get confusing in drunk mafia though.

[jotheonah]

...because we're all trashed by the end

[SpaceAnemone]

I've only just spotted this thread, and I'm fully in support of a change in terminology.

The group I used to play IRL-Werewolf with back in the day picked "guillotine" as the new "lynch" when they made the switch ~10 years ago, and that seemed to work fine when people got used to it.

[jotheonah]

The more I think about it, the more I like exile because it actually removes the moral equivalency between town and scum that's always bothered me. Like, theoretically we're the good guys and they're the bad guys, but we kill just as many people as them. Maybe some people enjoy that irony; certainly there's something edgy and satirical about it in a Catch-22 sort of way. But personally I like the idea of having games where the "good guys" get rid of people in some other way than killing.

[Awaclus]

Misexile

Or missile for short.

[EFHW]

The more I think about it, the more I like exile because it actually removes the moral equivalency between town and scum that's always bothered me. Like, theoretically we're the good guys and they're the bad guys, but we kill just as many people as them. Maybe some people enjoy that irony; certainly there's something edgy and satirical about it in a Catch-22 sort of way. But personally I like the idea of having games where the "good guys" get rid of people in some other way than killing.

I actually like the life and death struggle of the town kills. The stakes aren't high enough with exile. Am I the only one who enjoys the playing around with death and murder? Never thought I'd be typing that!

[EFHW]

Remove

[EFHW]

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

[MiX]

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?

[WestCoastDidds]

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?

It’s slang for cancel. Restaurant servers will say “nix the pickles” to mean leave them off.

[cayvie]

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

This is good

[hypercube]

I'm a big fan of trash. Guillotine is nice and flavourful but annoying to have to type all of the time.

[J Reggie]

I'm glad to see this being discussed here. I can't say this is the main reason I stopped playing mafia but it definitely put me off. I'm also part of a community that's been talking about playing mafia online for a while and this has been my big reservation for suggesting joining a forum game.

[LaLight]

I'm glad to see this being discussed here. I can't say this is the main reason I stopped playing mafia but it definitely put me off. I'm also part of a community that's been talking about playing mafia online for a while and this has been my big reservation for suggesting joining a forum game.

oh hi!

also, I definitely am prochange and proExile.

[LaLight]

trash and guillotine are slightly negative for me. Especially trash.

[Jimmmmm]

I don't know enough about the politics etc behind this to comment (I was somewhat surprised to learn that lynch is a problematic enough word to want to change), but I'm definitely in favour of making it easier to invite new players.

Thoughts on some of the suggestions.

Exile: It's probably one of the better suggestions so far, but I don't love it for a couple of reasons. In the context of a game, exile sounds temporary to me. If I saw that someone had been exiled I would wonder how long that lasted. The other thing is that changing the lynch to a non-kill seems to effect flavour quite a bit. I can imagine that in some settings exiling players just doesn't make sense, either because the flavour is around killing/combat or because there's nowhere for the exiled player to go. Also, terms like "Living players", "Dead players" etc would have to be changed. Also, learning a player's alignment because they went away makes even less sense than learning it because they died; why can't you just get them to come back?

Convict: As Joseph mentioned, convict has sometimes been used as a somewhat derogatory term for Australian. I probably would have mentioned it if he hadn't, but I don't think it's a major issue. I've only heard it used as a below-the-belt insult by "Barmy" English cricket supporters. Perhaps it is a bigger issue than that here or elsewhere; I'd probably want to look into it more. Another potential issue is that convicts and ex-convicts are an actual group of people. Actually the more I think about it, the more I think "You're going to be Today's convict" is not really what we want to be saying.

Eliminate: Probably okay. It will be strange to contrast being eliminated to being nightkilled, as you are eliminated either way.

Execute: No one has suggested this here, but it makes the most sense to me. It keeps the death, is distinct from nightkills and makes no comment on the type or legality of the execution, allowing flexibility for the flavour. Possibly sounding graphic works against it.

I don't really like the wackier options like trash, nix, behead etc.

I also feel bad for Jimmmmm who is just launching a site and has presumably paid for the domain name, etc. But I do think he needs to have this conversation too and should do it sooner rather than later, especially if he's hoping to build a community of his own on his site. I'd be happy to participate in a thread over there to help Jim brainstorm new names.

Thinks for thanking of me! The cost and effort of changing the domain name will be a minor inconvenience. I'm happy to do it but not until we're very confident about whatever decisions are made. Help to come up with a new name will definitely be appreciated. Probably what happens there will follow what happens here, although while I can give mods the option to choose, there will need to be a default.

[Swowl]

Nix!

MisNix, no Nix, nixing, nixed, nixee, nylo, mylo

That'll just get me killed...

Does "nix" even mean anything?

a MiX!nix!
I don't even care if that is what we end up choosing, I am running with it

[Swowl]

maybe we could trial run it like we did the BM games a few months back? we could run a few standard set ups with the title being - "new lynch word" Mafia! - see what sticks? maybe make it like a rule? I know that is tech a posting restriction but if it was in the set up like "you may vote a player at any time by posting WORD: Player... or something like that?

[faust]

maybe we could trial run it like we did the BM games a few months back? we could run a few standard set ups with the title being - "new lynch word" Mafia! - see what sticks? maybe make it like a rule? I know that is tech a posting restriction but if it was in the set up like "you may vote a player at any time by posting WORD: Player... or something like that?

I don't think we need to change the current Vote: Swowl format, people have been writing code for that and all, and vote is nice, short, hard to misspell and unproblematic.

It's really up to the mod to what extent to enforce this, mods can pick the word they want to use for the official announcements but I don't think it makes much sense to have rules for how people refer to it in their posts. We have no rules for pronouns and the community seems to for the most part do fine in pointing out misgendering, this can be similar.

[pubby]

"Eliminate" does not convey that the kill was done by town - i.e. it could also describe nightkills as well. A word like "exile", "execute", or "behead" would be more fitting.

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.

[shraeye]

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.

The number of people who are actively supporting this change and seeking solutions suggests that this offense is not an invention. Using historically inappropriate language is uncomfortable to me and others.

I never have had any ill intentions when using 'lynch' in this game, and I suspect no player here did either. But that doesn't mean a less-charged word is a bad goal.

[yuma]

 

"Eliminate" does not convey that the kill was done by town - i.e. it could also describe nightkills as well. A word like "exile", "execute", or "behead" would be more fitting.

But honestly I roll my eyes at this discussion and am against the change. You are inventing new ways of getting offended over actions which had no ill-intentions to begin with.

[Robz888]

It will probably not surprise those of you who know me from IRL that I lean more toward the leave-it-as-is camp, and am somewhat skeptical of efforts to change language to better reflect newly-discovered sensitivities in general. That said, it seems clearly to be the case that most people would rather use a different word, and there's really no reason to not do what most people want. Like, this community doesn't exist for its own sake, it exists to please the people who participate in it. So if changing the word pleases an overwhelming number of people, we should do that. I would potentially recommend conducting some kind of anonymous poll, though, to make sure there aren't a large number of people with strong feelings that aren't voicing them here, for whatever reason.

I guess that's just if you're going to have one new standard word—obviously we can, and perhaps should, simply leave it to the discretion of individual game moderators. I do think the universality of some of our key terms—lynch, nightkill, shot, wagon—is extremely useful and it's sort of unfortunate they are tied up in violent imagery that is potentially offensive!

On that subject, I can understand why "lynch" is specifically a bridge too far. The "theme" of mafia is definitely suspicious and paranoid villagers wrongfully killing people, though. You'd really have to sanitize virtually all the flavor to make that no longer the case, to a degree that I find somewhat alarming. I don't think the fact that the town is executing people, and the scum are shooting them, should really be taken as some kind of problematic endorsement of violence. That starts to go into a "violent video games / comics are bad because violence is bad" "won't someone think of the children" kind of moral panic that I really do oppose. I mean, there's a Pillage card in Dominion, but it would be quite crazy to take this as some kind of endorsement or encouragement of pillaging. I do not think Donald X is soft on the issue of wartime theft and property destruction. (I also would agree in general with faust's point that state-sanctioned executions are not necessarily morally superior.)

Again, I'm not trying to say, "Well we can't stop using 'lynch' because where does that end, slippery slope," because we can in fact just end it after that! So I would be for doing that.

As for a new word, the most important thing is to have something short—we use this word a lot—that can be a noun and a verb, and differentiated from the nightkill. Exile is not bad, though mis-exile is sort of an inelegant construction. The best I can come up with that's not mentioned yet is the word fire. I.e. "the town fired ashersky, ashersky was misfired, you were on the fire wagon." It even has the subtle burned-at-the-stake thing going for it, which again I think is a totally permissible part of mafia's theme.

Just some thoughts!

[raerae]

There's a reason I rarely correct my auto-correct and I'm glad words are finally being put to it. I like fire, eliminate, and exile in that order.  This is a good discussion, y'all are good people.

[LaLight]

well, we can use the word lunch

[Jimmmmm]

Fire is excellent from a practical point of view.

[faust]

I appreciate this nuanced take on the issue.

Fire is an interesting suggestion, I think it would maybe sound a little bit like the theme has moved into the corporate world. Which should actually make for a pretty fun flavor for a game.

[shraeye]

As for a new word, the most important thing is to have something short—we use this word a lot—that can be a noun and a verb, and differentiated from the nightkill. Exile is not bad, though mis-exile is sort of an inelegant construction. The best I can come up with that's not mentioned yet is the word fire. I.e. "the town fired ashersky, ashersky was misfired, you were on the fire wagon." It even has the subtle burned-at-the-stake thing going for it, which again I think is a totally permissible part of mafia's theme.

I was thinking about the noun/verb thing too.  I still think I'm liking Exile; i don't see any more issues with the inelegance of misexile than any of the other words we sort of make up.

Although fire give us the possibility that, if you vote to get a flip even though you have hesitancy on its success AND it turns out that they flipped town, then you'd have a classic "mis-doubt-fire" scenario.

[EFHW]

I would potentially recommend conducting some kind of anonymous poll, though, to make sure there aren't a large number of people with strong feelings that aren't voicing them here, for whatever reason.

I don't think this is necessary unless we are proposing making an actual rule against use of the word lynch, which seems problematic. People who want to change the word they use will. I hope those having negative reactions will reflect on the value of having f.ds be a respectful, inclusive environment. I wish I had spoken up a long time ago and I'm sorry for the pain the word must have caused to black members and guests of f.ds.

[raerae]

As for a new word, the most important thing is to have something short—we use this word a lot—that can be a noun and a verb, and differentiated from the nightkill. Exile is not bad, though mis-exile is sort of an inelegant construction. The best I can come up with that's not mentioned yet is the word fire. I.e. "the town fired ashersky, ashersky was misfired, you were on the fire wagon." It even has the subtle burned-at-the-stake thing going for it, which again I think is a totally permissible part of mafia's theme.

I was thinking about the noun/verb thing too.  I still think I'm liking Exile; i don't see any more issues with the inelegance of misexile than any of the other words we sort of make up.

Although fire give us the possibility that, if you vote to get a flip even though you have hesitancy on its success AND it turns out that they flipped town, then you'd have a classic "mis-doubt-fire" scenario.

I don't know if this is why I married you or why I shouldn't have.

[Robz888]

Love the idea of a doubtfire becoming the term for someone who thinks the fired player will flip town, and a Mrs Doubtfire being a term for a mafia who is only pretending to think the fire player will flip town!

[jotheonah]

Just had a brainstorm: torch

- both a verb and a noun
- association with mob justice but not with specific hate crimes
- 1 syllable and ends with the same sound as lynch
- is kill flavor, which I guess is important to some people.

[pubby]

The number of people who are actively supporting this change and seeking solutions suggests that this offense is not an invention. Using historically inappropriate language is uncomfortable to me and others.

I never have had any ill intentions when using 'lynch' in this game, and I suspect no player here did either. But that doesn't mean a less-charged word is a bad goal.

Plenty of things are uncomfortable to people - bad words, differing opinions, being falsely accused in a game of mafia, etc. It's certainly a valid motivation for change, but you must admit that being uncomfortable is a rather small point to make.

While this may never become an official rule, it will nonetheless become an unwritten rule and something to judge others by. That is, this community will now associate "eliminate" as an anti-racist signal, and view people who say "lynch" in a negative, racist light. In the outside world, there are plenty of actions which are perfectly legal, but cannot be done due to unwritten societal rules. For example, one cannot get a facial tattoo, fly a communist flag, or say a transphobic slur without risking one's career and social status.

The irony here is that "lynch" is an uncomfortable word in part due to the fear of being judged as a racist. That when explaining mafia to someone else, you feel awkward not because you're harming a black person, but because you don't want the other person to think you're bigoted and backwards.

Anyway, I say all of this stubbornly. If renaming "lynch" actually does increase our inclusivity and reduce racism, I welcome the change, but I am dubious if it will accomplish that and fearful that changes such as these are harmful in the long run.

Interesting related article: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

[Awaclus]

Anyway, I say all of this stubbornly. If renaming "lynch" actually does increase our inclusivity and reduce racism, I welcome the change, but I am dubious if it will accomplish that and fearful that changes such as these are harmful in the long run.

It obviously doesn't reduce racism, but it could potentially increase our inclusivity towards people who are so uncomfortable with the concept of a lynch that it bothers them even in a fictional setting. On the other hand, I don't really see what the harm is, beyond normalizing whatever thing the replacement is.

[faust]

I'm sending further discussion on the merits of changing the language we use to RSP:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20411.new#new

[Robz888]

If EXILE sticks, maybe we should use CURSE instead of kill, and then you have two Dominion-centric terms? I mean, that sort of appeals to me.

[2.71828.....]

If EXILE sticks, maybe we should use CURSE instead of kill, and then you have two Dominion-centric terms? I mean, that sort of appeals to me.

Also, going with dominion thermically, if you exile someone, they still count at the end toward winning

[Jimmmmm]

I've got it: stake, as in burn at the stake. If it happens to a Townie it's a mistake.

[shraeye]

I've got it: stake, as in burn at the stake. If it happens to a Townie it's a mistake.

Also works with a vampire theme.

[Jimmmmm]

I've got it: stake, as in burn at the stake. If it happens to a Townie it's a mistake.

Also works with a vampire theme.

Also has potential for lunch-related puns.

[Jimmmmm]

I've got it: stake, as in burn at the stake. If it happens to a Townie it's a mistake.

Also works with a vampire theme.

Also has potential for lunch-related puns.

Your lynchpool would now be your stake sandwich.

[EFHW]

Oy. How about cast out / outcast?

[EFHW]

C-1 would be the proverbial (cast iron) frying pan.

[ashersky]

Just wanted to chime in that I had this thought as well, and support it.

I do not like any of the suggestions for replacements so far, though.

My only thought was that it should start with L to maintain the L-# shorthand.

Thesaurus spits out:

Liquidate, let go, and not much else...

I mean, with flavor games, just use flavor.  My Dune games could have been “sent into the desert without water” and a Walking Dead game just “given to the walkers.”

[Awaclus]

My only thought was that it should start with L to maintain the L-# shorthand.

L can be short for exi-L.

[silverspawn]

l'exil c'est Français

[shraeye]

X-1 emerged during a game; I like X-1

[WestCoastDidds]

Isn’t that in A Wrinkle in Time or something like that...people get X-Ed?

Totally works

[scolapasta]

I think regardless of word choice (which could vary based on theme), X-1 could become standard.

[chairs]

Exile as the default, with mod choice to flavor as appropriate, sounds like a win to me.

X-1 seems fine.

[ashersky]

Exile as the default, with mod choice to flavor as appropriate, sounds like a win to me.

X-1 seems fine.

I can dig this, especially as X-1 as the standard placeholder.

[cayvie]

i gotta say i can't believe it's happening but im actually coming around to "yeet"

champs spec chat does things to you

[popsofctown]

I use exile after site rule change. 
I really don't like the whole "extrajudicial killing without using any words that start with L" stuff, my views are pretty close to Awaclus's.

[Awaclus]

MyLo and LyLo should be called MeLo and LeLo, respectively.