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Author Topic: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard  (Read 2756 times)

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Jeebus

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Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« on: May 14, 2020, 03:52:40 pm »
+2

"You may discard your hand for +5 Cards."

Do you get +5 Cards if you have no cards in hand to discard? (Let's say you had no cards when you played Hunting Lodge and the -1 Card token was on your deck.)
Normally, "do x for y" means that you try to do x, but you don't get y if you failed. Hunting Lodge doesn't have the specification of Tactition ("if you have at least one card in hand"). But is not discarding any cards considered discarding your hand?

GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 04:14:42 pm »
0

Yes, it still counts. Best evidence is probably that Tactician goes out of its way to say that it only works if any cards were discarded this way. If this behavior were intended for Hunting Lodge it would say something similar.

*Edit* I never knew until now that Tactician got new wording in second edition. I’m assuming that it’s functionally identical?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 04:16:57 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2020, 04:44:46 pm »
0

Yes, it still counts. Best evidence is probably that Tactician goes out of its way to say that it only works if any cards were discarded this way. If this behavior were intended for Hunting Lodge it would say something similar.

*Edit* I never knew until now that Tactician got new wording in second edition. I’m assuming that it’s functionally identical?

I don't think it's entirely clear on Hunting Lodge. Tactician only works if you discard; Minion works even if you can't. But they are both mandatory, unlike Hunting Lodge. So the text on Hunting Lodge is different from both of them. But yes, if discarding 0 cards didn't count, Tactician could have just said "Discard your hand. If you did..." On the other hand, Tactician might just be trying to be helpful, spelling it out, while discarding with Hunting Lodge will almost never happen without cards in hand, so it doesn't need to spell it out. It does seem weird that discarding 0 cards can count as discarding.

Yes, Tactician is supposed to be functionally identical (afaik).

mxdata

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2020, 05:10:57 pm »
0

I don't think "hand" is explicitly defined to require a non-zero number anywhere, so a hand consisting of zero cards would still be a meaningful concept.  So, you discard your zero-card hand for +5 cards

Also, there's precedence for discarding zero cards.  Cellar has a mandatory discard, but since it says "any number", you can play it and choose to discard zero cards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 05:12:01 pm by mxdata »
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2020, 05:32:54 pm »
+1

I don't think "hand" is explicitly defined to require a non-zero number anywhere, so a hand consisting of zero cards would still be a meaningful concept.  So, you discard your zero-card hand for +5 cards

Also, there's precedence for discarding zero cards.  Cellar has a mandatory discard, but since it says "any number", you can play it and choose to discard zero cards

I expect that you're right. Still, the Cellar example is not exactly equivalent. You can choose to discard 0 cards, but you get a benefit for each card, which means you would get 0 benefits. Hunting Lodge would (I think) be the first card where you actually get a benefit based on doing something that turns out to be doing nothing.

EDIT: Actually, there is one card like that: Forge. You can choose to trash 0 cards, but still gain a card. That supports your point better than Cellar.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 05:35:38 pm by Jeebus »
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segura

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2020, 06:55:33 pm »
0

It is basically impossible to construct a realistic example in which somebody would be down to 1 card in hand while having the -1 Card token on their deck.
You would need a discard for benefit that does not draw to start. They are terminal so you also need Villagers or a splitter like Festival that does not draw instead  plus Relic.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 06:57:05 pm by segura »
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2020, 07:12:47 pm »
0

It is basically impossible to construct a realistic example in which somebody would be down to 1 card in hand while having the -1 Card token on their deck.
You would need a discard for benefit that does not draw to start. They are terminal so you also need Villagers or a splitter like Festival that does not draw instead  plus Relic.

It's not likely to happen, but it's not that difficult. You just need to be attacked twice with Torturer, and have your -1 Card token from either Borrow, Raid or Relic.

ftl

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2020, 07:16:15 pm »
0

It is basically impossible to construct a realistic example in which somebody would be down to 1 card in hand while having the -1 Card token on their deck.
You would need a discard for benefit that does not draw to start. They are terminal so you also need Villagers or a splitter like Festival that does not draw instead  plus Relic.
It's pretty easy... your hand is hunting lodge and 4 nonterminal actions that don't draw, you start with the -1 card on your deck. There's lots of those.

The keys to this are hunting lodge, any strong trashing, relic (for the opponent), any disappearing money. In those cases a draw-up-to-5 engine with hunting lodge seems like a plausible strategy. Might be a bit unreliable because you need to make the engine keep firing with 5-card re-draws, but hey, that's what the strong trashing is there for, and anyway the situation might come up regardless of whether this is a good or bad strategy.

Hunting Lodge+Festival. Hunting Lodge+Minion. Hunting lodge + Fishing village + any terminal $ source. It just needs strong trashing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2020, 08:29:51 pm »
0

You also could simply have 0 cards in your deck/discard when you play Hunting Lodge instead of having the -1 card token. Of course this would mean that the "draw 5 cards" would end up doing nothing, but the same question still exists, do you follow the instruction of "draw 5 cards" if you play Hunting Lodge as the last card in your hand/deck?

Which brings me to a related question... if your deck+discard is empty, but has the -1 card token on it, do you get rid of the token if you get a +1 card? Does it count as "the next time you would draw a card" if your deck+discard is empty?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2020, 08:35:39 pm »
+1

Really it comes down to what is the definition of "discard your hand", and I'm not sure if that's specifically defined in the rules. But I would think that the most obvious definition would be "discard each card in your hand". And in this case, you followed this instruction if discarding an empty hand just as much as you did if you discarded a hand with some cards in it.. either way, you discarded "each card"; there's nothing special about the empty set here. At least not if what matters is the technical/logical way of following instructions.
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scolapasta

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2020, 10:13:54 pm »
0

You also could simply have 0 cards in your deck/discard when you play Hunting Lodge instead of having the -1 card token. Of course this would mean that the "draw 5 cards" would end up doing nothing, but the same question still exists, do you follow the instruction of "draw 5 cards" if you play Hunting Lodge as the last card in your hand/deck?

Which brings me to a related question... if your deck+discard is empty, but has the -1 card token on it, do you get rid of the token if you get a +1 card? Does it count as "the next time you would draw a card" if your deck+discard is empty?


The wiki (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Adventures_tokens) does say:

Quote
The –1 Card token is removed when you try to draw a card, even if your deck and discard pile are empty.

And it makes sense, since the would first take the token before shuffling your discard (in the case reshuffling zero cards).

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Donald X.

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2020, 11:13:09 am »
+3

"You may discard your hand for +5 Cards."

Do you get +5 Cards if you have no cards in hand to discard?
Yes.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Playing Hunting Lodge with no cards to discard
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2020, 12:00:14 pm »
+5

The easier way to achieve this is Way of the Chameleon.
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