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Author Topic: Does Lantern override Enchantress?  (Read 24432 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2020, 05:25:06 pm »
+1

Right, this is the big difference that I've been trying to point out. Lantern does not contain an instruction to follow, Ways do.

It sounds like you think Lantern still causes shapeshifting, telling you to replace numbers in the card text. Lantern does contain instructions to follow. It is to reveal 3 instead of 2 cards, etc. I can't believe this part is controversial.

It doesn't cause shapeshifting in terms of what text Border Guard is considered to actually have, like if there were a weird Event that said "trash any card you have in play that has a '3' in its text". But I do think it causes shapeshifting in that it modifies how you play Border Guard.  When you have Lantern and you play Border Guard, it is Border Guard's instructions, not Lantern's instructions, that make you reveal cards, etc.

I mean, that seems to just come directly from what Donald said in this thread: "Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 05:29:16 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2020, 06:13:48 pm »
0

Right, this is the big difference that I've been trying to point out. Lantern does not contain an instruction to follow, Ways do.

It sounds like you think Lantern still causes shapeshifting, telling you to replace numbers in the card text. Lantern does contain instructions to follow. It is to reveal 3 instead of 2 cards, etc. I can't believe this part is controversial.

It doesn't cause shapeshifting in terms of what text Border Guard is considered to actually have, like if there were a weird Event that said "trash any card you have in play that has a '3' in its text". But I do think it causes shapeshifting in that it modifies how you play Border Guard.  When you have Lantern and you play Border Guard, it is Border Guard's instructions, not Lantern's instructions, that make you reveal cards, etc.

I mean, that seems to just come directly from what Donald said in this thread: "Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard."

Looks like we cross-posted as I added something to my last post.

You're kind of missing what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how to interpret Lantern independently of what Donald said in that post. I'm assuming that what he said may or may not be accurate. In other words, I'm not trying to force an interpretation that would fit what he said then, I'm trying to arrive at a logical interpretation based on everything else we know. Like I said before, if what he said there stands, it might mean that we have to interpret Lantern as triggering several times during Border Guard; each time replacing an effect right before resolving it. But it still means Lantern is replacing parts of the instructions on Border Guard as you are resolving it. Anything else would be shapeshifting. Your half-shapeshifting idea makes no sense. Lantern alters how you play Border Guard as you play it, it doesn't cause Border Guard to have any other instructions temporarily (this would be shapeshifting). Do you think it's Ironworks' instructions you're following when you reveal a Trader?

Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2020, 06:33:39 pm »
0

Actually it's not really that important to my point if you believe Lantern causes some kind of crazy shapeshifting. The point, again, is this:

Both Chameleon and Lantern replace the instructions, either wholly or in part, either when you would start resolving the instructions or when you would resolve each instruction.

If you believe Lantern works with insta-shapeshifting, there is no reason why you wouldn't think Chameleon does to. There is nothing on the card or in the rules that suggest that it doesn't, any more than for Lantern. The only indication that it doesn't, is the rule that Ways override Enchantress. That rule does make sense for Ways that obviously replace the whole play ability, but there is no way to know if it applies to Chameleon without a ruling on how Chameleon is supposed to work. Now, the fact that Chameleon is not mentioned as an exception to the Enchantress override, given that that was not a mistake, makes us conclude that Chameleon does also replace the whole play ability, but that would be the only reason. (It's not Chameleon's ability in itself that makes us conclude this.) And if that's the case, Lantern should work the same way.

GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2020, 07:08:28 pm »
0

Both Chameleon and Lantern replace the instructions, either wholly or in part, either when you would start resolving the instructions or when you would resolve each instruction.

The difference I see is that Lantern just replaces the instructions. While Chameleon first does its own thing, and then replaces the instructions as part of doing that thing. Its own thing being the “follow this card’s instructions” bit. Lantern doesn’t have “follow Border Guard’s instructions”; and thats why I think that they have different timings. Lantern never tells you to follow Border Guard’s instructions; so its text cannot trigger when you would otherwise follow Border Guard’s instructions. The only way you know to follow Border Guard’s instructions is that the normal playing of Border Guard tells you to.

But with Chameleon; you don’t need the normal card’s instructions to begin before Chameleon does its thing. Chameleon tells you all of the instructions you need; some of which involve the instructions on the action being played.

So Chameleon can trigger when you would normally follow a card’s instructions; but Lantern cannot.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2020, 07:11:17 pm »
0

To try and be shorter:

You can get away with only following Chameleon’s instructions and pretending there are no normal Dominion rules that say when you play a card you do what it says.

You can’t with Lantern. Lantern only works because of the normal rule that when you play a card, you do what it says.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2020, 07:46:40 pm »
+1

I feel like I already addressed everything you're saying but you're not addressing what I'm saying about Chameleon. What I'm saying is that Chameleon overrides Enchantress (if it does) because it's not mentioned as an exception in the rulebook, and that's the only reason. The card itself doesn't tell us that.

Let's say Chameleon was not a Way but another kind of landscape card, "Magic Trick", that said: "Action cards you play may give you +Cards instead of +$ and vice versa". That's a little fuzzy, but the rulebook would explain that you make the choice for every Action card you play. This is the same as how Chameleon works, except we don't know if Magic Trick can override Enchantress. Donald would have to rule on it. If yes, then we would expect Lantern to also override Enchantress. (If no, then not.) And if Magic Trick could override Enchantress, it would work exactly like Chameleon.

But you are saying that Magic Trick, which would work exactly like Chameleon, is fundamentally different from Chameleon.

Sure, we could look at the wordings and try to parse the differences as some kind of difference in timing or "shapeshifting", etc. But that parsing would actually only matter for this very question: "Does it override Enchantress?" But the problem with that way of arguing is that neither Magic Trick, Lantern or Chameleon tells us the answer. We can only know based on a ruling (for Chameleon the ruling would be that it's not mentioned as an exception in the rulebook). So without any of those rulings, we would have nothing. But we would assume that logically, Chameleon would work the same as Magic Trick. This is what I'm trying to say.

Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2020, 07:57:12 pm »
0

To try and be shorter:

You can get away with only following Chameleon’s instructions and pretending there are no normal Dominion rules that say when you play a card you do what it says.

You can’t with Lantern. Lantern only works because of the normal rule that when you play a card, you do what it says.

Lantern tells you to replace, wholly or in part, Border Guard's instructions. It's telling you to do something instead of (some of) Border Guard's instructions. That is the same that Chameleon is saying. Chameleon has to say "follow the instructions" because the rules for Ways means that it has an implicit "do this instead of following the instructions". So that phrase just cancels that implicit instruction. I don't see why you're so hung up on the details of the wordings when their effect is exactly the same.

mxdata

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2020, 08:18:07 pm »
+2

This is ultimately kind of a futile argument, since Donald X has already ruled on it.  So, it really just boils down to whether you want to interpret his ruling as logically consistent with the text on the cards and stated rules (mine and GendoIkari's view) or whether you want to interpret his ruling as an exception to the rules (Jeebus' view).  Either way, Lantern does not override Enchantress while Ways (including Chameleon) do

And, ultimately, there's also the issue of precedent - Renaissance has been out for a while and we've all up till now had no problem with the idea that Lantern doesn't override Enchantress.  It's only the question of whether it's the same kind of thing as Ways or whether they're two different things.  If we were to adopt Jeebus' view that Chameleon and Lantern should work the same way, then we'd have to either change how we've been playing Lantern up till now, or we'd have to make Chameleon an exception to all the other Ways which do override Enchantress, and neither seems really satisfactory to me

Maybe if Border Guard and Ways had been released in the same set, or if Border Guard had been in a later set than Ways, it might've been done differently (because I agree, there is an ambiguity in that Lantern could be interpreted either as a replacement like Ways, or as just a modification), and they'd work the same way, but we can only deal with the game as it actually exists, not a hypothetical alternate version
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2020, 08:38:00 pm »
+2

Lantern tells you to replace, wholly or in part, Border Guard's instructions. It's telling you to do something instead of (some of) Border Guard's instructions. That is the same that Chameleon is saying. Chameleon has to say "follow the instructions" because the rules for Ways means that it has an implicit "do this instead of following the instructions". So that phrase just cancels that implicit instruction.

I think this is the key disagreement maybe... I don't agree that that's the same thing that Chameleon is saying. Chameleon is saying more than to replace some of Border Guard's instructions (if Border Guard is the card you're playing that you used Chameleon on). Lantern only says to replace some of Border Guard's instructions, while Chameleon says more than that. It says to follow the instructions, and I think that makes all the difference here, in terms of the timing.

I don't see how Lantern can have the same timing of "when you would otherwise follow the card's instructions", because if it did, there's no wording telling you to ever read and follow anything Border Guard says. You need to still have a rule or effect telling you to follow the instructions on Border Guard. Under normal circumstances, it's the rulebook that causes this; normal game rules tell you that when you play a card, you follow its instructions. With Chameleon; that entire rule is replaced; now instead of following that card's instructions, you're following Border Guard's instructions. But it's impossible to follow only Lantern's instructions, as it never tells you do anything that Border Guard says to do. The normal act of following Border Guard's instructions, as it comes from the rulebook, must still be the thing causing you to do things.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2020, 09:56:09 pm »
+1

Right, this is the big difference that I've been trying to point out. Lantern does not contain an instruction to follow, Ways do.

It sounds like you think Lantern still causes shapeshifting, telling you to replace numbers in the card text. Lantern does contain instructions to follow. It is to reveal 3 instead of 2 cards, etc. I can't believe this part is controversial.

I have been saying this before, look:
But Lantern does actually tell you to do something instead of what you would normally do. Lantern doesn't shapeshift Border Guard anymore. So there are alternate instructions. I don't know how you can deny that. "Simply replaceing the 2 with a 3", etc, is also providing alternate instructions.
What's your response?

Chameleon/Enchantress replace the whole effect.

Lantern replaces the specific action of looking at the top cards.

The difference here is while Lantern doesn't shapeshift Border Guard anymore, it still only replaces part of the effect when you play Border Guard.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2020, 10:37:51 pm »
+3

Chameleon/Enchantress replace the whole effect.

Lantern replaces the specific action of looking at the top cards.

The difference here is while Lantern doesn't shapeshift Border Guard anymore, it still only replaces part of the effect when you play Border Guard.

I just came up with what might be a better way to explain this:

You're reading lantern as "Instead of following Border Guard's instructions, follow them, revealing 3 cards instead of two."

We're reading Lantern as "When you would reveal 2 cards by following the instructions of Border Guard, reveal 3 instead."
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2020, 10:48:22 pm »
0

I just came up with what might be a better way to explain this:

You're reading lantern as "Instead of following Border Guard's instructions, follow them, revealing 3 cards instead of two."

We're reading Lantern as "When you would reveal 2 cards by following the instructions of Border Guard, reveal 3 instead."

Yes, I was going to write more or less the same thing.

First of all, even with the latter interpretation, your are definitely not only following Border Guard's instructions, some of them are interrupted and replaced on the fly with Lantern's (unlike what you said before). Whether this should count as resolving Border Guard so that Enchantress overrides it, I don't know, but whatever the case, Chameleon should work the same way.

Second, even that interpretation is adding stuff that is not in the wording. It's no more or less valid than my interpretation from the actual card text. The reason my interpretation is more valid, is that it fits with all other such when-would effects that we have; it follows precedent. I explained this before. I also said this (and now we have established that Lantern does replace at least some of the instructions): "That leaves the question of the timing. The natural interpretation is that it does this just as you're about to do it, just like all other cards like this. To conclude that it triggers several times during your resolution of Border Guard seems very forced to me. It seems to be a rule invented just to avoid a certain interaction."

You are also assuming that Chameleon replaces the whole instruction, but I can't see that you have any basis for that. See my last post, which nobody has responded to. Why is Magic Trick fundamentally different from Chameleon? To me your whole basis for this is circular; it's based on the fact that Chameleon is a Way to conclude that therefore it works as a Way.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 11:07:36 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2020, 10:59:26 pm »
0

This is ultimately kind of a futile argument, since Donald X has already ruled on it.  So, it really just boils down to whether you want to interpret his ruling as logically consistent with the text on the cards and stated rules (mine and GendoIkari's view) or whether you want to interpret his ruling as an exception to the rules (Jeebus' view).  Either way, Lantern does not override Enchantress while Ways (including Chameleon) do

And, ultimately, there's also the issue of precedent - Renaissance has been out for a while and we've all up till now had no problem with the idea that Lantern doesn't override Enchantress.  It's only the question of whether it's the same kind of thing as Ways or whether they're two different things.  If we were to adopt Jeebus' view that Chameleon and Lantern should work the same way, then we'd have to either change how we've been playing Lantern up till now, or we'd have to make Chameleon an exception to all the other Ways which do override Enchantress, and neither seems really satisfactory to me

Maybe if Border Guard and Ways had been released in the same set, or if Border Guard had been in a later set than Ways, it might've been done differently (because I agree, there is an ambiguity in that Lantern could be interpreted either as a replacement like Ways, or as just a modification), and they'd work the same way, but we can only deal with the game as it actually exists, not a hypothetical alternate version

I mostly agree with you here.

He has never ruled on it before, so there is no precedent. He has actually ruled on several other corner-case things that it turns out are implemented wrong online (and some of them probably still are), so that's not a hindrance either.

In the past he has listened to logical arguments when it comes to card interpretations, so that remote possibility exists, but in this case I see it as almost non-existent.

He still hasn't responded to how Chameleon works with Enchantress. We can assume that there is no omission in the rulebook of course. If we also assume that what he said in this thread still stands, there is the question of how both those things can be true. The answer is probably something along the lines of what GendoIkari is saying. But of course, I still think this is a forced interpretation, not how the cards naturally read.

GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2020, 11:30:47 pm »
0

You are also assuming that Chameleon replaces the whole instruction, but I can't see that you have any basis for that. See my last post, which nobody has responded to. Why is Magic Trick fundamentally different from Chameleon? To me your whole basis for this is circular; it's based on the fact that Chameleon is a Way to conclude that therefore it works as a Way.

This is the part I'm most confused about. Why is it circular; we know for a fact how Ways work. Chameleon isn't special or different than any of the other 19 Ways when it comes to this. By the rules, by definition, using a Way replaces all normal instructions; not just a part of it.

I think that Magic Trick is fundamentally different from Chameleon, and not only because it's a Way. Also because Chameleon says "follow this card's instructions", which Magic Trick didn't say. A Magic Trick landscape that works exactly like Chameleon would have to be worded: "When playing action cards, you can choose instead of following their instructions to follow their instructions but get +Cards instead of +$ and vice versa".

This gives you the option of which instruction to follow... the rulebook instruction which says "do what's written on the card you played", or Magic Trick's instruction which says "do what's written on the card you played, but get +Cards instead of +$ and vice versa".

Imagine for a moment that we edit the actual rules to play a variant of Dominion. We take this rule from the rulebook:

Quote
Playing an Action card has three steps: announcing it; moving it to the "in play" area - the table space in front of you; and following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom.

And we edit it to say:

Quote
Playing an Action card has two steps: announcing it; and moving it to the "in play" area - the table space in front of you.

Under this version of Dominion, when you play a Smithy, nothing happens. When you play a Border Guard, nothing happens, whether you have Lantern or not. (But Horn still works like normal!) Even if you're playing with your version of Magic Trick, playing a Smithy doesn't do anything. Sure you can change those Smithy's instructions to tell you to get $ instead of cards; but that doesn't have any effect on anything; because you never follow Smithy's instructions.

But, under this version of Dominion, using a Way does cause something to happen. That's because Ways work completely independently of the rule "following the instructions on it, in order, top to bottom." In fact the rules for Ways basically causes that rule to not exist as long as you are choosing to use the Way instead. So Ways would function exactly the same under this variant of Dominion.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 11:33:51 pm by GendoIkari »
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silvern

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2020, 12:35:27 am »
+2

always feel amped-up when there's a NEW contentious discussion about the theoretical side of Dominion. Let's formalize this game, baby
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2020, 01:16:28 am »
0

I'm not convinced Ways would do anything under your alternative version of Dominion. It might depend on Donald's answer to my previous question: Do abilities like Ways and Enchantress replace each other, or does only the first one work and all subsequent ones fail? If Ingix is right that it's the latter one, Ways will definitely not work when you're not already doing the card's ability. Enchantress clearly wouldn't work either way, based on its wording, and I would actually think Ways work the same way as Enchantress, in which case it doesn't matter what the answer to that question is, Ways wouldn't work anyway.

Maybe circular wasn't right word, but I meant that the logic is backwards. I think I know a better way to explain it: To me the rulebook notes on Chameleon could perfectly well have said that Chameleon, unlike the other Ways, doesn't override Enchantress, since it's still following the card's instructions. I just can't believe that you would read that and think, "This rule is in conflict with the card text on Chameleon." I mean, Chameleon actually says to follow the instructions. It's a perfectly reasonable rule. In that reality, we would all agree that Chameleon works exactly like Lantern; neither would override Enchantress. I repeat, with the same exact card text on Chameleon. That's why I think you're basing this idea about Chameleon solely on the fact that it's apparently supposed to work as the other Ways do. You're putting the cart ahead of the mule or whatever.

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2020, 01:26:14 am »
+1

Now, as I was reviewing the wall of text that was typed below, you posted something else that finally showed me what you were trying to say the entire time: that Enchantress should still able to do its thing with Way of the Chameleon because it should be able to replace the "Follow this card's instructions" bit on Chameleon with "+1 Card, +1 Action," and if it can't, then Lantern should override enchantress as well. This seems much more reasonable of a viewpoint to me. With this in mind, the I think the debate shouldn't be, "Does Lantern override Enchantress?" but rather, "Should Way of the Chameleon be an exception to the rule in this case?"

I will leave this argument here for posterity's sake anyway:
I just came up with what might be a better way to explain this:

You're reading lantern as "Instead of following Border Guard's instructions, follow them, revealing 3 cards instead of two."

We're reading Lantern as "When you would reveal 2 cards by following the instructions of Border Guard, reveal 3 instead."

Yes, I was going to write more or less the same thing.

So, when I posted those earlier, I failed to realize that there was an entire 3rd page of discussion that I hadn't read. That's on me. That said, I'm going to do my best to go through your post point by point:

Quote
First of all, even with the latter interpretation, your are definitely not only following Border Guard's instructions, some of them are interrupted and replaced on the fly with Lantern's (unlike what you said before). Whether this should count as resolving Border Guard so that Enchantress overrides it, I don't know

I think the difference here is that Enchantress and Ways replace the entire card's instructions before they happen, while the latter interpretation of Lantern replaces one subset of the instructions as they happen. This is much like reacting to Workshop with Trader. Workshop is still resolving, but Trader is replacing the gain event.

Quote
but whatever the case, Chameleon should work the same way.

I disagree with you on this. Way of the Chameleon has to replace the entire card's effect due to being a Way. That is how Ways work; Chameleon is worded the way it is due to that constraint, and is why it has this weird interaction with Enchantress. Lantern has no such card-type-based limitations.

Quote
Second, even that interpretation is adding stuff that is not in the wording. It's no more or less valid than my interpretation from the actual card text.

I'll concede that.

Quote
The reason my interpretation is more valid,

Alright, now you're contradicting the above statement. This doesn't add anything to the discussion, I'm just trying to inject humor by being pedantic.

Quote
is that it fits with all other such when-would effects that we have; it follows precedent. I explained this before.

I'm not sure what precedent you are referring to here. You may or may not have already explained this; I'm not entirely sure. If you have, I lost it in all the other discussion/arguing that's happening around this.

Quote
I also said this (and now we have established that Lantern does replace at least some of the instructions):

I, at least, never intended to imply that Lantern did not replace any instructions. I do, however, believe that the replacement is much more limited in scope than Way of the Chameleon; see above.

Quote
"That leaves the question of the timing. The natural interpretation is that it does this just as you're about to do it, just like all other cards like this. To conclude that it triggers several times during your resolution of Border Guard seems very forced to me. It seems to be a rule invented just to avoid a certain interaction."

Ah, the crux of the miscommunication (as I see it, anyway). I see the "natural interpretation" of the timing for Lantern as being when would reveal rather than when would resolve. This goes back to the two different interpretations issue. There's nothing saying this somehow triggers multiple times; I'm not sure where you're getting that from, and I could just be reading too much into rhetorical hyperbole.

Quote
You are also assuming that Chameleon replaces the whole instruction, but I can't see that you have any basis for that.

The basis for this is the rules for how Ways function; see above.

Quote
See my last post, which nobody has responded to. Why is Magic Trick fundamentally different from Chameleon?

I don't see it as fundamentally different; rather, it is only different enough to matter in this specific edge case involving Enchantress. This question is like asking why first and second edition Cellar are fundamentally different; on a fundamental level, they aren't, but it matters for an edge case involving one particular card-shaped thing.

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To me your whole basis for this is circular; it's based on the fact that Chameleon is a Way to conclude that therefore it works as a Way.

Yes, much like saying a Nissan Leaf is a car; therefore, it works like cars do. The rulebook defines the behaviors of Ways; Chameleon is cleverly worded to work within those bounds, but at its core, it is still a Way.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 01:27:46 am by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2020, 01:30:40 pm »
0

Now, as I was reviewing the wall of text that was typed below, you posted something else that finally showed me what you were trying to say the entire time: that Enchantress should still able to do its thing with Way of the Chameleon because it should be able to replace the "Follow this card's instructions" bit on Chameleon with "+1 Card, +1 Action," and if it can't, then Lantern should override enchantress as well. This seems much more reasonable of a viewpoint to me. With this in mind, the I think the debate shouldn't be, "Does Lantern override Enchantress?" but rather, "Should Way of the Chameleon be an exception to the rule in this case?"

Yes, that's it. But those two questions are really just two approaches to asking the same thing. Figuring out if Lantern should override Enchantress is the same as figuring out of Chameleon should override Enchantress. Of course, asking this question presupposes that we don't just accept that Chameleon will override Enchantress because it's a Way. That's what I was saying with my "cart ahead of the mule" argument.

There are actually two lines to this discussion:
1) Does Lantern replace the total ability with a modified version of it, like Ways and Enchantress does?
2) If Lantern doesn't replace the total ability (just parts of the ability as we go along), why doesn't Chameleon work the same way?


Line 1 is about how Lantern works. Line 2 is about how Chameleon works.

1) Does Lantern replace the total ability with a modified version of it, like Ways and Enchantress does?

It seems to me you have been trying to argue that Lantern doesn't based on the card text. But like I said, there's nothing in the actual Lantern card text to say either way. My reason to say that it does is based on how it seems it's intended to work, not the particular words used. (Kind of like "when this is your first buy" is the same timing as "when you buy".) Enchantress, Ways and Lantern all change what a card does as you're playing it. To me it's natural to assume that they have the same timing. If they do have the same timing, Chameleon and Lantern should work the same in regards to Enchantress. If Chameleon works like the other Ways, Lantern should to.

2) If Lantern doesn't replace the total ability (just parts of the ability as we go along), why doesn't Chameleon work the same way?

The reason I say this would be triggering several times: First we get to revealing cards, and then Lantern changes that. Then we get to discarding cards and Lantern changes that. Then, arguably, we get to checking how many revealed cards were Actions and Lantern changes that. This is what I find a forced enterpretation.

But let's assume that it's true. Why doesn't Chameleon work the same way as Lantern? Like I said before, there's nothing in Chameleon's ability that makes us conclude that it changes the whole ability. It actually says to follow the instructions, with certain modifications. Isn't that the very opposite of telling you to cancel the instructions? We follow the instructions and then replace each +Cards with +$ and vice versa, as we go along. If that's how Lantern works, I would think Chameleon should work the same way. Yes, then it would be an exception to the other Ways.

***

Again, this is just logical reasoning (as I see it, of course). It's not based on Donald's previous statement in this thread, nor on the fact that Chameleon seems to not be an exception to how Ways work. I'm saying that I don't see the logic behind both of those being true.

GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2020, 02:34:11 pm »
+2

But let's assume that it's true. Why doesn't Chameleon work the same way as Lantern? Like I said before, there's nothing in Chameleon's ability that makes us conclude that it changes the whole ability. It actually says to follow the instructions, with certain modifications. Isn't that the very opposite of telling you to cancel the instructions?

Because “follow this card's instructions” is a brand new instruction you are being given. It’s not a statement saying that Chameleon doesn’t have its own instructions like other Ways; it IS the new instruction. You said before that were reading “follow this card's instructions” as cancelling out the normal way that Ways work, but I think that’s where you're wrong. Imagine a Way that said nothing at all other than “follow this card’s instructions”. That Way would still work like all other Ways, by giving you a brand new instruction follow instead of following the original instructions.

Yes, this brand new instruction involves replacing parts of the original instruction. But that’s the second step of resolving the Way.  The first step is to ignore everything written on the card because you are using a Way. The second step is to follow the steps on the Way. Chameleon isn’t special or different than other Ways.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2020, 02:40:24 pm »
+1

I see it like Band of Misfits (pre-errata).

The “play this as” is a literal instruction that you follow. It’s not a special wording that changes the way it gets played... originally it was the latter, but Donald changed that ruling a long time ago. So you play Band of Misfits like normal and follow its instructions. The first instructions tells you to play it again, but this time in a special way. Chameleon does the same. “Follow this card's instructions” is not a special wording that changes the normal fact that Chameleon has its own instructions. It’s simply the first instruction on the card.

It sounds like you are reading Chameleon in the way that Band of Misfits used to work, before the changed ruling.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 02:41:32 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2020, 03:17:33 pm »
+1

Lantern has to be a modification, not a replacement of the text, because it's not a complete instruction by itself.  If you were to interpret it as working like a Way, and replacing the original instructions, then the new instructions are "Reveal three cards and discard two".  Reveal from where?  From your hand?  From your deck?  And what do you do with the one you don't discard?  Do you topdeck it?  Put it into your hand?  You can only answer those questions by referencing the text of Border Guard.  So, unlike Ways, it can't be a brand-new instruction, you have to keep part of the original instructions.

Imagine if, instead, Lantern actually said "When you play a Border Guard: +1 Action Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the rest. If all three were Actions, take the Horn."  In that case, it would be logical to conclude that it worked the same as Ways and would override Enchantress.  It's completely new instructions, albeit, instructions that are similar to the original text.  Very much like Chameleon in fact
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2020, 04:12:31 pm »
0

I see it like Band of Misfits (pre-errata).

The “play this as” is a literal instruction that you follow. It’s not a special wording that changes the way it gets played... originally it was the latter, but Donald changed that ruling a long time ago. So you play Band of Misfits like normal and follow its instructions. The first instructions tells you to play it again, but this time in a special way. Chameleon does the same. “Follow this card's instructions” is not a special wording that changes the normal fact that Chameleon has its own instructions. It’s simply the first instruction on the card.

It sounds like you are reading Chameleon in the way that Band of Misfits used to work, before the changed ruling.

I am saying that it's completely open to interpretation. I have explained this in detail. It still sounds to me that you're basing your interpretation on the idea that it has to work a certain way because it's a Way, not on the idea of how it works. From the card text we could perfectly well conclude that it does what you're saying Lantern does. Like I said:

To me the rulebook notes on Chameleon could perfectly well have said that Chameleon, unlike the other Ways, doesn't override Enchantress, since it's still following the card's instructions. I just can't believe that you would read that and think, "This rule is in conflict with the card text on Chameleon." I mean, Chameleon actually says to follow the instructions. It's a perfectly reasonable rule.

Sure, maybe you're right that this would be like the original BOM ruling, but that means that you're viewing Lantern like that ruling too.

This debate about Chameleon is mostly only relevant if you still disagree about "Line 1" btw, which you didn't adress.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 04:19:26 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2020, 04:18:46 pm »
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Lantern has to be a modification, not a replacement of the text, because it's not a complete instruction by itself.  If you were to interpret it as working like a Way, and replacing the original instructions, then the new instructions are "Reveal three cards and discard two".  Reveal from where?  From your hand?  From your deck?  And what do you do with the one you don't discard?  Do you topdeck it?  Put it into your hand?  You can only answer those questions by referencing the text of Border Guard.  So, unlike Ways, it can't be a brand-new instruction, you have to keep part of the original instructions.

Imagine if, instead, Lantern actually said "When you play a Border Guard: +1 Action Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the rest. If all three were Actions, take the Horn."  In that case, it would be logical to conclude that it worked the same as Ways and would override Enchantress.  It's completely new instructions, albeit, instructions that are similar to the original text.  Very much like Chameleon in fact

I adressed all this already, and even said how it would work as a Way. See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20199.msg828030#msg828030
I've said many times that your interpretation is not based on the card text either. I said this: "Even that interpretation is adding stuff that is not in the wording. It's no more or less valid than my interpretation from the actual card text." Doom_Shark, at least, conceded that.

GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2020, 04:18:55 pm »
0

I see it like Band of Misfits (pre-errata).

The “play this as” is a literal instruction that you follow. It’s not a special wording that changes the way it gets played... originally it was the latter, but Donald changed that ruling a long time ago. So you play Band of Misfits like normal and follow its instructions. The first instructions tells you to play it again, but this time in a special way. Chameleon does the same. “Follow this card's instructions” is not a special wording that changes the normal fact that Chameleon has its own instructions. It’s simply the first instruction on the card.

It sounds like you are reading Chameleon in the way that Band of Misfits used to work, before the changed ruling.

I am saying that it's completely open to interpretation. I have explained this in detail. It still sounds to me that you're basing your interpretation on the idea that it has to work a certain way because it's a Way, not on the idea of how it works. From the card text we could perfectly well conclude that it does what you're saying Lantern does. Like I said:

To me the rulebook notes on Chameleon could perfectly well have said that Chameleon, unlike the other Ways, doesn't override Enchantress, since it's still following the card's instructions. I just can't believe that you would read that and think, "This rule is in conflict with the card text on Chameleon." I mean, Chameleon actually says to follow the instructions. It's a perfectly reasonable rule.

Sure, maybe you're right that this would be like the original BOM ruling, but that means that you're viewing Lantern like that ruling too.

This debate about Chameleon is mostly only relevant if you still disagree about "Line 1" btw, which you didn't adress.

I think it can be concluded outside of knowing the rules for Ways, simply by going off of the most literal reading of the card. Just like Band of Misfits, every word written on a card should be automatically interpreted as its own instruction. Even if we didn't know anything about Ways, we should always read "Follow this card's instructions..." exactly like we read "+2 cards". Simply because it is text printed on a card/landscape. We read it literally and do what it says. Your interpretation seems to require treating "Follow this card's instructions" as a special type of instruction, one that has different rules from all other written text in the game.

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Does Lantern replace the total ability with a modified version of it, like Ways and Enchantress does?

No, because of the reason that mxdata just posted; which is the same thing I've been trying to say... Lantern doesn't contain a full instruction. You can't only literally follow the text on Lantern and get anywhere. With Chameleon, just like with Smithy, Way of the Mouse, or any other Event or Card or Way, it is possible to simply literally read the text and do what it says. Lantern doesn't contain an instruction that you can follow.

Basically, Chameleon is worded like a list of things you can do. Lantern is not.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 04:20:16 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2020, 04:22:14 pm »
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Ill repeat it once more then: Lantern doesn't say what you says it says. You are interpreting and putting words there that aren't there. Just like me. There's no way to follow it "literally", just like Mxdata just said, and just like I said before.
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