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Author Topic: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate  (Read 6274 times)

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Jeebus

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Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« on: March 21, 2020, 03:28:47 pm »
+2

Mountain Pass: "When you are the first player to gain a Province, after that turn..."

If a player gains a Province during Donate, it's nobody's turn. So then I guess Mountain Pass will never trigger during that game?

Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2020, 03:31:03 pm »
0

In the same vein, if a player plays Possession, the extra turn won't happen? ("The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one")

GendoIkari

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2020, 03:44:05 pm »
+1

I feel like your Fortune scenario should be asked along with these. They all ask "what does 'this turn' mean when it is not currently any turn"?

This comes up in MTG... there are cards that say "After this main phase..." These cards normally can only be cast during a main phase, but if you manage to cast one when it is not a main phase, then they don't do anything, because "after this main phase" is simply something that never exists, because it isn't currently "this main phase".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 03:46:15 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2020, 03:52:16 pm »
+1

I feel like your Fortune scenario should be asked along with these. They all ask "what does 'this turn' mean when it is not currently any turn"?

I assumed Fortune was clear. Like someone wrote (I think Ingix), Crown doesn't do anything during Donate.
EDIT: Ok, I read the replies and I agree. It's not clear either.

So: Can you even double your money with Fortune during Donate? If so, I assume you can do it several times.

Here's another one: You resolve Donate and play Necromancer, and turn a card in the trash "face down for the turn". Does it get turned face down? If yes, when does it turn back? If your opponent has a turn now, and plays Necromancer, can he play the face-down card?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 03:54:46 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2020, 03:57:38 pm »
0

Cards like Crossroads and Fool's Gold seem clearer. It really looks like Crossroads would never give +Actions, and Fool's Gold would always give +$4.

GendoIkari

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2020, 03:58:05 pm »
+2

There's a few ways this could go, but I think the simplest solution would be to have a ruling that just says that "in between turns" counts as its own turn. It isn't any particular player's turn; but it is a turn. So Innovation does nothing because it isn't "your turn", but all these other things basically act like normal.
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Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2020, 04:02:00 pm »
+1

Actually we have a ruling as precedent, that I already had in my rules document. Maybe that's why I was making assumptions.
It's about River's Gift: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18334.msg749224#msg749224
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 04:03:06 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2020, 04:11:18 pm »
+2

Actually we have a ruling as precedent, that I already had in my rules document. Maybe that's why I was making assumptions.
It's about River's Gift: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18334.msg749224#msg749224

Ah, yeah. So I guess Faithful hound is different because it doesn't say "this"?  I don't really like it, because it seems like the only reason Faithful hound doesn't say "end of this turn" is to save space; "put it into your hand at end of turn" is weird and awkward wording that sounds like it is "supposed" to say "put it into your hand at the end of this turn".
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Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2020, 05:00:30 pm »
0

Actually we have a ruling as precedent, that I already had in my rules document. Maybe that's why I was making assumptions.
It's about River's Gift: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18334.msg749224#msg749224

Ah, yeah. So I guess Faithful hound is different because it doesn't say "this"?  I don't really like it, because it seems like the only reason Faithful hound doesn't say "end of this turn" is to save space; "put it into your hand at end of turn" is weird and awkward wording that sounds like it is "supposed" to say "put it into your hand at the end of this turn".

I agree, I would have thought Faithful Hound shouldn't have worked either.

Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2020, 01:50:27 am »
0

I'm actually thinking that Way of the Mouse should have said "if it's your turn", like Innovation. That way we would have avoided all these questions, including the ones about +Actions on another player's turn or during Donate, and probably a bunch of others. I always assumed Innovation had that restriction in order to avoid exactly this kind of undefined space. Maybe it could be an errata at some point. BoM and Inheritance got errata to make them clearer and avoid all this confusing stuff.

GendoIkari

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2020, 01:54:22 am »
+1

I hope not; I’m a fan of all the rare craziness; assuming a clear set of rules can be defined.
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Donald X.

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2020, 04:28:26 pm »
0

Mountain Pass: "When you are the first player to gain a Province, after that turn..."

If a player gains a Province during Donate, it's nobody's turn. So then I guess Mountain Pass will never trigger during that game?
Yes, it would never trigger.
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Donald X.

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2020, 04:28:38 pm »
0

In the same vein, if a player plays Possession, the extra turn won't happen? ("The player to your left takes an extra turn after this one")
Yes.
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Donald X.

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2020, 04:30:04 pm »
+1

So: Can you even double your money with Fortune during Donate? If so, I assume you can do it several times.

Here's another one: You resolve Donate and play Necromancer, and turn a card in the trash "face down for the turn". Does it get turned face down? If yes, when does it turn back? If your opponent has a turn now, and plays Necromancer, can he play the face-down card?
You can double your $ repeatedly.

Tentatively the card doesn't turn face down.
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Donald X.

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2020, 04:35:10 pm »
+4

I'm actually thinking that Way of the Mouse should have said "if it's your turn", like Innovation. That way we would have avoided all these questions, including the ones about +Actions on another player's turn or during Donate, and probably a bunch of others. I always assumed Innovation had that restriction in order to avoid exactly this kind of undefined space. Maybe it could be an errata at some point. BoM and Inheritance got errata to make them clearer and avoid all this confusing stuff.
This isn't the fix at all. The fix is, there should not be stuff happening between-turns (except for determining whose turn is next, which Outpost etc. can safely mess with). Why is there? Because of the interaction between Donate and Possession (it's not that you trash all their stuff, which doesn't matter since Possession gives it back; it's that you empty their hand). The correct thing there was to give up on that; that game is still awful, there was no fixing it. Then, Mountain Pass is between turns so Possession doesn't affect who makes the decision to take 40 debt. But I later fixed that on Possession itself.

Will I ever fix Donate and Mountain Pass to not be between turns? Man, maybe. I don't need to make that decision today.
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Jeebus

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2020, 06:22:00 pm »
0

This isn't the fix at all. The fix is, there should not be stuff happening between-turns (except for determining whose turn is next, which Outpost etc. can safely mess with). Why is there? Because of the interaction between Donate and Possession (it's not that you trash all their stuff, which doesn't matter since Possession gives it back; it's that you empty their hand). The correct thing there was to give up on that; that game is still awful, there was no fixing it. Then, Mountain Pass is between turns so Possession doesn't affect who makes the decision to take 40 debt. But I later fixed that on Possession itself.

Will I ever fix Donate and Mountain Pass to not be between turns? Man, maybe. I don't need to make that decision today.

With that fix you would still have the question of how many Coins and Actions you start other players' turns with. But yeah, I think you would avoid everything else, like all the stuff in this thread, and the question of whether you keep your Coins and Actions until the next player's turn.

But honestly, I'm even doubting whether I will include these rulings in my document, because they're so unlikely to ever matter. You need to have at least 5 cards included in the game, most of them specific cards and the rest from a very narrow category. For the questions in this thread, you need Donate, Way of the Mouse, Vassal/Black Market, one of the "play this" Reactions, the card in question (like Fortune), and often one more general card. Even for the question of Coins/Action on other players' turns you need at least Way of the Mouse, Black Market (or Storyteller+Vassal), Diadem, and one of the "play this" Reactions.

GendoIkari

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2020, 02:34:33 pm »
0

Until/unless in-between things are errata'd away; can we get a ruling about whether you lose your leftover actions and coins at the end of turn, or at the start of turn? In other words, if you play Storyteller during a Donate; does it count the coins you had leftover at the end of the turn?
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Donald X.

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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2020, 03:10:27 am »
+5

Until/unless in-between things are errata'd away; can we get a ruling about whether you lose your leftover actions and coins at the end of turn, or at the start of turn? In other words, if you play Storyteller during a Donate; does it count the coins you had leftover at the end of the turn?
I just, I just feel like I need to make you answer some questions too. Why, GendoIkari? Are you writing your own Dominion program?

No-one needs to know what happens if Storyteller is played during a Donate.
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Re: Mountain Pass and gaining Province during Donate
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2020, 08:10:40 pm »
+4

Until/unless in-between things are errata'd away; can we get a ruling about whether you lose your leftover actions and coins at the end of turn, or at the start of turn? In other words, if you play Storyteller during a Donate; does it count the coins you had leftover at the end of the turn?
I just, I just feel like I need to make you answer some questions too. Why, GendoIkari? Are you writing your own Dominion program?

No-one needs to know what happens if Storyteller is played during a Donate.

Only speaking for myself, but I enjoy playing with crazy rule-bending kingdoms.
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