Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Looking at cards as you draw them  (Read 646 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1413
  • Respect: +1571
    • View Profile
Looking at cards as you draw them
« on: March 25, 2020, 10:48:42 am »
0

I was considering this puzzle. I wondered: could the Road Network Project establish a chain of events that resulted in one acquiring VP?

Answer: no. Dominion currently has no on-draw effects.

But that set me thinking: are such effects even possible? In particular, when you draw a card are you allowed to look at it before adding it to your hand? If not, there'd be no way to keep such effects honest. At least not without some fancy trick like different card backs or only triggering when you draw into an empty hand.

I appreciate this question is of no practical significance at the moment, but it amused me enough to share anyway. (-8
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8806
  • Respect: +9598
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 11:59:01 am »
0

This was discussed recently in this thread.

It's the "Miracle" mechanic from MTG. I think in the most technical sense; there is no game time that passes between playing a card that says "+1 card", and actually having that extra card in your hand. The moment that you play that card, the top card of your deck should now be considered to be in your hand with all the other cards; it's only real-world slowness that causes there to be a delay.

So no, there is no time that you can be looking at or revealing a drawn card before it is added to your hand. If Donald wanted to have a "when you draw" mechanic; it would have to be handled similarly to MTG's Miracle; which basically adds rules that are just there for accountability... the card is considered for rule purposes to already be in your hand; but in physical play, you delay adding it to your hand so that you can reveal it if necessary.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

mxdata

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • Respect: +466
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 12:05:06 pm »
+2

There's no rule that says you can't look at it before adding it to your hand, and in a practical sense, you usually see it before it's physically in your hand.  But, as you said, it would be a nightmare for tracking.  It would be easy enough to set it up as part of a specific card's draw, e.g., the way Library works, but to have a particular card be triggered by being drawn, while maintaining tracking, you'd have to make every draw be like Library's, which would be a pain

However, I can actually see a possible card that would work: Suppose you had a card with a reaction like "You may discard [or play] this from a hand of six or more cards ..."  Then in that case, the draw from Road Network, or any other source such as Council Room, could trigger an effect
Logged
They/them

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8806
  • Respect: +9598
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 12:11:01 pm »
+1

However, I can actually see a possible card that would work: Suppose you had a card with a reaction like "You may discard [or play] this from a hand of six or more cards ..."  Then in that case, the draw from Road Network, or any other source such as Council Room, could trigger an effect

The problem with this type of effect is that there's no timing given for when it is allowed. So 2 players could both want to play their card simultaneously; and there's no "priority" system determining who gets to act when. Even if it were limited to being your turn, things you can do "at any time" are messy. I believe spending a Villager for an Action is something you can do "at any time", but at least that's limited its effect.

No reason though that you couldn't simply have a Sheepdog type reaction that says "When you draw a card, you may play this from your hand." As long as it works based on drawing any card; not just drawing "this". Though the problem with that type of effect is that it slows the game down by requiring +3 cards to be resolved more slowly; drawing 1 card at a time.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1413
  • Respect: +1571
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 12:23:59 pm »
0

The problem with this type of effect is that there's no timing given for when it is allowed. So 2 players could both want to play their card simultaneously
Why is that not covered adequately by the universal "When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order starting with the player whose turn it is." rule?
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8806
  • Respect: +9598
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 12:26:19 pm »
0

The problem with this type of effect is that there's no timing given for when it is allowed. So 2 players could both want to play their card simultaneously
Why is that not covered adequately by the universal "When two things happen to different players at the same time, go in turn order starting with the player whose turn it is." rule?

Because there is no "same time" in this case. If either player has the right to play their card, in the same window of time (anytime), then it would come down to which player decides to act first in real time. The "same time" rule would only apply if both players literally did try to act 100% simultaneously. In other words, the player whose turn it isn't has the right to play the card at any time, they can choose to play it 1 second into the current player's turn. The current player might want to play their card 2 seconds into their turn.

*Edit* So unlike what I said that you quoted, the problem isn't actually when they do want to both play simultaneously... that would be covered by the rule you mention. The problem is that there could be a real-time race about who speaks up first. If one player speaks up first, it's not simultaneous anymore so the rule doesn't apply. Or a game of chicken where each player wants to play the card but only after the other player does.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 12:29:53 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3043
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +3958
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 12:53:29 pm »
+2

I was considering this puzzle. I wondered: could the Road Network Project establish a chain of events that resulted in one acquiring VP?

Answer: no.

Opponent gains Victory card. Road Network draws me +1 card. The card I draw is Black Cat. I play that Black Cat in reaction to the opponent's gain, but I play it according to the Way of the Mole. I discard a Tunnel and gain a Gold, which increases the value of my Fairgrounds and Gardens. Thereby I acquire VP as a result of a chain of events set off by Road Network. Bingo-bongo.
Logged

scolapasta

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 390
  • Respect: +385
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 01:14:27 pm »
+5

I was considering this puzzle. I wondered: could the Road Network Project establish a chain of events that resulted in one acquiring VP?

Answer: no.

Opponent gains Victory card. Road Network draws me +1 card. The card I draw is Black Cat. I play that Black Cat in reaction to the opponent's gain, but I play it according to the Way of the Mole. I discard a Tunnel and gain a Gold, which increases the value of my Fairgrounds and Gardens. Thereby I acquire VP as a result of a chain of events set off by Road Network. Bingo-bongo.

Or just play that Black Cat as Way of the Worm, exiling An Estate.
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1413
  • Respect: +1571
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 01:32:17 pm »
0

Opponent gains Victory card. Road Network draws me +1 card.
But you might as well have had the Black Cat in your hand already.
Logged

hhelibebcnofnena

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 522
  • he/him
  • Respect: +398
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 01:41:49 pm »
+1

I think the question was more:
could the Road Network Project establish a chain of events [which cannot be established from a later starting point] that resulted in one acquiring VP?
(The words in brackets are my addition).

Road Network drawing Black Cat can be established from a later starting point by just having Black Cat in your hand already.
Logged
Hydrogen Helium Lithium Beryllium Boron Carbon Nitrogen Oxygen Fluorine Neon Sodium

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1278
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 12:18:02 pm »
0

Don't we already have this in Dominion with exactly Library? With Library you draw a card and then you may set it aside if it's an Action. There's no way technically to keep you honest, you could draw a Copper and set aside a dead Action you already had. (That's why I used to think that you technically look at* each card and then decide to put it into your hand or not but with your -1 Card token Donald confirmed that you draw each card with Library.)

Of course nobody doesn't just show the card before adding it to their hand if it's an Action card they want to set aside. Not even in a tournament I think you would ever need special rules for Library.

So why is a card that says "when you draw this, you may reveal it to get +1 VP" different?

*Edit: Changed from "reveal" to "look at". I actually used to think "look at", which makes more sense.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 05:55:22 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8806
  • Respect: +9598
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 12:46:49 pm »
0

Don't we already have this in Dominion with exactly Library? With Library you draw a card and then you may set it aside if it's an Action. There's no way technically to keep you honest, you could draw a Copper and set aside a dead Action you already had. (That's why I used to think that you technically reveal each card and then decide to put it into your hand or not - this was before "reveal" mattered with Patron of course - but with your -1 Card token Donald confirmed that you draw each card with Library.)

Of course nobody doesn't just show the card before adding it to their hand if it's an Action card they want to set aside. Not even in a tournament I think you would ever need special rules for Library.

So why is a card that says "when you draw this, you may reveal it to get +1 VP" different?

With first edition Library that's definitely correct, since you set aside actions that are "drawn this way". With second edition Library, it's more ambiguous... it never says you draw the actions, it says you "skip" them. It doesn't give a mechanism for how you go about seeing the actions that you choose to skip; but it doesn't make it sound like they were ever drawn or in your hand either.

If there were a Project/Landmark that said "+1 for each card you draw during your action phase", it's clear with first edition Library that skipped action cards would still give you a , but I don't think they would with second edition library.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1904
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1278
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2020, 03:22:58 pm »
0

With first edition Library that's definitely correct, since you set aside actions that are "drawn this way". With second edition Library, it's more ambiguous... it never says you draw the actions, it says you "skip" them. It doesn't give a mechanism for how you go about seeing the actions that you choose to skip; but it doesn't make it sound like they were ever drawn or in your hand either.

If there were a Project/Landmark that said "+1 for each card you draw during your action phase", it's clear with first edition Library that skipped action cards would still give you a , but I don't think they would with second edition library.

I have not heard that 2nd-edition Library is supposed to be functionally different. This was never mentioned as a problematic mechanism in the first edition, so I don't see why it would be changed.

Since we know that all the cards that Library puts in your hand are drawn (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to remove your -1 Card token), the only way it can work like you say, is that the card is still on your deck as you're deciding whether to set it aside or not.

Let's say the top card is an Action card and you want it. According to your interpretation you look at it without putting it in your hand, then you choose to draw it. So either you can draw it from a place outside your deck, or it's still on your deck. Well, the first option is definitely out. So then Library tells you to "look at" the card from your deck before deciding whether to draw it or set it aside. But it can't be look at, because cards being looked at are not on your deck (see Lookout).

So to me it really sounds like it's still like the first edition: Physically, you pick up the card and look at it, making sure that it's not put in with the rest of your hand yet, but this counts as drawing. Then you decide.

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5816
  • Respect: +23445
    • View Profile
Re: Looking at cards as you draw them
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 02:54:25 am »
0

With first edition Library that's definitely correct, since you set aside actions that are "drawn this way". With second edition Library, it's more ambiguous... it never says you draw the actions, it says you "skip" them. It doesn't give a mechanism for how you go about seeing the actions that you choose to skip; but it doesn't make it sound like they were ever drawn or in your hand either.

If there were a Project/Landmark that said "+1 for each card you draw during your action phase", it's clear with first edition Library that skipped action cards would still give you a , but I don't think they would with second edition library.

I have not heard that 2nd-edition Library is supposed to be functionally different. This was never mentioned as a problematic mechanism in the first edition, so I don't see why it would be changed.

Since we know that all the cards that Library puts in your hand are drawn (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to remove your -1 Card token), the only way it can work like you say, is that the card is still on your deck as you're deciding whether to set it aside or not.

Let's say the top card is an Action card and you want it. According to your interpretation you look at it without putting it in your hand, then you choose to draw it. So either you can draw it from a place outside your deck, or it's still on your deck. Well, the first option is definitely out. So then Library tells you to "look at" the card from your deck before deciding whether to draw it or set it aside. But it can't be look at, because cards being looked at are not on your deck (see Lookout).

So to me it really sounds like it's still like the first edition: Physically, you pick up the card and look at it, making sure that it's not put in with the rest of your hand yet, but this counts as drawing. Then you decide.
Correct; I haven't studied it but there was no intentional change there.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.087 seconds with 22 queries.