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[ashersky]

Raptor - Why did you not use your shot on the claimed cop Night 1?

Just seemed more valuable to hold on to at the time. I didn't know what else was out there, I had the mindset that with the UB it would hold value end game.

I fail to see what would be more valuable than protecting a claimed cop. Even in this answer, where you had the chance to say you didn't believe the cop claim, which was probably your best answer, you didn't. The only reason to not protect a cop is if you don't believe the cop is telling the truth or if you know there's another protective role that is going to target them.  "I didn't know what else was out there" even implies you believed shraeye was a cop and just thought there might be a better target later. You know who believed shraeye's claim and wouldn't protect them? Scum.

I think this post is very indicative of Dylan not having a town power role in this game.

If you think I'm wrong in my analysis, it would be very indicative of I don't know how to play a power role in general.  Feels like every time I have a power role I end up in a 1v1 or catching shade because of how I claim or how I play it, so I guess I just have no idea what I'm doing and should just pray I draw VT every game.  Go ahead and lynch me first, I don't care and it would at least get you off the whole MiX and I are partners junk.  Maybe MiX is partners with raptor, but it feels like no matter what I say, you're set on it being me, which is ridiculous given how literally everything raptor has done has been anti-town and there are other people who had actively pushed us away from lynching scum!Joseph both on D1 and D2 prior to my claim.

I didn't mean to make it sound like you don't know how to play.

Your post appears to indicate that you don't have a PR this game specifically.  In this game, town PRs have a literally back-up (almost always).  The imperative to protect any/all town roles is not as strong because of this, and the fact that any one PR doesn't know how many others are in the game also affects decisions.  In retrospect, not protecting shraeye was the 100% right decision, although no doctor could have known it at the time.  Instead, any PR could think it over, decide scum doesn't risk the WIFOM protection, and protects elsewhere or saves their shot.  There was also follow-the-cop discussion specifically during D1 (I think I read that when I first caught up), so that would also go into the decision-making of everyone.

As for you saying that I'm set on it being you -- I'm clearly building my case and pushing for another player.  I do think your claim fits better into what I caught about MiX, so yes, I favor you over raptor at this point.  But when we get to the DvR portion of this game, I'll put more thought into it, including how MiX's scum flip interacts with both of you.

[Dylan32]

1) As has by now been pointed out by others, MiX clearly lied about the possibilities regarding the setup.

The only lie I see, apart from not telling people my read on Dylan, is not saying that there could be 6T rolls. Where were the "other lies" pointed out? I can't see them.

Okay, I will break it down for you, although again, this has been pointed out by others.  Here is your post:

I'll be the dumb one and ask for the logic of mass claiming but will already say I am all for it cause it is fun. But have a feeling a bunch of people will be up in arms without the math or talking about it forever. Sooo.... VT

It's very simple. A goon flip means we're in 5 or 6 Ts scenario, which means we have a maximum of 1 PR. Since we have a 1-shot cop claim, that's all the PRs possible, which means any more non-UB claims are a counterclaim, and we definitely want those. That's all. We hide the UB because we only need them to claim a day before LyLo, where scum can't claim it safely. When UB claims and etc is complicated, but the massclaim of non-UB isn't.

I quoted this and voted you for the scumslip and lie.  A few points to make:

#1 - You have tried to cover up your lie by saying you omitted the 6T roll.  It's even in the post I am replying to now.  That is yet another misdirect, as we can see CLEARLY that you said "6 Ts" in your post.  So, where did you omit the 6T roll?  That's a compound lie -- a lie building on a lie to cover up the first lie.  Lies abound!

#2 - The original misdirect/lie in your quote, which led to my clear read on you, was when you said "we have a maximum of 1 PR."  You want this to be true because the game environment has been molded to appear that way.  (I will note, I believe this to be the true game state at this time, which is days later than this post.)  However, your statement is blatantly untrue, and I believe it to be blatantly untrue on purpose.

#2a - Why is MiX's line untrue?  MiX predicates his statement on the goon flip.  A goon flip means 5T or 6T, as he says.  So he uses a truth to lull the audience, then slides in a seemingly true statement that is actually a lie, reinforced by immediately hitting the next line to support it ("since we have a 1-shot cop claim").  Note the use and placement of the word "since" in this series.  Meaning-wise, it is used as a "because" for the info that follows (there are no other PRs possible BECAUSE we have a 1-shot cop claim), but its positioning means that readers may also meld it with the previous line -- the lie.  That is, "we have a maximum of 1 PR BECAUSE we have a 1-shot cop claim," which just feels like evidence, even though it isn't.  This is a common language trick used in poetry and other writing (rap lyrics do it all the time). 

#3 - As I've explained, scum planned a fakeclaim.  Scum knows the claim is fake.  The fake claim is for one PR, even though that is not the only possibility in the setup.  In this case, scum ignored all possibilities to push the only possibilities that work with their lie.  That is the scumslip.

Ok, I've read the setup several times, and I guess I'm just not seeing what possibility would have more than max 1 PR with a goon flip, which seems to be the key to you calling MiX's statement a lie. What could have been true that would mean MiX was lying about the whole max 1 PR thing?

ppe 1

[WestCoastDidds]

Like I said, fan of argumentation. Ash is doing good work. It all hinges on MiX being super devious. Is MiX super devious? I think I’m more yes than no on that possibility.

Vote: MiX

PPE: 3?

[ashersky]

When I said "Dylan is town" (which I believe was in my first post) I think I was trying to omit the fact that he can be scum fakeclaiming and it's 6Ts. I'll give that post a proper response.

This is not what I was talking about, at all.  I literally just laid it all out for you.  And this is what you decide to do to respond? 

"Hey MiX, I think you are lying scum because of A."
"Hey, thanks for whatever you said, sorry B was confusing I think, let me go explain that."

Caught. Scum.

[ashersky]

A goon flip means we're in 5 or 6 Ts scenario, which means we have a maximum of 1 PR.

Can you explain this a little more? I know it has to do with the setup, but I'm not sure I completely get how that works.

Okay let's see if I can explain this, maybe I'm wrong lol who knows.

In the setup, the mod rolls 6 letters. So, in theory, we can have any combination of any letters. They can be seperated into T rolls and non-T rolls. T rolls affect scum directly, and essencially means they don't add a PR. Non-T rolls add PRs according to the table (I'm not linking the setup here, but if you want the link just say so). Since a Goon flipped, it means we are in the TTTTTT (6) or TTTTT (5), with a sixth letter. This means we have at most one letter. Now you can look at all the possible letters we can have, and you find out that, other than mason (that replaces UB with mason), we can only have 1 additional PR. Since Dylan claimed 1-shot cop, he's the only claimed PR, which means any other PRs (including the masons) would be counterclaiming him, and thus should claim immediately.

Please ask any questions you may have, this explanation is far from perfect.

So here's the link that explains it:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10639.msg353797#msg353797

I'd read it before, but was confused. But I *think* I understand hwo you'r explaining it. You're saying that if of the six letters there had been 0-4 T's then there would not have been a generic mafia goon. Meaning it has to have been at least 5 or 6 T, meaning only one other letter could be none T, and in all those cases, there is only 1 PR.

Is that it?

Now I'll reread to see what you may have missed or misdirected.

5-6 Ts generates 2 mafia goons. And I have verified with mod that Godfather cannot be selected for "an additional PR". So If there was an additional PR, it could not be GF. Because everything between 0-4 Ts give 2 PRs to skum, and we have a Goon flip, we have a maximum of 1 pr. Or two I guess, if there are two masons... assuming I understand how that works correctly.

[Dylan32]

When I said "Dylan is town" (which I believe was in my first post) I think I was trying to omit the fact that he can be scum fakeclaiming and it's 6Ts. I'll give that post a proper response.

This is not what I was talking about, at all.  I literally just laid it all out for you.  And this is what you decide to do to respond? 

"Hey MiX, I think you are lying scum because of A."
"Hey, thanks for whatever you said, sorry B was confusing I think, let me go explain that."

Caught. Scum.

I guess I'm just confused about it. I'll read it again, but I promise I'm asking questions in good faith trying to understand what you're saying.

ppe 1

[ashersky]

Ok, I've read the setup several times, and I guess I'm just not seeing what possibility would have more than max 1 PR with a goon flip, which seems to be the key to you calling MiX's statement a lie. What could have been true that would mean MiX was lying about the whole max 1 PR thing?

ppe 1

I just posted DatSwan's catch from earlier in the day.

Also, reinforcing MiX's lie doesn't help your case.

[ashersky]

When I said "Dylan is town" (which I believe was in my first post) I think I was trying to omit the fact that he can be scum fakeclaiming and it's 6Ts. I'll give that post a proper response.

This is not what I was talking about, at all.  I literally just laid it all out for you.  And this is what you decide to do to respond? 

"Hey MiX, I think you are lying scum because of A."
"Hey, thanks for whatever you said, sorry B was confusing I think, let me go explain that."

Caught. Scum.

I guess I'm just confused about it. I'll read it again, but I promise I'm asking questions in good faith trying to understand what you're saying.

ppe 1

This was a reply to MiX, not you.  Sorry if there was confusion there.  I am saying MiX decided to discuss a completely different thing to the thing I pointed out was more scummy behavior.

[Dylan32]

Ok, I've read the setup several times, and I guess I'm just not seeing what possibility would have more than max 1 PR with a goon flip, which seems to be the key to you calling MiX's statement a lie. What could have been true that would mean MiX was lying about the whole max 1 PR thing?

ppe 1

I just posted DatSwan's catch from earlier in the day.

Also, reinforcing MiX's lie doesn't help your case.

But I don't think there could be 2 masons with a goon flip can there? A single M roll results in the UB converting, but "--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion." So does that mean they are converted to a mason and a mason is added and there's no UB?  That isn't how I have been reading it the last few days, which I think is why I was confused.

ppe 1

[Dylan32]

Well, I guess the UB being a mason on his own without a partner is nonsensical, so why that's how I was interpreting it is beyond me.

[MiX]

1) As has by now been pointed out by others, MiX clearly lied about the possibilities regarding the setup.

The only lie I see, apart from not telling people my read on Dylan, is not saying that there could be 6T rolls. Where were the "other lies" pointed out? I can't see them.

Okay, I will break it down for you, although again, this has been pointed out by others.  Here is your post:

I'll be the dumb one and ask for the logic of mass claiming but will already say I am all for it cause it is fun. But have a feeling a bunch of people will be up in arms without the math or talking about it forever. Sooo.... VT

It's very simple. A goon flip means we're in 5 or 6 Ts scenario, which means we have a maximum of 1 PR. Since we have a 1-shot cop claim, that's all the PRs possible, which means any more non-UB claims are a counterclaim, and we definitely want those. That's all. We hide the UB because we only need them to claim a day before LyLo, where scum can't claim it safely. When UB claims and etc is complicated, but the massclaim of non-UB isn't.

I quoted this and voted you for the scumslip and lie.  A few points to make:

#1 - You have tried to cover up your lie by saying you omitted the 6T roll.  It's even in the post I am replying to now.  That is yet another misdirect, as we can see CLEARLY that you said "6 Ts" in your post.  So, where did you omit the 6T roll?  That's a compound lie -- a lie building on a lie to cover up the first lie.  Lies abound!

#2 - The original misdirect/lie in your quote, which led to my clear read on you, was when you said "we have a maximum of 1 PR."  You want this to be true because the game environment has been molded to appear that way.  (I will note, I believe this to be the true game state at this time, which is days later than this post.)  However, your statement is blatantly untrue, and I believe it to be blatantly untrue on purpose.

#2a - Why is MiX's line untrue?  MiX predicates his statement on the goon flip.  A goon flip means 5T or 6T, as he says.  So he uses a truth to lull the audience, then slides in a seemingly true statement that is actually a lie, reinforced by immediately hitting the next line to support it ("since we have a 1-shot cop claim").  Note the use and placement of the word "since" in this series.  Meaning-wise, it is used as a "because" for the info that follows (there are no other PRs possible BECAUSE we have a 1-shot cop claim), but its positioning means that readers may also meld it with the previous line -- the lie.  That is, "we have a maximum of 1 PR BECAUSE we have a 1-shot cop claim," which just feels like evidence, even though it isn't.  This is a common language trick used in poetry and other writing (rap lyrics do it all the time). 

#3 - As I've explained, scum planned a fakeclaim.  Scum knows the claim is fake.  The fake claim is for one PR, even though that is not the only possibility in the setup.  In this case, scum ignored all possibilities to push the only possibilities that work with their lie.  That is the scumslip.

#1 - Why would I cover up a lie with a lie. On purpose. While knowing what I'm doing. You can say you caught me with my pants down, but you can't say you caught anything scummy, you just deconstructed my memory of events in a way for me to contradict myself. For which I say, well done, I didn't think that was possible.

#2 - But we DO "have a maximum of 1 PR". I wasn't thinking about the masons, because that's a total for 1 PR, as the UB is replaced by a mason. Not to mention a mason claim solves this day so there's no need to mention it. Is there any other scenario where we don't have a maximum of 1 PR, prior to the massclaim?

#2a - You never explained why that line is untrue. You just explained how I wrote the paragraph. Which, uh, yeah I guess I did say "since" after a conclusion. It was not my intent to link those two together backwards, only forwards. Again, why is it not true?

#3 - If scum scumslipped, then yes, it was by knowing that there was a fakeclaim before raptor claimed. I did no such thing? I assumed the only thing that could happen after a massclaim, which is either nothing happens, or something happens. Acknowledging the one thing that can happen due to the massclaim isn't scummy.

PPE I'm getting tired of this. I still don't know how I lied about the setup, and I still don't know why that makes me scum. Just because I'm the only one that could've scumslipped about this (let's assume that for a bit since I didn't see any other scumslip) doesn't mean I did.

Also, Didds...really. Really. I thought better of you...

[MiX]

Ok, I've read the setup several times, and I guess I'm just not seeing what possibility would have more than max 1 PR with a goon flip, which seems to be the key to you calling MiX's statement a lie. What could have been true that would mean MiX was lying about the whole max 1 PR thing?

ppe 1

I just posted DatSwan's catch from earlier in the day.

Also, reinforcing MiX's lie doesn't help your case.

But I don't think there could be 2 masons with a goon flip can there? A single M roll results in the UB converting, but "--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion." So does that mean they are converted to a mason and a mason is added and there's no UB?  That isn't how I have been reading it the last few days, which I think is why I was confused.

ppe 1

No, the M roll adds a mason, AND converts UB into mason, so there's 2 masons.

[Dylan32]

Ok, I've read the setup several times, and I guess I'm just not seeing what possibility would have more than max 1 PR with a goon flip, which seems to be the key to you calling MiX's statement a lie. What could have been true that would mean MiX was lying about the whole max 1 PR thing?

ppe 1

I just posted DatSwan's catch from earlier in the day.

Also, reinforcing MiX's lie doesn't help your case.

But I don't think there could be 2 masons with a goon flip can there? A single M roll results in the UB converting, but "--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion." So does that mean they are converted to a mason and a mason is added and there's no UB?  That isn't how I have been reading it the last few days, which I think is why I was confused.

ppe 1

No, the M roll adds a mason, AND converts UB into mason, so there's 2 masons.

Yeah got there eventually...

[MiX]

When I said "Dylan is town" (which I believe was in my first post) I think I was trying to omit the fact that he can be scum fakeclaiming and it's 6Ts. I'll give that post a proper response.

This is not what I was talking about, at all.  I literally just laid it all out for you.  And this is what you decide to do to respond? 

"Hey MiX, I think you are lying scum because of A."
"Hey, thanks for whatever you said, sorry B was confusing I think, let me go explain that."

Caught. Scum.

I was saying why I said that I omitted the 6T roll: in my mind I had done that, and I told you where.

[MiX]

When I said "Dylan is town" (which I believe was in my first post) I think I was trying to omit the fact that he can be scum fakeclaiming and it's 6Ts. I'll give that post a proper response.

This is not what I was talking about, at all.  I literally just laid it all out for you.  And this is what you decide to do to respond? 

"Hey MiX, I think you are lying scum because of A."
"Hey, thanks for whatever you said, sorry B was confusing I think, let me go explain that."

Caught. Scum.

I guess I'm just confused about it. I'll read it again, but I promise I'm asking questions in good faith trying to understand what you're saying.

ppe 1

This was a reply to MiX, not you.  Sorry if there was confusion there.  I am saying MiX decided to discuss a completely different thing to the thing I pointed out was more scummy behavior.

What isn't scummy behavior for me. No seriously, tell me. You wouldn't be able to, I'm sure. This is how I am: eternally scummy, even when I try to say the truth over and over.

I stand by everything I said, including that I omitted the 6T roll, including every admission of whatever ash accused me of that I said in the past. If it makes me scum, then you're wrong, that's all I need, and that's all town needs.

I don't have the mental fortitude to withstand an ash assault head-on. Thankfully there's nothing else to do since I'm already voting for scum.

[Dylan32]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

[MiX]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

You have to admit that it's possible for town to think like raptor, right? So it doesn't make him scum.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

Sorry I don't play to your 'standards'. I explained why I thought it was the right reason, your scum!opinion doesn't really matter to me tbh.

[Xxraptorslayer96]

I like the case on Mix, I don't mind voting there obvi. but would still rather lynch Dylan because I know that he is 100% lying.

[MiX]

I like the case on Mix, I don't mind voting there obvi. but would still rather lynch Dylan because I know that he is 100% lying.

Uhuh. Explain why you like the case on me. Details, please. Maybe then you're caught after I flip.

[Dylan32]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

You have to admit that it's possible for town to think like raptor, right? So it doesn't make him scum.

Honestly, in the scenario we had in D1, I just don't see town not protecting the cop unless you didn't believe the claim. Raptor has given no indication that he didn't believe it, even though he's had several chances, and in fact his comments suggest he did believe it, and so no, I don't believe town would have held the shot there at all. In different situations and other games, sure, but here, I wouldn't buy it even if I wasn't the one who was 1v1 with him.

[Dylan32]

Also, you have to consider that in this game, scum absolutely believed the claim enough to warrant shooting them N1. Combine that with the evidence that Raptor believed the claim, and it makes him marginally more likely to be scum, even ignoring the PR claiming stuff. Of course town could have believed the claim too, so I don't pretend that's conclusive, but it's another detail that lines up well with scum!raptor.

[MiX]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

You have to admit that it's possible for town to think like raptor, right? So it doesn't make him scum.

Honestly, in the scenario we had in D1, I just don't see town not protecting the cop unless you didn't believe the claim. Raptor has given no indication that he didn't believe it, even though he's had several chances, and in fact his comments suggest he did believe it, and so no, I don't believe town would have held the shot there at all. In different situations and other games, sure, but here, I wouldn't buy it even if I wasn't the one who was 1v1 with him.

Hmm, people can do strange things...I wouldn't had doctored shraeye, for example. You have to accept that others don't follow the same logic as you, and it doesn't inherently make them scummy. Of course this is a bad example, since you know he's scum, but...it can happen.

Look at me and ash. He's hellbent that I wouldn't do what I did as town. Yet I did. He would never do what I did as town, in his mind what happened is impossible for town to do, yet I did it. And I've played a bunch of games with ash and he's modded some more, he knows me. What you believe people will do in certain situations is not what they will 100% do in those situations.

Also, you have to consider that in this game, scum absolutely believed the claim enough to warrant shooting them N1. Combine that with the evidence that Raptor believed the claim, and it makes him marginally more likely to be scum, even ignoring the PR claiming stuff. Of course town could have believed the claim too, so I don't pretend that's conclusive, but it's another detail that lines up well with scum!raptor.

Weak. There's better arguments for his scummyness. Whoever didn't believe shraeye is scum, because scum knows there couldn't be any full Cop, is an argument that I could make as well and it would be just as bad. Also scum would say they didn't fully believe shraeye because of what you just said, so WIFOM.

Actually, what did YOU think of shraeye throughout this game?

[Swowl]

I like the case on Mix, I don't mind voting there obvi. but would still rather lynch Dylan because I know that he is 100% lying.

lol k

Vote: Raptor


you're up slugger

[Xxraptorslayer96]

Also, to Ash's questioning my reply to raptor's claimed motivations, the fact that the UB might convert to a mason is even more reason not to hold onto the shot. Sure there probably is a UB most of the time, but I just think you're better off using it.  Until people claim, the odds are that there's probably a better PR out there for the UB to pick up than your 1-shot power, so using it and claiming it early to reduce the odds scum NKs you would boost the odds the UB picks up a better PR than yours, so I don't think raptor's idea of saving it for the UB is good even if it were possible that he was town.

ppe 2

You have to admit that it's possible for town to think like raptor, right? So it doesn't make him scum.

Honestly, in the scenario we had in D1, I just don't see town not protecting the cop unless you didn't believe the claim. Raptor has given no indication that he didn't believe it, even though he's had several chances, and in fact his comments suggest he did believe it, and so no, I don't believe town would have held the shot there at all. In different situations and other games, sure, but here, I wouldn't buy it even if I wasn't the one who was 1v1 with him.

I was honestly flustered with myself for missing the deadline, and I had already decided earlier in the day that my shot was better off to hold on to for end game, I gave it a brief thought then dismissed it. again, I don't expect you to agree with me.