Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: RIP IRL  (Read 7303 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 9438
  • Respect: +10446
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2020, 09:57:57 am »
0

Randomness is about a lack of feasible means of predicting outcomes.  Even in these quantum reactions, I believe there's a tiny undiscovered coppersmith-quark or scout-quark that all along would have dictated a certain rate of radioactive decay by its presence, we just don't have a way of observing it and understanding it.

The laws of quantum mechanics, if they are right (and they seem to be), show that it is literally impossible, even if we knew every single thing about the quantum state, to know what the outcome will be.  Like I said, this is either as good as random or it is truly random.  In either case, it's as good as random.

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

I also am relatively uneducated here; but as I understand it, the spectrum of outcomes that all happen only all happen until the event is observed. Once we observe it; a specific outcome happens, and which one it will be is fully unpredictable even if  we knew everything about the starting inputs and the rules that govern what happens based on those inputs.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5119
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2885
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2020, 10:02:17 am »
0

Randomness is about a lack of feasible means of predicting outcomes.  Even in these quantum reactions, I believe there's a tiny undiscovered coppersmith-quark or scout-quark that all along would have dictated a certain rate of radioactive decay by its presence, we just don't have a way of observing it and understanding it.

The laws of quantum mechanics, if they are right (and they seem to be), show that it is literally impossible, even if we knew every single thing about the quantum state, to know what the outcome will be.  Like I said, this is either as good as random or it is truly random.  In either case, it's as good as random.

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

I also am relatively uneducated here; but as I understand it, the spectrum of outcomes that all happen only all happen until the event is observed. Once we observe it; a specific outcome happens, and which one it will be is fully unpredictable even if  we knew everything about the starting inputs and the rules that govern what happens based on those inputs.

No no, that's the Copenhagen interpretation. That's the theory of the-spontaneous-wave-function-collapse-that-happens-for-no-reason-whatsoever-except-that-the-alternative-is-scary. Under that interpretation, yes there is real non-determinism. But under the Many worlds interpretation there isn't.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2020, 12:42:59 pm »
0

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

The MW interpretation (which I am strongly against philosophically) falls under "as good as random".  In the particular world we are in, we don't know which outcome will happen.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5119
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2885
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2020, 01:20:06 pm »
0

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

The MW interpretation (which I am strongly against philosophically) falls under "as good as random".  In the particular world we are in, we don't know which outcome will happen.

All outcomes happen.
Logged

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3485
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3830
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2020, 01:31:38 pm »
0

Unless you have an experiment in which the Many Worlds interpretation offers different results from the others, that interpretation is as good or bad as any other. In practice, the results of observing a quantum system are random (with the exception of entanglement and so on).
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5119
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2885
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2020, 02:50:20 pm »
0

So, after the experiment happened, you don't know what world you're in, and I'm in favor of calling that uncertainty randomness. But from your pov before the experiment, there is no randomness. Every outcome happens and you're witnessing all of them.
Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1687
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • I wish my username had the links like it once did.
  • Respect: +1514
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2020, 04:53:35 pm »
+5

This thread:

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2020, 04:58:58 pm »
0

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

The MW interpretation (which I am strongly against philosophically) falls under "as good as random".  In the particular world we are in, we don't know which outcome will happen.

All outcomes happen.

Yes, but we don't know which one we will observe, and as I said before, it's as good as random, even if it is not actually random.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5119
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2885
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2020, 05:18:55 pm »
0

I don't think that's true. Not that I'm a physicist, but I think the laws of quantum mechanics say there is a spectrum of outcomes that all happen. (Under the MW interpretation, which is almost certainly correct.)

The MW interpretation (which I am strongly against philosophically) falls under "as good as random".  In the particular world we are in, we don't know which outcome will happen.

All outcomes happen.

Yes, but we don't know which one we will observe, and as I said before, it's as good as random, even if it is not actually random.

You observe all of them.

It's easy to get trapped thinking one outcome will happen. I've noticed it with myself. Even though I think about MW all the time, at one point I was still thinking "man I hope I'll be in one of the worlds where Trump loses the election" before remembering that I'm guaranteed to be both in worlds where he does and in worlds where he doesn't. If there's a quantum experiment, there is no randomness as to which result you observe; you observe all of them. Only once the experiment has passed does it make sense to think about which one happened.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2020, 05:42:50 pm »
0

You observe all of them.

It's easy to get trapped thinking one outcome will happen. I've noticed it with myself. Even though I think about MW all the time, at one point I was still thinking "man I hope I'll be in one of the worlds where Trump loses the election" before remembering that I'm guaranteed to be both in worlds where he does and in worlds where he doesn't. If there's a quantum experiment, there is no randomness as to which result you observe; you observe all of them. Only once the experiment has passed does it make sense to think about which one happened.

But it's still as good as random for any purpose you would want something random.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5477
  • Respect: +2856
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2020, 06:12:13 pm »
+2

I want the kind of random where I can cheat at gambling and make more money than everyone else for as long as I don't get caught.  Can quantum mechanics help me do that?

Netrunner seems to think it can
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5119
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2885
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2020, 03:02:30 am »
0

But it's still as good as random for any purpose you would want something random.

Yes, that's true.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1642
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2020, 08:49:16 am »
0

Agreed. And to amplify:

Not only can we safely consider quantum effects random for practical purposes such as Dominion shuffling, but the various contender physical models agree that there's nothing more random available.
Logged

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 561
  • Respect: +715
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2020, 12:08:48 pm »
+1

Is Zach Weiner (SMBC) a Dominion player, or is this just coincidence?

(this comic posted yesterday)



https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/interpretation
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 02:39:53 pm by scolapasta »
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6164
  • Respect: +24987
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2020, 01:58:49 pm »
+1

SMBC has done quantum mechanics many times, so I wouldn't look for a connection there.

Also seething chaos looks exactly like hyperdeterminism. MWI is a poor way to frame what's actually happening. There's no branching. There are just multiple universes and you don't know which set you're in yet, for a particular event that hasn't happened.
Logged

Honkeyfresh

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 539
  • DSF lowest ratio upvotes-posts 14 yrs & counting
  • Respect: +172
    • View Profile
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2020, 08:10:11 pm »
0

I miss playing Dominion in person.  :-\

why?  You must really like shuffling.

I own 5 sets and if in the same room I'd rather each person get on their own device and play online.
Logged
"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

spineflu

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1365
  • Shuffle iT Username: spineflu
  • Head Empty, Heart Worms, Can't Lose
  • Respect: +1331
    • View Profile
    • my instagram, where i paint things
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2020, 07:24:33 am »
+1

I miss playing Dominion in person.  :-\

why?  You must really like shuffling.

I own 5 sets and if in the same room I'd rather each person get on their own device and play online.

cant add your own homebrew cards to the shuffleit client

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1688
  • Respect: +1160
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: RIP IRL
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2020, 11:25:36 pm »
0

I miss playing Dominion in person.  :-\

why?  You must really like shuffling.

I own 5 sets and if in the same room I'd rather each person get on their own device and play online.
Ive never played online. I own everything up to Renaissance.

Yes, it is difficult to find people who are interested in playing.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 22 queries.