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beri

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Three card ideas
« on: May 17, 2020, 05:50:13 pm »
+3

A few rough ideas, unsure if they’d work. I guess similar things have already been made.

Nascent village (Action)
cost $5
+2 Actions
For each Nascent village you have in play, +1 Card.

or

cost $5
+2 Actions
For each Nascent village you have in play, choose a different option: +1 card, +$2, +2 buys, +1 VP

**********

Majestic ring (Treasure)
cost $5
worth $1
-------
When this is in play, cards cost $1 less per card you gained this turn.

**********

Wealthy town (Action)
cost $5
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Discard a Copper.



Thoughts?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 10:04:41 pm »
+2

Wealthy Town seems reasonable to try. It could easily end up being too strong, but it's worth trying.

I'm guessing the first version of Nascent Village is too strong, especially in 2-player games. I think the second version is definitely way too strong and complex.

Majestic Ring is hard to gauge. It's very board-dependent, which is fine. It reminds me of an outtake; a Treasure that scaled with how many buys you had. But it also gave +1 Buy, so it had very strong self-synergy. Majestic Ring seems definitely worth trying. On some boards it'll be terrible but on most it's at least worth considering.
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Carline

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2020, 12:23:10 am »
0

Wealthy Town seems reasonable to try. It could easily end up being too strong, but it's worth trying.

If we consider only on play effect, Lost City is better. Is it compensated by on gain penalty of Lost City?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2020, 01:03:44 am »
+1

Wealthy Town seems reasonable to try. It could easily end up being too strong, but it's worth trying.

If we consider only on play effect, Lost City is better. Is it compensated by on gain penalty of Lost City?

The gain penalty of Lost City is significant. The penalty of Wealthy Town is probably more significant, but it gets less and less so as you trash Copper. So, it's hard to say how it stacks up compared to Lost City. Testing is needed. Either way, I think it's a cool effect.
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loneXolf

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 04:32:28 am »
0

- Nascent village v1
Looks too strong
Only the first Nascent village each turn is below the 5 cost strength. Sure playing 3 copies of this is the same as 3 lost cities and you have
the downside of having to scale. But once you get to the draw 4 it just seems degenerate.

- Nascent village v2
Even stronger than v1, can be a pain to track,
I suggest not making cards with effects that scale with copies of itself in play, but if you really want to make it more reasonable.

- Majestic ring
So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?
This feels too abuse-able in some kingdoms.  You only need 3 rings and 2 gains for provinces to cost $2 and 3 gains for provinces to be
free.
And it's just degenerate when combed with a muit-gainer like Trusty Steed.
Also, I don't like how this card is a $5 cost copper in a lot of kingdoms,
and this needs the text "but not less than $0".

- Wealthy town
This is probably fine.

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Carline

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 05:22:48 am »
+5

and this needs the text "but not less than $0".

5. Costs don't go below $0.

The cost in $ of a card can't go below $0. The cost in [potion] of a card can't go below 0 [potion]; the cost in [debt] of a card can't go below 0 [debt].

This is something that cards like Bridge have said; now it's just a rule, and covers the potion and debt cases since people ask. What does Vineyard cost with a Highway in play? Same as without it - zero coins, one potion, and zero debt.

I think that after 2019 errata cost reducers don't need this text anymore.
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Holger

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2020, 10:45:59 am »
+2

-- Majestic ring
So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?
This feels too abuse-able in some kingdoms.  You only need 3 rings and 2 gains for provinces to cost $2 and 3 gains for provinces to be
free.
This requires 4 (resp. 5) specific cards in your hand, and only the last gain could be a $2 (resp. $0) province. IMO this is much less of a problem than KC-KC-3*Bridge which gives you 8 provinces for free (with also just 5 specific cards in hand).
Fortunately, Ring can't even be throned, let alone KC'ed.

Quote
And it's just degenerate when combed with a muit-gainer like Trusty Steed.
Also, I don't like how this card is a $5 cost copper in a lot of kingdoms,
and this needs the text "but not less than $0".

I think the majority of kingdoms do have extra buys and/or gainers. Trusty Steed is hard enough to get that it's just a fine combo. Cheap multi-gainers like Beggar make for a far stronger combo, but since this requires two specific cards plus a spammable +buy card, it'll still very rarely come up in games.
Edit: You could prevent Beggar and mass-silver gainers from making Majestic ring too strong by changing it to "When this is in play, cards cost $1 less per non-Treasure card you gained this turn." There's very few cards that gain several non-Treasure cards at once, after all.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 11:29:03 am by Holger »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 11:27:10 am »
+1

So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?

In case it wasn't clear from the other responses, +Buy also works, and there's almost always either a gainer or +Buy.
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loneXolf

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2020, 01:57:01 pm »
0

-- Majestic ring
So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?
This feels too abuse-able in some kingdoms.  You only need 3 rings and 2 gains for provinces to cost $2 and 3 gains for provinces to be
free.
This requires 4 (resp. 5) specific cards in your hand, and only the last gain could be a $2 (resp. $0) province. IMO this is much less of a problem than KC-KC-3*Bridge which gives you 8 provinces for free (with also just 5 specific cards in hand).
Fortunately, Ring can't even be throned, let alone KC'ed.

Quote
And it's just degenerate when combed with a muit-gainer like Trusty Steed.
Also, I don't like how this card is a $5 cost copper in a lot of kingdoms,
and this needs the text "but not less than $0".

I think the majority of kingdoms do have extra buys and/or gainers. Trusty Steed is hard enough to get that it's just a fine combo. Cheap multi-gainers like Beggar make for a far stronger combo, but since this requires two specific cards plus a spammable +buy card, it'll still very rarely come up in games.
Edit: You could prevent Beggar and mass-silver gainers from making Majestic ring too strong by changing it to "When this is in play, cards cost $1 less per non-Treasure card you gained this turn." There's very few cards that gain several non-Treasure cards at once, after all.

Fair points, The non-Treasure nerf while does stop a lot of the muit-gainers makes it lose synergy with so many single treasure and silver gainers. There is probably some wording to nerf muit-gainers.



So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?

In case it wasn't clear from the other responses, +Buy also works, and there's almost always either a gainer or +Buy.

I thought "gained" would only take into account gains from when before the Majestic ring gets played. However the +Buys are still needed to make use of cost reduction
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 01:58:24 pm by loneXolf »
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scolapasta

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2020, 02:05:02 pm »
+1

-- Majestic ring
So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?
This feels too abuse-able in some kingdoms.  You only need 3 rings and 2 gains for provinces to cost $2 and 3 gains for provinces to be
free.
This requires 4 (resp. 5) specific cards in your hand, and only the last gain could be a $2 (resp. $0) province. IMO this is much less of a problem than KC-KC-3*Bridge which gives you 8 provinces for free (with also just 5 specific cards in hand).
Fortunately, Ring can't even be throned, let alone KC'ed.

Quote
And it's just degenerate when combed with a muit-gainer like Trusty Steed.
Also, I don't like how this card is a $5 cost copper in a lot of kingdoms,
and this needs the text "but not less than $0".

I think the majority of kingdoms do have extra buys and/or gainers. Trusty Steed is hard enough to get that it's just a fine combo. Cheap multi-gainers like Beggar make for a far stronger combo, but since this requires two specific cards plus a spammable +buy card, it'll still very rarely come up in games.
Edit: You could prevent Beggar and mass-silver gainers from making Majestic ring too strong by changing it to "When this is in play, cards cost $1 less per non-Treasure card you gained this turn." There's very few cards that gain several non-Treasure cards at once, after all.

Fair points, The non-Treasure nerf while does stop a lot of the muit-gainers makes it lose synergy with so many single treasure and silver gainers. There is probably some wording to nerf muit-gainers.

How about "per differently named card you gained this turn."?

So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?

In case it wasn't clear from the other responses, +Buy also works, and there's almost always either a gainer or +Buy.

I thought "gained" would only take into account gains from when before the Majestic ring gets played. However the +Buys are still needed to make use of cost reduction

It's "while this is in play" not "when you play this", so I think costs would change dynamically, as you buy. (think about how Destrier changes cost as you keep gaining).
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loneXolf

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2020, 02:16:55 pm »
0

So this needs an action or treasure gainer to be more than a copper?

In case it wasn't clear from the other responses, +Buy also works, and there's almost always either a gainer or +Buy.

I thought "gained" would only take into account gains from when before the Majestic ring gets played. However the +Buys are still needed to make use of cost reduction

It's "while this is in play" not "when you play this", so I think costs would change dynamically, as you buy. (think about how Destrier changes cost as you keep gaining).
That makes more sense, I thought it worked with buys that first time I read it. I just tricked myself.
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beri

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2020, 05:54:09 am »
0

Thanks all for your replies and suggestions.

Nascent village v1 gets stronger than Lost city from the third copy you play. However, how often will you trigger a triple NV play?
Sounds decent to me compared with a well set-up City quarter (keeping everything in proportion, cost-wise). Now, I’m not a brilliant Dominion player.

Quote from: loneXolf
I suggest not making cards with effects that scale with copies of itself in play, but if you really want to make it more reasonable.
I was expecting a comment like yours. Can you explain why?

**********

Nascent village v2 was intended to be less powerful than v1, because v2 is less likely to draw itself (+1 card at most). In this version, two NV = two Bazaars or two Festivals. So sure, from 2 up they’re better than these individual cards, but being limited to +1 Card should make it decently hard to combo them?

Maybe sth like this that removes choice:
+2 Actions
+1 Card
If you have two or more Nascent villages in play, +$2;
three or more, +1VP;
four or more, +2 Buys.

**********

Majestic ring
Yes this one can be swingy. I’d like to have a card that’s a multiple Bridge/Highway.

Other options:
v2 (cost $5)
worth $1
+1 Buy
Gain a Copper.
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less for each card you’ve gained this turn.

v3 (cost $5)
worth $1
+1 Buy
While this is in play, +$2 each time you buy a card. (not a cost reducer, though)

v4 (cost $3)
Worth $0.
(+1 Buy)
You may gain a Copper.
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less per differently named card you gained this turn.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:03:29 am by beri »
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spineflu

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2020, 08:59:55 am »
0

majestic ring v4 sounds reasonable at $4

LastFootnote

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2020, 02:19:59 pm »
+1

I'd missed the "choose a different option" in Nascent Village 2. Maybe that's fine, though tough to track.

I would strongly suggest trying Majestic Ring out the way you had it before making it more complex.

For Nascent Village 1, you could just have it scale less dramatically. For instance:

Nascent Village: Action, $4
+2 Actions.
Look at a card from the top of your deck per Nascent Village you have in play. Put one of them into your hand and discard the rest.
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loneXolf

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Re: Three card ideas
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 12:12:05 am »
+2

Thanks all for your replies and suggestions.

Nascent village v1 gets stronger than Lost city from the third copy you play. However, how often will you trigger a triple NV play?
Sounds decent to me compared with a well set-up City quarter (keeping everything in proportion, cost-wise). Now, I’m not a brilliant Dominion player.

Quote from: loneXolf
I suggest not making cards with effects that scale with copies of itself in play, but if you really want to make it more reasonable.
I was expecting a comment like yours. Can you explain why?

**********

Nascent village v2 was intended to be less powerful than v1, because v2 is less likely to draw itself (+1 card at most). In this version, two NV = two Bazaars or two Festivals. So sure, from 2 up they’re better than these individual cards, but being limited to +1 Card should make it decently hard to combo them?

Maybe sth like this that removes choice:
+2 Actions
+1 Card
If you have two or more Nascent villages in play, +$2;
three or more, +1VP;
four or more, +2 Buys.


Playing 4 Nascent village v1 is the same as playing 6 Labs, I think for a village variant to be a better spamed draw engine than Lab is crazy.
Sure Lab is better if you aren't planing on gaining a bunch of Labs, but I think Nascent village is too strong at what it does
Giving a card a effect that scales with copies of itself can 1. scale too quickly which can easily make it too powerful. and/or 2. Lower buy diversity

The main reason I didn't like the first Nascent village v2 is that it does everything by itself.
card, coins, actions, buys, and even vp. And being your choice of a Village or Festival without the +buy on the first play isn't much of a downside, when each copy afterwards gets way better.
Also the +1 VP on it feels like overkill why is it also an alt win condition.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 12:14:28 am by loneXolf »
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