Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Lost in the Woods twice  (Read 695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

majiponi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
  • Respect: +471
    • View Profile
Lost in the Woods twice
« on: May 22, 2020, 07:58:40 pm »
+8

Quoted from this post: https://twitter.com/kamo29mof/status/1263896887142174720

At the start of my turn, I received The Earth's Gift from Lost in the Woods. I gained an Estate.
My opponent Fuyu played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
She took Lost in the Woods.
She reshuffled the Boon's pile, and received The Earth's Gift. She gained another Estate.
I played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
I took Lost in the Woods.

Can I receive another Boon from Lost in the Woods?
Logged

Carline

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 08:40:39 pm »
+3

Quoted from this post: https://twitter.com/kamo29mof/status/1263896887142174720

At the start of my turn, I received The Earth's Gift from Lost in the Woods. I gained an Estate.
My opponent Fuyu played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
She took Lost in the Woods.
She reshuffled the Boon's pile, and received The Earth's Gift. She gained another Estate.
I played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
I took Lost in the Woods.

Can I receive another Boon from Lost in the Woods?

I don’t think so. Its effect is triggered once if you have it in the start of the turn, not when you gain it. It can’t trigger again because you gain it. If it could trigger more than once in a turn, you would be able to do it even without lost it and gain it again. That’s not the case.

It think it's more like: At the start of the turn check if the player has Lost in the Woods. If yes, the effect is triggered. This check is made only once per turn. Otherwise, you could use Lost in the Woods N times claiming you are still in the phase of resolving turn starting effects.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 08:56:23 pm by Carline »
Logged

mxdata

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 427
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 09:23:03 pm »
0

Quoted from this post: https://twitter.com/kamo29mof/status/1263896887142174720

At the start of my turn, I received The Earth's Gift from Lost in the Woods. I gained an Estate.
My opponent Fuyu played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
She took Lost in the Woods.
She reshuffled the Boon's pile, and received The Earth's Gift. She gained another Estate.
I played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
I took Lost in the Woods.

Can I receive another Boon from Lost in the Woods?

She should have gotten more than just one Boon.  At the start of your turn, you get one Boon for having Lost in the Woods.  But then when your opponent reacts with Black Cat as Fool, she takes Lost in the Woods and takes three boons and resolves all three.  Then, you in turn react with Black Cat as Fool, and take back Lost in the Woods and get the next three Boons, resolving them.  So, you don't get another Boon from the state, but you do get three Boons for playing Fool when you did not have Lost in the Woods (since it was briefly in your opponent's possession)

The question that arises here is the order they should be resolved.  If she resolved Earth's Gift first (allowing you to react and take Lost in the Woods back), does she continue to resolve the other two boons before you resolve your three, or do you resolve the three you got, then she continues to resolve the other two (although, I'm not sure if there's any situation where it would actually make a difference)?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 09:30:04 pm by mxdata »
Logged
They/them

Carline

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2020, 09:30:05 pm »
+1

Quoted from this post: https://twitter.com/kamo29mof/status/1263896887142174720

At the start of my turn, I received The Earth's Gift from Lost in the Woods. I gained an Estate.
My opponent Fuyu played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
She took Lost in the Woods.
She reshuffled the Boon's pile, and received The Earth's Gift. She gained another Estate.
I played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
I took Lost in the Woods.

Can I receive another Boon from Lost in the Woods?

She should have gotten more than just one Boon.  At the start of your turn, you get one Boon for having Lost in the Woods.  But then when your opponent reacts with Black Cat as Fool, she takes Lost in the Woods and gains three boons.  Then, you in turn react with Black Cat as Fool, and take back Lost in the Woods and get the next three Boons.  So, you don't get another Boon from the state, but you do get three Boons for playing Fool when you did not have Lost in the Woods (since it was briefly in your opponent's possession)

I think it's presumed in the question that both gained three Boons when played Fool and this was omitted because the point was to ask about a second trigger of Lost in the Woods.
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 200
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +270
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 04:31:53 am »
+2

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

2) If the Lost in the Woods state goes back and forth between players like here, it's arguable that the player whose turn it is should actually get another Boon from that state (for a discard, of course), in addition to the 3 Boons from playing Fool. It's established (and I just checked online) that if you Summon Fool and don't start next turn with Lost in the Woods, you get the 3 Boons from Fool and afterwards the Lost in the Woods triggers and you can discard a card for another Boon, if you want. So it's not totally out of the question, but I really don't know.
Logged

Carline

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 08:04:15 am »
+1

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

2) If the Lost in the Woods state goes back and forth between players like here, it's arguable that the player whose turn it is should actually get another Boon from that state (for a discard, of course), in addition to the 3 Boons from playing Fool. It's established (and I just checked online) that if you Summon Fool and don't start next turn with Lost in the Woods, you get the 3 Boons from Fool and afterwards the Lost in the Woods triggers and you can discard a card for another Boon, if you want. So it's not totally out of the question, but I really don't know.

In this Summon example you can trigger Lost in the Woods not because you gained it, but because it's yours, it's still your phase of resolving starting turn effects and you didn't trigger Lost in the Woods in this turn yet.

In the case of the question, you already triggered Lost in the Woods this turn. This is not changed by the fact that you gained it again.
Logged

majiponi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 580
  • Respect: +471
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 11:18:53 am »
0

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

2) If the Lost in the Woods state goes back and forth between players like here, it's arguable that the player whose turn it is should actually get another Boon from that state (for a discard, of course), in addition to the 3 Boons from playing Fool. It's established (and I just checked online) that if you Summon Fool and don't start next turn with Lost in the Woods, you get the 3 Boons from Fool and afterwards the Lost in the Woods triggers and you can discard a card for another Boon, if you want. So it's not totally out of the question, but I really don't know.

In this Summon example you can trigger Lost in the Woods not because you gained it, but because it's yours, it's still your phase of resolving starting turn effects and you didn't trigger Lost in the Woods in this turn yet.

In the case of the question, you already triggered Lost in the Woods this turn. This is not changed by the fact that you gained it again.

With Necromancer, Lurker, and Procession, you can play a reverted Action card with Necromancer again. So I thought receiving a Boon once doesn't stop receiving another from Lost in the Woods.
Logged

mxdata

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 427
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 11:36:39 am »
0

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

Oh, yes, I didn't even think about that point.  I think you're right, that it shouldn't've been returned to the Boon pile until everything was done resolving
Logged
They/them

Carline

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 11:52:07 am »
+1

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

2) If the Lost in the Woods state goes back and forth between players like here, it's arguable that the player whose turn it is should actually get another Boon from that state (for a discard, of course), in addition to the 3 Boons from playing Fool. It's established (and I just checked online) that if you Summon Fool and don't start next turn with Lost in the Woods, you get the 3 Boons from Fool and afterwards the Lost in the Woods triggers and you can discard a card for another Boon, if you want. So it's not totally out of the question, but I really don't know.

In this Summon example you can trigger Lost in the Woods not because you gained it, but because it's yours, it's still your phase of resolving starting turn effects and you didn't trigger Lost in the Woods in this turn yet.

In the case of the question, you already triggered Lost in the Woods this turn. This is not changed by the fact that you gained it again.

With Necromancer, Lurker, and Procession, you can play a reverted Action card with Necromancer again. So I thought receiving a Boon once doesn't stop receiving another from Lost in the Woods.

Necromancer cares about face up/face down actions. If there's a way to change this condition, it's OK, now you can play that card again.

In this question about Lost in the Woods there's nothing causing a second trigger. It doesn't trigger on gain.

If it can trigger twice, why it can't do it if it's yours from the beggining of the turn and remains yours?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 11:53:22 am by Carline »
Logged

scolapasta

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 357
  • Respect: +353
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 11:57:11 am »
0

My 2 cents:

1) The Earth's Gift should not have been shuffled in when the opponent got their 3 Wishes from Fool. It wasn't done resolving yet, as a trigger from it's effect (Fuyu playing Black Cat using Way of the Mouse playing Fool dishing out 3 Boons) was still resolving.

Oh, yes, I didn't even think about that point.  I think you're right, that it shouldn't've been returned to the Boon pile until everything was done resolving

Is this accurate though?

The wiki says:

"when a Fate card instructs you to receive a Boon, you draw the next one and get whatever bonus it tells you, and return it to the Boon discard pile when you've resolved it."

Though I'm not sure where that came from as I checked the rulebook and it doesn't specify:

"The phrase "receive a Boon" means, turn over the top Boon, and follow the instructions on it. If the Boons deck is empty, first shuffle the discarded Boons to reform the deck; you may also do this any time all Boons are in their discard pile. Received Boons normally go to the Boons discard pile, but three (The Field's Gift, The Forest's Gift, and The River's Gift) go in front of a player until that turn's Clean-up."

There is an argument to be made that "received boons" means after they are resolved, since at that point they've been received.
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

Carline

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
  • Respect: +102
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 12:45:41 pm »
0

If it can trigger twice, why it can't do it if it's yours from the beggining of the turn and remains yours?

This leads to another question somewhat related:

What exactly prevents Artifacts abilities to be used more than once per turn?

The rulebook doesn't say it explicitly. I think it's more a matter of common sense and good hermeneutics.

It seems logical to me, but I can't explain exactly from where I have this certainty.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5773
  • Respect: +23315
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2020, 01:35:01 pm »
+4

Quoted from this post: https://twitter.com/kamo29mof/status/1263896887142174720

At the start of my turn, I received The Earth's Gift from Lost in the Woods. I gained an Estate.
My opponent Fuyu played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
She took Lost in the Woods.
She reshuffled the Boon's pile, and received The Earth's Gift. She gained another Estate.
I played Black Cat and Fool (Way of the Mouse).
I took Lost in the Woods.

Can I receive another Boon from Lost in the Woods?
As Ingix notes, Earth's Gift wouldn't be shuffled in yet.

We can create this situation another way. Let's say that the Mouse is Vassal instead, the classic way to make bad stuff happen. So: She plays Black Cat to play Vassal which hits Fool. She receives Wind's Gift, discards Village Green, plays Vassal with it, it hits Workshop, she gains Estate, you play Black Cat to play Vassal which hits Fool.

When a card is "gone" it loses all memory of uh stuff, anything there was to remember. If Lost in the Woods were a card, it wouldn't matter that it was the same card; you would get the 2nd Boon. Lost in the Woods isn't a card though.

I don't see a precedent really for whether or not Lost in the Woods remembers that you got it already. I'm going to tentatively go with, you don't get the next Boon. Lost in the Woods remembers.
Logged

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 914
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1592
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2020, 11:47:39 am »
+1

A related question: If I have an artifact during start of turn, and someone takes that artifact from me before I elect to use it, can I still use the ability?

I tested this out with Treasurer/Black Cat/WOTM/Vassal online, and you are able to do so:

mxdata

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 427
  • Respect: +426
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2020, 04:12:28 pm »
+2

A related question: If I have an artifact during start of turn, and someone takes that artifact from me before I elect to use it, can I still use the ability?

I tested this out with Treasurer/Black Cat/WOTM/Vassal online, and you are able to do so:



That looks correct to me.  You get to choose the order you resolve Summon and Key, but they're both triggered simultaneously at the start of your turn.  So, even though your opponent took the Key away from you before you got to resolve it, it had already been triggered
Logged
They/them

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5773
  • Respect: +23315
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2020, 12:25:28 am »
0

A related question: If I have an artifact during start of turn, and someone takes that artifact from me before I elect to use it, can I still use the ability?
Tentatively yes.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1251
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2020, 02:02:07 pm »
0

A related question: If I have an artifact during start of turn, and someone takes that artifact from me before I elect to use it, can I still use the ability?
Tentatively yes.

It seems to me it has to be yes. Like Mxdata said, it was triggered in the start-of-turn window, and you're still in that window. It's like the Royal Seal that is removed from play when you gain Mandarin, but still lets you topdeck the Mandarin. Or the Talisman that is removed from play when you buy Mint, but still lets you gain a copy of the Mint.

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1251
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2020, 02:44:32 pm »
0

Regarding the Lost in the Woods question, I first agreed with Carline, but Donald's post made me think about it. If Lost in the Woods were a card, it would be like Hireling. If you drew a card from Hireling, then somehow ended up trashing that Hireling, regaining it and playing it - all in start-of-turn - it would draw you another card, even if you know it's the same Hireling.

Lost in the Woods is not a card. It's a State that checks if it's yours at start of each turn. But what if there were another State - Lost in the Town - that triggered at the start of the round instead: "At the start of the round, receive a Boon." It would trigger before the start player's turn each round. Being a State, it would only apply to the person having it. But what if you receive the Boon and this causes your opponent to get Lost in the Town? It's still the start of the round, and now your opponent has it, so they should also get a Boon. If you now get it back, do you get another Boon? Lost in the Town already triggered twice, so the check is not just made once.

I think Lost in the Woods and Lost in the Town should work the same. If the answer is that you get another Boon by getting Lost in the Town back, you should also get it with Lost in the Woods. But I'm still not sure though. I'm inclined to think that Lost in the Town can't trigger more than once for each player, but I can't really say why.

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 200
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +270
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 05:31:45 am »
+1

I think that being a state makes it inherently trackable. We know it is the same state, because only one such state exists. The same is true for Deluded/Envious, which is unique to each player. The same holds true for Artifacts, where each exists only once.

So I think the general principle should be that once such a state/Artifact has triggered for an occasion, it will not trigger again on that occasion, even if it changes owners once or more.

So if you loose and regain the Treasure Chest during your "start of buy phase" trigger time (not sure it's possible), it would not give you an an additional Gold, IMO.

So if Lost in Town/Woods "moves between players" during the respective trigger period, it shouldn't retrigger, IMO.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1251
    • View Profile
Re: Lost in the Woods twice
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2020, 03:45:35 pm »
0

I think that being a state makes it inherently trackable. We know it is the same state, because only one such state exists. The same is true for Deluded/Envious, which is unique to each player. The same holds true for Artifacts, where each exists only once.

So I think the general principle should be that once such a state/Artifact has triggered for an occasion, it will not trigger again on that occasion, even if it changes owners once or more.

So if you loose and regain the Treasure Chest during your "start of buy phase" trigger time (not sure it's possible), it would not give you an an additional Gold, IMO.

So if Lost in Town/Woods "moves between players" during the respective trigger period, it shouldn't retrigger, IMO.

I think it's pretty clear that Lost in the Town will trigger for each player if it changes hands. There is no single moment during the start-of-turn window (or any window) when things trigger. If a player gets the State during the window, it triggers, how can it not? The player has it at start of turn after all. It can't matter that it already triggered for another player.

But I think you're right that a State, being unique, is universally "trackable" (as opposed to a card). And maybe therefore it can't trigger more than once for each player in the window. Getting it back during the window is no different than having it during the window: it doesn't trigger more than once for you.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.152 seconds with 21 queries.