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Author Topic: Fleet vs Seize the Day  (Read 4258 times)

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GendoIkari

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Fleet vs Seize the Day
« on: March 25, 2020, 12:18:06 pm »
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I just noticed that Fleet and Seize the Day are very similar. Why does Fleet cost more? It seems to me that the extra turn you get from Fleet is generally going to be worse than the extra turn you get from Seize the Day... the Fleet turn will often have no more Provinces available, gaining non-VP cards won't help, etc.

The one advantage I can see in Fleet is that you can buy it at any time that you have an extra to spend; when you buy it doesn't change when your extra turn is. But with Seize the Day, you have to buy it at the same time you want your extra turn.

Still though, wouldn't Seize the Day even at still be generally better than Fleet? And yet it only costs .
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D782802859

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 12:24:30 pm »
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The only reason I can think of is that Fleet might be too automatic as a buy at 4, something Donald was trying to avoid with Project design. Seize the Day doesn't have that problem as much, since it's an event.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 12:31:31 pm »
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The only reason I can think of is that Fleet might be too automatic as a buy at 4, something Donald was trying to avoid with Project design. Seize the Day doesn't have that problem as much, since it's an event.

I can see Fleet being an automatic buy similar to how Seize the Day is an automatic buy; but both of them still have strategic decisions about when to buy them. I mean, a once-per-game Event basically is a Project in every way.
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D782802859

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 12:34:44 pm »
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The only reason I can think of is that Fleet might be too automatic as a buy at 4, something Donald was trying to avoid with Project design. Seize the Day doesn't have that problem as much, since it's an event.

I can see Fleet being an automatic buy similar to how Seize the Day is an automatic buy; but both of them still have strategic decisions about when to buy them. I mean, a once-per-game Event basically is a Project in every way.
Fives are very strong, and some boards mean you might want to skip it because of that. Cost reduction based boards especially, since they can't reduce the cost of Projects. Seize the Day works for those megaturns and other types of megaturns, Fleet typically does not.
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dpm

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 01:33:03 pm »
+1

Maybe it's to give players more of a possibility of taking the extra turn early in the game? 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 01:33:34 pm »
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The only reason I can think of is that Fleet might be too automatic as a buy at 4, something Donald was trying to avoid with Project design. Seize the Day doesn't have that problem as much, since it's an event.

I can see Fleet being an automatic buy similar to how Seize the Day is an automatic buy; but both of them still have strategic decisions about when to buy them. I mean, a once-per-game Event basically is a Project in every way.
Fives are very strong, and some boards mean you might want to skip it because of that. Cost reduction based boards especially, since they can't reduce the cost of Projects. Seize the Day works for those megaturns and other types of megaturns, Fleet typically does not.

Yeah I meant if Fleet were , it would be more of an automatic buy the same as Seize the Day. I mean Donate is an automatic buy too; but still lots of interesting strategy in when you buy it.
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urza

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 01:58:21 pm »
+1

The thing about Fleet is it doesn't matter when you buy it, as long as you buy it at some point before the end of the game.  This is not true of Seize the Day, where timing it is super important, and so it would make sense for it to cost less.

Honestly, since you can only use it once per game, having it cost 0 would probably be fine.  The main challenge with it is figuring out when your deck in in peak shape, rather than just finding the best turn where you have an expendable $5 to throw at Fleet.
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Gherald

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 02:03:27 pm »
+1

Indeed the key difference is when you buy them. Depending on your proclivities, STD is something you might contract with early in your Dominion Kingdom experience, whereas Fleet is generally a later-in-life commitment when you have additional income to invest.

0 cost is a liberal approach, but yes some people are all for that
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Donald X.

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 02:29:19 pm »
+4

I just noticed that Fleet and Seize the Day are very similar. Why does Fleet cost more? It seems to me that the extra turn you get from Fleet is generally going to be worse than the extra turn you get from Seize the Day... the Fleet turn will often have no more Provinces available, gaining non-VP cards won't help, etc.
Main answer: When I made Fleet, I settled on $5; when I made Seize the Day, I settled on $4. They were made at different times and each had to deal with "what should I cost." Seize the Day was not going to answer that with "just copy Fleet, whatever." If Fleet had been a whole category of cards, I might have felt like, this needs to fit in relative to Fleet; it wasn't, it was one card, and I could just make Seize the Day better or worse than it if that was best.

But also. Fleet you can buy whenever, just do it before the game is over. The extra turn is likely to at least get you a Duchy, so it wants to cost at least as much as Duchy. Seize the Day does its thing when you buy it; it wants to be cheaper so that it's tempting to buy it earlier in the game, making it more interesting.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 02:31:55 pm »
+7

STD is something you might contract with early

Ugh
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jomini

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 06:06:42 pm »
+1

I am still getting a feel for Carpe diem, but there are a lot of cases where I want Fleet over it.

First is when I just want insurance against a 3-pile next turn. Say my opponent can gain more cheap cards than me. Maybe I can gain 7 cards off Procession/Gainer/Buy and he can gain 9. Next turn he can pile out and win with a single estate buy. I buy Fleet. Now I have insurance for the rest of the game. Maybe my deck can buy more VP (e.g. He has an extra Workshop while I have two more golds so I can hit two provinces to his one) so this is a win for me. If I try to deal with the 3 pile threat by Seizing, then I need to green and maybe start wrecking my engine. Much better to grab Fleet and leave the engine to live another day.

Likewise, I may have a shuffle where I have leftover cash and a not-so-hot next turn lined up. Seizing could well mean that I just buy a duchy and miss out on the chance to use the bonus turn for something with a lot more points (e.g. three duchies). This is particularly true if we are running around with cards like Margrave, Minion, Gov, etc. that could help me have a non-busted turn by letting my opponent go first. A less common option would be if I have a bunch of reactions that I would rather play (e.g. set up a top deck of Black cats, Sheep dogs, and Falconers); you playing first can let me spike a lot of reactions which are particularly strong in this expansion.

And, lest we forget, Fleet lets us do things shift like cards out of VP to end the game and then back next turn to win it. Say I Stonemason two provinces. Burning 12 VP is harsh, but I can gain, say, the last 4 Kc's and end the game. I can then flip two of those Kc's into 4 duchies for a net point wash. Siezing has to keep your VP intact and leave the game in an un-ended state at the end of your first turn, while also leaving you $4 that turn to trigger a game ending turn.

Which is perhaps the biggest difference between the two. Fleet takes any spare $5 most of the time so it is relatively easy to work it into your buys. Seizing becomes a bind. Wait too long and you just get a duchy. Do it too early and you open a lot game-ending threats to the other guy that you have to honor (e.g. he can three-pile with twice as many cards left in deck as you). I suspect that there are a lot of end games where seizing would be the wrong call at $5. As your engine tanks during game end you need to seize sometime, but when is a very different buy calculus than Fleet.
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dirkdebeule

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Re: Fleet vs Seize the Day
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 02:15:28 pm »
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Fleet is strongest when you can do a curse-attack or extra VP, combined with greening a Duchy (or even estate).
Seize the Day is strongest in endgame when max 4 Provinces left and you can buy one during your turn and another in your extra turn.
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