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Supernova888

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Card Type Concept: Tools
« on: April 06, 2020, 11:30:24 pm »
+3

So I'm working on a fan expansion to Dominion, and I've had this idea floating around in my head for a while: What if a card was automatically played from your hand whenever it was in it? Enter "Tools," a separate type of card I'm testing out. The official rules for Tools as they stand now are as follows (and major thanks to crlundy for helping me find a good wording for this!):

Tools have different backs to regular cards. At the start of your turn, or directly after playing a card, you must play any Tools from your hand. This does not cost an Action; if you have multiple tools in your hand, you may play them in any order. Tools (except for Cursed Antique and Broken Sword) are regular Kingdom cards that exist in the Supply like any other card. Tools are their own type of card.

What follows are all my ideas for Tools, with brief comments on each below. I haven't playtested any of them yet, but would love to get feedback on them to see if there are any glaring issues before I start doing so. Thanks for reading!!





Armor: Tries to be its own Jack-of-All-Trades and help against certain attacks. It trashes from discard so it can also trash any tools you don't want (since they're almost never in your hand long enough to be interacted with).
Axe: A forced remodel that doesn't cost an Action, nor does it lower your handsize further with the trash.
Bag of Holding: A Workshop that doesn't disrupt your flow.
Bow and Arrow: I wanted to make another card that interacts with the discard; I ended up with (I think) a stronger Harbinger.
Compass: My poster-child for the risk/reward idea behind Tools. Don't know if the cycling is powerful enough to make it cost more, but the fact that it's mandatory feels like it could ruin your day enough to be lower.
Moccasins: I wanted more card-draw cards, but card draw that takes up no resources seems powerful. So here's a true-blue Smithy, you're just always forced to play it. I'd like to believe the cases where you get to use it for free balance out the ones where it kills your Action potential, but I'm SO willing to be convinced that it needs to be spruced up. Maybe +4 Cards?
Rations: A village that can never be drawn dead.
Spellbook: A band of misfits that makes playing cheaper cards even more appealing by making them actionless.
Sword: +2 Cards by itself seemed too boring at $6. Being forced to discard I think is more strategic, and this makes use of Fugitive's text on a true-blue Kingdom card.
Telescope: Combining the flavor of Navigator and Lookout. Might be too strong.
Wagon: A way to get that elusive +Buy, and in some circumstances an extra card when you would have drawn an Action dead.
Battalion & Broken Sword: The +3 Cards is there to prevent a slog. Broken Sword feels a little oppressive, but it can never be worse than a Militia; I don't know if its persistence would slow everything down too much.
Charlatan & Cursed Antique: A curser that keeps on giving. Note that the trashing a card from play means you can trash a Cursed Antique, so there's no board where you're stuck with them forever.

Again, any feedback is greatly appreciated, and as a reminder, none of these are playtested, just ideas until I get a sense they're worthy enough to bring to the game table. Thanks again for humoring me and reading all of this!!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 06:01:52 pm by Supernova888 »
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 01:17:35 am »
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I think your concept is interesting. The alternate back is a good solution to the mandatory play, though I think the wording on your rules needs a little work. Maybe something like "At the start of each of your turns, as well as directly after resolving a card during your turn, if you have at least one Tool in your hand, play it." Some of your cards need some work. Here are my thoughts, going card-by-card:

Armor is probably alright, most of the time it will be a Junk Dealer without the extra .

Axe is interesting; it's a very risky card to put in your deck, but barring 3-piles, the worst it can do is discard the top card of your deck and cost you a card in your hand. That's a pretty low floor though, since in that case you may as well have a Ruined Village for the same effect it has on your turn. Granted, it will usually be at least somewhat better than that, but man, it'll suck hitting your green cards in the end game.

Bag of Holding as a cantrip workshop is probably fine.

Bow and Arrow really sounds like it should be an attack of some kind. Other than that, it's pricing is awkward. Better than Harbinger in most cases, but strictly worse than Mountain Village. I think for this card I'd go with , but again, it's kind of awkward.

Compass is essentially a mandatory Guide. The issue here is that while Guide gets saved for when you need it, Compass could just as easily read "+1 Card, discard the top 4 cards of your deck," and have the same basic effect on your hand and deck. This is one where being mandatory really hurts its attractiveness so much more than the other Tools. The only place I can really see using it is in some kind of Tunnel or Village Green scenario, and even then, Guide would be so many leagues better than this for only more.

Moccasins is really unattractive to me. The other tools have the benefit of being nonterminal, so you're usually not too upset to be forced to play one you didn't totally want to. This just sucks. Like, you could make a cute little engine by itself, but your payload better be basic treasures because that's the only way you're going to be able to buy anything. It's a very self-synergistic card, but unlike Sauna/Avanto, you won't have any extra actions to play anything else, and any villages you manage to play are wasted by the chain of Moccasins. Sauna/Avanto chains also have built-in trashing, while Moccasins are going to choke really hard, really quickly. On a flavor note, I'd probably call the card Hammer or Anvil, to relate to the precedent set by Smithy and Royal Blacksmith.

Rations' mandatory village thing is cute, especially since you can do it retroactively, like CotR or villagers. I don't understand the point of that last line of text though: how the hell are you playing this during your buy phase? There are only a couple ways that I can see that happening: 1) you have your +1 Card token on the Gladiator/Fortune, Encampment/Plunder, or Catapult/Rocks pile, and you play the treasure from that pile, or 2) Capitalism shenanigans. Neither of those are particularly likely to come up, especially since the first requires cards from 2 different expansions. I'd drop that rider, and probably reduce the cost to depending on how powerful it ends up being.

Spellbook needs a few things changed, not conceptually or power-wise, but for rules issues. First, it should have the Command type. Second, should specify non-command. Third, you probably also want to say non-victory and non-curse to avoid the "What happens if I use Spellbook to play an Estate or a Curse" inevitable question, unless you really want to be able to play Humble Castle and Island, in which case specifically call out Actions, Treasures, and Tools.

Sword is for a strictly worse Warehouse. Making it "just a lab" is probably not a bad thing and I doubt it would be worth . Sure, you can play it when you have no actions, but then you can't play any actions you draw, and when you have actions left, you don't get to choose when to play it. I think the tradeoffs make it an adequate at just +2 Cards, but perhaps not the most exciting. But they can't all be the most exciting lab variant ever. This is also a card that sounds like it should be an attack, but that's just flavor stuff.

Telescope is hard to judge power-level wise. The effect is interesting enough. I'd probably test it both at and at just to be sure.

Wagon should probably cost . It's a Market Square without the reaction that you can play when you have no actions left.

Battalion and Broken Sword are really cool. I'd change the wording on Battalion to "You may discard two cards. If you do, each other player..." as "making" a player do something isn't really card terminology that we have, and it sounds awkward to me. I like the concept of putting Tools in an opponent's deck as an attack. This is definitely my favorite of your designs.

Charlatan and Cursed Antique, another Tool "attack." I like that this is a defense against itself; you're given a cursed object by a charlatan, so you hire your own to get rid of it for you, but you're still stuck with the curses you already gained. Minor wording quibble, Charlatan should probably say "At the start of cleanup this turn..."

I hope I didn't sound too harsh, I sometimes have difficulty with that when trying to give constructive criticism. To be clear, I think Tools have merit, the execution could just use some polishing.
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Chappy7

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 01:53:53 am »
0

I probably wouldn't buy axe as it is. Too risky. Maybe it could say "Reveal the top card of your deck.  You may trash it.  If you do trash it, gain a card costing up to 2 more than it; if you don't trash it, put it back." I'm sure that can be worded better but you get the point.

I like the idea of your tool attack cards.  I personally think sword is too harsh. Not only is it a militia every time it comes around to start your turn, but it also is a junk card in and of itself. Once someone is dealing out multiple of these, people won't be having fun.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 03:07:06 am »
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Bag of Holding, Spellbook, Telescope, Wagon and Charlatan seem reasonably balanced. Battalion is ridiculously overpowered (it deals out junk which hurts more than a Curse and is extremely more difficult to get rid of than a Curse and it has a better on-play effect than Witch), Moccasins is strictly worse than Smithy, Sword is strictly worse than Lab, Bow and Arrow is strictly worse than Harbinger, and the rest seem pretty weak too.

Rations' mandatory village thing is cute, especially since you can do it retroactively, like CotR or villagers. I don't understand the point of that last line of text though: how the hell are you playing this during your buy phase? There are only a couple ways that I can see that happening: 1) you have your +1 Card token on the Gladiator/Fortune, Encampment/Plunder, or Catapult/Rocks pile, and you play the treasure from that pile, or 2) Capitalism shenanigans. Neither of those are particularly likely to come up, especially since the first requires cards from 2 different expansions. I'd drop that rider, and probably reduce the cost to depending on how powerful it ends up being.

You can also use:
 - Innovation+Artisan
 - Sea's Gift/Wind's Gift from Idol/Blessed Village
 - Bonfire/Advance/Enhance/Ritual/Trade/Cemetery/Farmland/Doctor/Plan/Cursed Village->War/Locusts to trash a Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estate
 - Gamble/March/Toil +cards
 - Messenger your Invested card
 - Sleigh
 - Sheepdog
 - Cavalry (although then it renders Cavalry's returning to the Action phase useless)
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 12:03:53 pm »
0

Is there a reason these aren't dual-typed as Action - Tool?

Perhaps Rations could have a "this is gained to hand" clause to make the "if it's your buy phase" clause relevant in more games?
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 12:23:53 pm »
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Bag of Holding, Spellbook, Telescope, Wagon and Charlatan seem reasonably balanced. Battalion is ridiculously overpowered (it deals out junk which hurts more than a Curse and is extremely more difficult to get rid of than a Curse and it has a better on-play effect than Witch), Moccasins is strictly worse than Smithy, Sword is strictly worse than Lab, Bow and Arrow is strictly worse than Harbinger, and the rest seem pretty weak too.

Bow and Arrow is usually worse than Mountain Village. It can be better than Harbinger because you only need a single card to move a card from your discard into your hand.

Moccasins is not strictly than Smith because it works regardless of whether you have an action. You could play a Smithy, draw a Moccasins, and then play it. You could draw deck without a village in fact, making the card possibly quite strong for a moneyish deck.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 12:35:46 pm »
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Is there a reason these aren't dual-typed as Action - Tool?

Why would they be? It would allow you to play one as a normal action, except for the fact that the Tool rule wouldn't ever allow you to have one in hand during a time that you could play a normal action. Which means that adding the Action type would only serve to make them combo with things like Throne Room.

*Edit* Actually I'm not sure it would ever be possible to play one with a Throne Room, because you can't have one in your hand while playing/resolving throne room. It would allow it to combo with things like Peddler and Lurker, but other than that it seems like it would cause confusion because there's no way to ever play one normally as an action.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:55:47 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 01:35:18 pm »
+1

A general note: Tools are worse than Actions as they are not Throne-able (plus Golem, Scrying Pool, Vassal and whatever else cares about a high Action density), Tools are better than Actions as you can never draw them dead.
This difference is identical to that of Nights vs. Actions but my hunch is that it matters more, especially with drawers. Rations is the obvious, Sauna style village and Wagon is also neat in this respect (no chance of drawing into that Market Square dead).

That is also why e.g. the notion that Sword is strictly worse than Lab is wrong. Sword is similar to Fugitive and whether it is better or worse depends on the Kingdom.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2020, 02:01:45 pm »
0

Is there a reason these aren't dual-typed as Action - Tool?

Why would they be? It would allow you to play one as a normal action, except for the fact that the Tool rule wouldn't ever allow you to have one in hand during a time that you could play a normal action. Which means that adding the Action type would only serve to make them combo with things like Throne Room.

*Edit* Actually I'm not sure it would ever be possible to play one with a Throne Room, because you can't have one in your hand while playing/resolving throne room. It would allow it to combo with things like Peddler and Lurker, but other than that it seems like it would cause confusion because there's no way to ever play one normally as an action.

If you Prince a Throne Room, both the TR and a Tool in hand would be "at the start of your turn', so you could choose to play the TR first. (or from a TR set aside by Ghost*, or other play at the start of your next turn options)

* or Ghost could fine the "Action-Tool" itself

That said, I agree it's simpler for them to be just Tools and not Actions.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 02:03:09 pm by scolapasta »
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 02:56:09 pm »
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Bag of Holding, Spellbook, Telescope, Wagon and Charlatan seem reasonably balanced. Battalion is ridiculously overpowered (it deals out junk which hurts more than a Curse and is extremely more difficult to get rid of than a Curse and it has a better on-play effect than Witch), Moccasins is strictly worse than Smithy, Sword is strictly worse than Lab, Bow and Arrow is strictly worse than Harbinger, and the rest seem pretty weak too.

Bow and Arrow is usually worse than Mountain Village. It can be better than Harbinger because you only need a single card to move a card from your discard into your hand.

Moccasins is not strictly than Smith because it works regardless of whether you have an action. You could play a Smithy, draw a Moccasins, and then play it. You could draw deck without a village in fact, making the card possibly quite strong for a moneyish deck.

Being worse than a card whose only purpose is to be a village, by not being a village, at the same price point as that village, is really bad. Sage's digging is way better than Farming Village's digging and Sage sucks at $3 while Farming Village is a good card at $4.

I don't think Moccasins/BM is ever a strong enough strategy to be viable, and if I'm wrong and it is actually strong somehow, then that's an even bigger problem because you literally only buy Silvers, Moccasins and victory cards in that game unless there's like Delve, in which case you buy Delve instead of Silver.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020, 05:00:45 pm »
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I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with Sage's digging being "way better than Farming Village's digging." Farming Village gets stronger once you start greening, whereas Sage's gets worse. I agree that Sage's digging is better in the early and mid-game, but Farming Village's is better in the late game, since it ignores your Provinces/Colonies instead of drawing them and nothing else. And all of this is assuming there's no trashing. If there's heavy trashing, then Sage fairly quickly becomes a useless cantrip.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 05:05:05 pm »
+1


I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with Sage's digging being "way better than Farming Village's digging." Farming Village gets stronger once you start greening, whereas Sage's gets worse. I agree that Sage's digging is better in the early and mid-game, but Farming Village's is better in the late game, since it ignores your Provinces/Colonies instead of drawing them and nothing else. And all of this is assuming there's no trashing. If there's heavy trashing, then Sage fairly quickly becomes a useless cantrip.

Don't get him started on Farming Village....
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2020, 05:08:21 pm »
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Is there a reason these aren't dual-typed as Action - Tool?

Why would they be? It would allow you to play one as a normal action, except for the fact that the Tool rule wouldn't ever allow you to have one in hand during a time that you could play a normal action. Which means that adding the Action type would only serve to make them combo with things like Throne Room.

*Edit* Actually I'm not sure it would ever be possible to play one with a Throne Room, because you can't have one in your hand while playing/resolving throne room. It would allow it to combo with things like Peddler and Lurker, but other than that it seems like it would cause confusion because there's no way to ever play one normally as an action.

Okay, that's a good point.  I was thinking they were played during your Action phase, but you have a valid point there that they don't work like Action cards
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2020, 05:18:01 pm »
+1



This should probably cost . Since it doesn't take an Action and can't be drawn dead, it compares favorably to a reaction-less Market Square.



This is WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too powerful. +3 Cards discard two cards is roughly the same strength as +2 Cards IMO. So this is basically a Witch that, instead of giving out Curses, gives out Curses that are way, way harder to get rid of AND that Militia you every time they're drawn. And note that since Broken Sword can be drawn and thus played during your turn, not just during Clean-up, the Militia effect is actually stronger than a regular Militia effect. Imagine drawing your deck and having a Broken Sword as the last drawn card. AND it's a Smithy when the Broken Swords run out, instead of a reaction-less Moat.

Battalion is too powerful at any cost, let alone the same cost as a card it completely outclasses.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 05:24:34 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2020, 05:48:29 pm »
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This should probably cost . Since it doesn't take an Action and can't be drawn dead, it compares favorably to a reaction-less Market Square.


I feel like Market Square's reaction (plus the advantages of being an Action in general like Throne Room, etc) is much better than the advantages of not being able to get drawn dead; so this at would be much worse than Market Square. Still might be too good for though; especially since +buy makes it easy to get several cost cards; so this compounds on itself and can get you the whole pile before too long.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2020, 05:52:47 pm »
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And note that since Broken Sword can be drawn and thus played during your turn, not just during Clean-up, the Militia effect is actually stronger than a regular Militia effect. Imagine drawing your deck and having a Broken Sword as the last drawn card.

Oh man I didn't notice this part. Yeah Broken Sword is completely... broken. No matter what sort of attack gives it out. Once it's in your deck, your deck can just be randomly shut down every turn depending on how late in the turn you happen to draw it.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2020, 05:58:40 pm »
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And note that since Broken Sword can be drawn and thus played during your turn, not just during Clean-up, the Militia effect is actually stronger than a regular Militia effect. Imagine drawing your deck and having a Broken Sword as the last drawn card.

Oh man I didn't notice this part. Yeah Broken Sword is completely... broken. No matter what sort of attack gives it out. Once it's in your deck, your deck can just be randomly shut down every turn depending on how late in the turn you happen to draw it.

I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2020, 06:11:46 pm »
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Thanks for everyone's feedback so far!! I've made some changes based on what people have said, which are reflected in my the original post:
Axe: I didn't want to make the trashing totally optional, as I like the risk Tools can add as a concept. I gave the gaining part a "may," however, so you have a bit more control over your deck (no need to turn Coppers into Estates).
Bow and Arrow: It's clear that my original concept for it was a little lacking. I liked Doom_Shark's idea that it thematically felt like an attack, so here's a distant cousin of Noble Brigand. I'm willing to believe the attack is currently too powerful, or too slow b/c of the decision making. I'm also willing to ditch the draw-from-discard clause.
Moccasins: Now paying an action to make it a smithy is a choice, so it won't outright end your Action phase out of the blue. You'll always get +1 Card from it, though.
Spellbook: Big whoopsies with the wording on this one. Hopefully it's all fixed up now.
Telescope: Cleaned it up a bit with a "Choose one" wording.
Wagon: I agree that it could cost $3 and be okay, so I upped the cost.
Battalion: I can see it being too oppressive and too easy to get, so now it has a condition that you have to intentionally meet to trigger. Hopefully that means it'll make the gains happen slower; if the condition is too slow, I'm willing to try an on-gain like mail-mi suggested.

I would ABSOLUTELY like to clarify that broken sword just makes you discard one card!! It just checks that you aren't low enough on cards to go below militia level if you do discard. I'm not crazy enough to make a card that would destroy your entire turn, don't worry lol.

Thank you again for all the helpful feedback. If you have any thoughts on these changes you'd like to share, I'd love to hear those too!!
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2020, 06:12:52 pm »
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I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.

That, or make the Broken Sword self-trash when played.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2020, 07:51:03 pm »
0

I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.

That, or make the Broken Sword self-trash when played.

Maybe Broken Sword could say, "You may reveal a curse from your hand. if you do, trash this."

GendoIkari

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2020, 07:54:22 pm »
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And note that since Broken Sword can be drawn and thus played during your turn, not just during Clean-up, the Militia effect is actually stronger than a regular Militia effect. Imagine drawing your deck and having a Broken Sword as the last drawn card.

Oh man I didn't notice this part. Yeah Broken Sword is completely... broken. No matter what sort of attack gives it out. Once it's in your deck, your deck can just be randomly shut down every turn depending on how late in the turn you happen to draw it.

I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.

Oh yeah, I misread it as discard down to.
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mail-mi

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2020, 07:55:22 pm »
+1

I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.

That, or make the Broken Sword self-trash when played.

I like that. Except, instead of self-trash, return it to its pile. So you can keep playing Battalions.

So it would be like

Broken Sword
Tool - $0*
If you have more than 4 cards in your hand, discard a card.
Return this to its pile.
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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2020, 09:16:35 pm »
0

I don't think it's quite that broken, it doesn't say "discard down to 4," it just says "discard a card" so it won't totally destroy you.

However i think it's not good that you can give opponents a broken sword every time you play it. Probably better to make it on-gain, like the other one.

That, or make the Broken Sword self-trash when played.

I like that. Except, instead of self-trash, return it to its pile. So you can keep playing Battalions.

So it would be like

Broken Sword
Tool - $0*
If you have more than 4 cards in your hand, discard a card.
Return this to its pile.

I think you've struck the right balance I was aiming for. That makes Battalion a-okay in my book. Of course, it's up to Supernova888 to give his thoughts about the idea. :)
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LittleFish

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2020, 07:23:55 pm »
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Maybe one that that reads "Look at the top card of your deck, you may discard it" to help with draws.
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Gubump

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Re: Card Type Concept: Tools
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2020, 01:28:38 am »
0

Battalion should be an Attack. I also don't like the fact that Charlatan is unblockable. To fix this, you could do something like:

Charlatan
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
At the start of Clean-up, you may trash a card you have in play. If it's a Charlatan, each other player gains a Cursed Antique.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 01:33:26 am by Gubump »
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