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Author Topic: "You may" on Events  (Read 1149 times)

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Jeebus

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"You may" on Events
« on: March 23, 2020, 01:35:41 pm »
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not a buy it?

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2020, 01:46:24 pm »
+6

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not a buy it?

You could just choose not to buy it, but Donald X. doesn't like creating cards where accountability could be an issue. If Advance said, "trash an Action card from your hand," then there is no way for other players to know if you have an Action card in your hand. This never matters, because why would you choose to buy Advance otherwise, but maybe in the future there will be a Reaction discard-attack type thing which reacts to buying an Event, or something.
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silverspawn

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2020, 01:49:08 pm »
+2

Put differently: if there's no reason to lie, does the lie still count?

ADvance does introduce a tracking issue: I buy it, claim not to have action cards in my hand, you can't verify it. You could (and as I understand, are) arguing that it doesn't matter since it's impossible for me to gain anything out of that (pun not intended), and I probably agree, but it's not obvious that everyone would.

PPEd
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Ingix

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 03:58:37 am »
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One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 11:53:47 am by Ingix »
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crj

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 11:37:05 am »
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..."Courier"?
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 11:45:38 am »
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..."Courier"?

Probably Messenger
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Ingix

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 11:54:29 am »
0

Right. Backtranslating from German is often not the best idea.
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Donald X.

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 01:17:51 pm »
+3

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not a buy it?
I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not a buy it?

You could just choose not to buy it, but Donald X. doesn't like creating cards where accountability could be an issue. If Advance said, "trash an Action card from your hand," then there is no way for other players to know if you have an Action card in your hand. This never matters, because why would you choose to buy Advance otherwise, but maybe in the future there will be a Reaction discard-attack type thing which reacts to buying an Event, or something.
I'm not sure if this has been asked before, or maybe someone just understands it. Why do Advance, Quest, Delay and Enhance start with "you may"? Does it make any difference, since you could just choose not a buy it?

You could just choose not to buy it, but Donald X. doesn't like creating cards where accountability could be an issue. If Advance said, "trash an Action card from your hand," then there is no way for other players to know if you have an Action card in your hand. This never matters, because why would you choose to buy Advance otherwise, but maybe in the future there will be a Reaction discard-attack type thing which reacts to buying an Event, or something.
Correct. For those four in particular, you may not be able to do the thing, and it's telling you to do the thing; "you may" is the tersest way to deal with "keeping you honest." In practice it doesn't matter - since you'd just not buy the Event - but it's a good habit picked up from it actually mattering for kingdom cards.

In some cases, "you may" helps me get a more natural phrasing; I prefer not to tell you to do something and then check if you did it, because it looks weird to casual players.

For online play, the "you may" can be annoying; you wouldn't have clicked on whatever if you didn't want to do it, and sure don't need to be asked again. That's the kind of thing that can be fixed with an autoplay though.
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Jeebus

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2020, 01:49:28 pm »
0

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

GendoIkari

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 12:22:37 pm »
0

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 12:48:19 pm »
+1

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I just tested both; at least in Dominion Online, "once per turn" and "once per game" are both limits on how many times you can buy them.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2020, 12:55:01 pm »
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One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I would assume that's a limit on how many times the effect can happen, not on how many times you can buy it.
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mxdata

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2020, 01:02:23 pm »
+3

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I would assume that's a limit on how many times the effect can happen, not on how many times you can buy it.

The Menagerie rulebook doesn't specify, but in the Adventures roolbook, on events like Alms it says "You can only buy this once per turn"
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GendoIkari

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2020, 01:32:08 pm »
0

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I would assume that's a limit on how many times the effect can happen, not on how many times you can buy it.

The Menagerie rulebook doesn't specify, but in the Adventures roolbook, on events like Alms it says "You can only buy this once per turn"

Well there you go. The first edition Adventures events were even more confusing, since the +1 buy came before the "once per turn" text.
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mxdata

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2020, 05:15:48 pm »
+1

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I would assume that's a limit on how many times the effect can happen, not on how many times you can buy it.

The Menagerie rulebook doesn't specify, but in the Adventures roolbook, on events like Alms it says "You can only buy this once per turn"

.... Did I really type "roolbook"? *facepalm*
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Dami4070

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2020, 08:28:45 am »
+1

One totally edge case reason Stef came up with is that you may want to buy a Messenger (corrected), but not distribute cards. Choosing a "you may" Event first allows you to do that (so Courier isn't your first buy). But I think the real reason is what hhelibebcnofnena wrote, maybe you misread Enhance and wanted to Enchance a Province into a Province and your opponent doesn't let you take back the buy, then you can just say that you don't want to Enhance anything.

I guess if we're looking for even edgier cases, it could be that you're planning to somehow play Storyteller and don't want to draw that much. Either you're planning to go back to your Action phase (Villa or Cavalry), or you're going to play it in you Buy phase after you started buying (through Innovation, Gamble or Way of the Mouse).

Are you allowed to buy "once per turn" and "once per game" events more than once? Is the "once per turn" a limit on how many times you can buy it, or how many times the effect can happen? Can you buy it for no effect the second time?

I would assume that's a limit on how many times the effect can happen, not on how many times you can buy it.

The Menagerie rulebook doesn't specify, but in the Adventures roolbook, on events like Alms it says "You can only buy this once per turn"

.... Did I really type "roolbook"? *facepalm*

You even managed to spell it right earlier in that sentence!
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2020, 10:25:53 pm »
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The one that makes no sense is desperation.  Like if you decline the may and don't buy the card, there is literally no reason to buy the event.  Bonus points that it has an option underneath too...
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GendoIkari

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2020, 10:48:28 pm »
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The one that makes no sense is desperation.  Like if you decline the may and don't buy the card, there is literally no reason to buy the event.  Bonus points that it has an option underneath too...

Desperation makes sense because of the "if you do" wording. Donald explained that above:

In some cases, "you may" helps me get a more natural phrasing; I prefer not to tell you to do something and then check if you did it, because it looks weird to casual players.

It makes sense. Madman has this problem, and it does indeed look weird.
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Ingix

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Re: "You may" on Events
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2020, 03:57:06 am »
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The one that makes no sense is desperation.  Like if you decline the may and don't buy the card, there is literally no reason to buy the event.  Bonus points that it has an option underneath too...

Desperation was the original source of Stef's example above. Contrieved for sure, but understandable.
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