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Author Topic: Does Lantern override Enchantress?  (Read 24427 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2020, 09:09:24 am »
+1

It's not different from how Way of the Chameleon would ideally work. However, Way of the Chameleon has the difference of being restricted by Way rules, which means it has to act as a full replacement somehow. The method it uses of getting around that restriction is by making sure the replacement has no effect (except in edge cases like Enchantress), but still takes place. Then it modifies. Lantern isn't restricted in the same way, so it doesn't have to act as a full replacement before modification.

Sorry if this is too similar to what I said previously.

I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X. To me Way of the Chameleon effectively overrides the general Way rules. You know, cards can override rules. Way means that you do the Way instead of the Action card, but when we follow that rule for Chameleon we get “do the Action card”. If Lantern has the same timing (which I don’t see any logical alternative for), then Lantern does the same thing: instead of X, do X modified.

Now this can mean two things. The question is if doing a modified version of the card counts as doing the card or not. If yes, it means Enchantress wins. If no, the played card wins. Both with Chameleon and Lantern.

GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2020, 09:49:27 am »
0

I think I see a difference between Ways and Lantern given the wording from Donald X as quoted here. With Lantern, you still follow Border Guard's instructions; it changes how those instructions work, but it doesn’t replace the instructions. With both Ways and Enchantress, the instructions aren’t just changed, they are replaced. You’re following brand new instructions. But Lantern isn’t new instructions, it’s the same instructions with a change put in.

I still don't see how that's different from the way Way of the Chameleon is supposed to work, but maybe you're saying that Way of the Chameleon doesn't override Enchantress either.

I will also note that Donald didn't say that Lantern makes you follow Border Guard's instructions; he said that Lantern only works when you are already following Border Guard's instructions. That's not the same thing.

Way of the Chameleon does have you ultimately follow the same instructions, but it's a new set of instructions telling you to do that. Smithy with Enchantress says "instead of draw 3 cards, get +1 card +1 action." Chameleon with Enchantress says "instead of draw 3 cards, do this: draw 3 cards, except instead of cards, get coins". When playing Smithy, you get to choose which of the 2 "insteads" to follow.

The key is that choosing to use Chameleon is not simply "instead of draw 3 cards, get 3 coins". It's the full "instead of draw 3 cards, do this: draw 3 cards, except instead of cards, get coins".

In other words, the choice to use a Way completely replaces all instructions from playing the card with something new. In the case of Chameleon, that something new happens to be dependent upon the original instructions. But it's still new instructions.

Or for another example, if you play Chapel and choose Way of the Chameleon; the instructions you are now following are the instructions on Way of the Chameleon. Yes those instructions happen to be the same list of things to do that Chapel had originally, but they're still new instructions. You're no longer simply "Trashing up to 4 cards from your hand", instead you're now "Follow the instructions on Chapel to trash up to 4 cards from your hand". Net result is the same, but you're doing it because Chameleon said to, not because Chapel said to.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 09:53:10 am by GendoIkari »
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Ingix

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2020, 10:11:13 am »
+2


I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X.

I think this is the blue dog principle. You replaced something with something else that happens to be "the same", but it really isn't the same any more. Way of the Chameleon (like any Way) replaces following the card's instructions with something else. The "something else" is in this case following modified instructions of the card, but we are still just using a Way, so anything that replaces "following a card's instructions" (Echantress) doesn't see them as the original instructions it can replace.

If you would gain a Silver with IronWorks and replace that with Trader, you still gain a Silver. But for Ironworks it's not the "gained card", so it doesn't give out +$1. Similiarly, once you use a Way on an Action card, Enchantress will not apply to what you do, even if for Way of the Chameleon what you do looks awfully like following a card's instructions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2020, 11:03:06 am »
0


I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X.

I think this is the blue dog principle. You replaced something with something else that happens to be "the same", but it really isn't the same any more. Way of the Chameleon (like any Way) replaces following the card's instructions with something else. The "something else" is in this case following modified instructions of the card, but we are still just using a Way, so anything that replaces "following a card's instructions" (Echantress) doesn't see them as the original instructions it can replace.

If you would gain a Silver with IronWorks and replace that with Trader, you still gain a Silver. But for Ironworks it's not the "gained card", so it doesn't give out +$1. Similiarly, once you use a Way on an Action card, Enchantress will not apply to what you do, even if for Way of the Chameleon what you do looks awfully like following a card's instructions.

Right, this is a much shorter version of what my post was saying.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2020, 11:10:35 am »
+1


I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X.

I think this is the blue dog principle. You replaced something with something else that happens to be "the same", but it really isn't the same any more. Way of the Chameleon (like any Way) replaces following the card's instructions with something else. The "something else" is in this case following modified instructions of the card, but we are still just using a Way, so anything that replaces "following a card's instructions" (Echantress) doesn't see them as the original instructions it can replace.

In the part you're quoting from me I was replying to Hhelibebcnofnena's post that said that Chameleon is different from Lantern because the rules for Way means it doesn't just modify, it first replaces then modifies, whereas Lantern only modifies. So that was me saying that Chameleon modifies just as much as Lantern.

But as I wrote in the end of that post, I definitely see how we could say that Chameleon replaces the ability with something else based on that ability. My point is that then the same applies to Lantern. Conversely, if we somehow say that this is not like "blue dog", that we are still resolving the Action card (just with modifications), then that should apply to Chameleon as well as Lantern. Ultimately, I agree with you and GendoIkari that the first alternative seems more correct.

So what I don't see, and which neither you or GendoIkari mentioned in your last posts, is how Lantern is different from Chameleon. Not as long as they both have the same timing, which I think everybody in this thread has assumed (except Dominionaer, but s/he was basing it on the old version of Lantern). Actually, you (Ingix) also mentioned that Lantern might have a different timing. To me that interpretation doesn't follow at all from how the card is supposed to work. Of course we don't have any FAQ for the new version. But we do know that it triggers every time you play Border Guard and changes what happens when you resolve it. This is exactly how Enchantress and Ways work, so to me it would require some kind of official "errata" to say that it works differently.

tl;dr:
How can Lantern be "the same instructions with a change put in", while Chameleon is "new instructions based on the old instructions" if they both happen at the same time? And what is the basis for saying that they don't happen at the same time?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 11:15:11 am by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2020, 11:19:00 am »
0


I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X.

I think this is the blue dog principle. You replaced something with something else that happens to be "the same", but it really isn't the same any more. Way of the Chameleon (like any Way) replaces following the card's instructions with something else. The "something else" is in this case following modified instructions of the card, but we are still just using a Way, so anything that replaces "following a card's instructions" (Echantress) doesn't see them as the original instructions it can replace.

In the part you're quoting from me I was replying to Hhelibebcnofnena's post that said that Chameleon is different from Lantern because the rules for Way means it doesn't just modify, it first replaces then modifies, whereas Lantern only modifies. So that was me saying that Chameleon modifies just as much as Lantern.

But as I wrote in the end of that post, I definitely see how we could say that Chameleon replaces the ability with something else based on that ability. My point is that then the same applies to Lantern. Conversely, if we somehow say that this is not like "blue dog", that we are still resolving the Action card (just with modifications), then that should apply to Chameleon as well as Lantern. Ultimately, I agree with you and GendoIkari that the first alternative seems more correct.

So what I don't see, and which neither you or GendoIkari mentioned in your last posts, is how Lantern is different from Chameleon. Not as long as they both have the same timing, which I think everybody in this thread has assumed (except Dominionaer, but s/he was basing it on the old version of Lantern). Actually, you (Ingix) also mentioned that Lantern might have a different timing. To me that interpretation doesn't follow at all from how the card is supposed to work. Of course we don't have any FAQ for the new version. But we do know that it triggers every time you play Border Guard and changes what happens when you resolve it. This is exactly how Enchantress and Ways work, so to me it would require some kind of official "errata" to say that it works differently.

tl;dr:
How can Lantern be "the same instructions with a change put in", while Chameleon is "new instructions based on the old instructions" if they both happen at the same time? And what is the basis for saying that they don't happen at the same time?

I thought it was known that they don't both happen at the same time, due to the rules that a Way can override Enchantress(because it's at the same time), but Lantern cannot?

I thought it was known without question that Lantern only takes place while Border Guard's instructions are being followed?
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2020, 11:24:43 am »
0

I thought it was known that they don't both happen at the same time, due to the rules that a Way can override Enchantress(because it's at the same time), but Lantern cannot?

I thought it was known without question that Lantern only takes place while Border Guard's instructions are being followed?

I have been qualifying me statements almost every time with "as long as Lantern and Enchantress have the same timing". This was also the basis for the discussion with Hhelibebcnofnena. If we had accepted that they don't have the same timing, that whole discussion would be moot.

EDIT: I guess you're basing your conclusion on Donald's comment in this thread? Because as I said, the cards Chameleon and Lantern both change what a card does when you play it, so the intuitive interpretation otherwise would be that they happen at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 11:26:43 am by Jeebus »
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mxdata

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2020, 11:57:47 am »
+1


I just don’t see how replacing X with X means that we don’t have X.

I think this is the blue dog principle. You replaced something with something else that happens to be "the same", but it really isn't the same any more. Way of the Chameleon (like any Way) replaces following the card's instructions with something else. The "something else" is in this case following modified instructions of the card, but we are still just using a Way, so anything that replaces "following a card's instructions" (Echantress) doesn't see them as the original instructions it can replace.

In the part you're quoting from me I was replying to Hhelibebcnofnena's post that said that Chameleon is different from Lantern because the rules for Way means it doesn't just modify, it first replaces then modifies, whereas Lantern only modifies. So that was me saying that Chameleon modifies just as much as Lantern.

But as I wrote in the end of that post, I definitely see how we could say that Chameleon replaces the ability with something else based on that ability. My point is that then the same applies to Lantern. Conversely, if we somehow say that this is not like "blue dog", that we are still resolving the Action card (just with modifications), then that should apply to Chameleon as well as Lantern. Ultimately, I agree with you and GendoIkari that the first alternative seems more correct.

So what I don't see, and which neither you or GendoIkari mentioned in your last posts, is how Lantern is different from Chameleon. Not as long as they both have the same timing, which I think everybody in this thread has assumed (except Dominionaer, but s/he was basing it on the old version of Lantern). Actually, you (Ingix) also mentioned that Lantern might have a different timing. To me that interpretation doesn't follow at all from how the card is supposed to work. Of course we don't have any FAQ for the new version. But we do know that it triggers every time you play Border Guard and changes what happens when you resolve it. This is exactly how Enchantress and Ways work, so to me it would require some kind of official "errata" to say that it works differently.

tl;dr:
How can Lantern be "the same instructions with a change put in", while Chameleon is "new instructions based on the old instructions" if they both happen at the same time? And what is the basis for saying that they don't happen at the same time?

Because that's how Ways in general work.  When a Way is invoked, or Enchantress is in effect, it effectively replaces the text with something new.  In the case of Chameleon, the new text is defined as being similar to the original text, but it's still completely new text.  Lantern, on the other hand, is just an amendment to BG

And, actually, I would agree that they happen at the same time, so you can choose the order.  But the order isn't relevant for Lantern.  Either Lantern modifies Border Guard, then Enchantress/a Way tells you to ignore Border Guard's text (including Lantern's amendment), or Enchantress/a Way happens first, then Lantern has nothing to amend (unless the Way was Chameleon, since Chameleon would leave the text unchanged), and so fails to have any effect.  In either case, the result is the same - Lantern doesn't do anything.  (Although, by this line of thinking, you could technically use Chameleon to overrule Lantern - I don't know why you'd want to, but you could theoretically use Chameleon that way)

On the other hand, with Enchantress and Ways, the order is relevant.  Either Enchantress happens first, replacing the card's text with +1 Card +1 Action, then the Way happens, replacing the Enchanted card with whatever the Way does (in the case of Chameleon, "follow the original text, with +card and +coin swapped", and so the original text returns with any necessary amendments), or the Way happens first, replacing the card's text with what the Way does, then Enchantress happens, replacing the Way with +1 Card +1 Action.  This is why Ways can replace Enchantress, while Lantern can't do anything about Enchantress
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scolapasta

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2020, 12:27:52 pm »
+1

(Although, by this line of thinking, you could technically use Chameleon to overrule Lantern - I don't know why you'd want to, but you could theoretically use Chameleon that way)

Well, you have ways (no pun intended) of setting up / knowing the top of your deck. You wouldn't always want to discard that 3rd card, instead leaving it there to be drawn next.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2020, 01:28:12 pm »
0

Because that's how Ways in general work.  When a Way is invoked, or Enchantress is in effect, it effectively replaces the text with something new.  In the case of Chameleon, the new text is defined as being similar to the original text, but it's still completely new text.  Lantern, on the other hand, is just an amendment to BG

And, actually, I would agree that they happen at the same time, so you can choose the order.  But the order isn't relevant for Lantern.  Either Lantern modifies Border Guard, then Enchantress/a Way tells you to ignore Border Guard's text (including Lantern's amendment), or Enchantress/a Way happens first, then Lantern has nothing to amend (unless the Way was Chameleon, since Chameleon would leave the text unchanged), and so fails to have any effect.  In either case, the result is the same - Lantern doesn't do anything.  (Although, by this line of thinking, you could technically use Chameleon to overrule Lantern - I don't know why you'd want to, but you could theoretically use Chameleon that way)

On the other hand, with Enchantress and Ways, the order is relevant.  Either Enchantress happens first, replacing the card's text with +1 Card +1 Action, then the Way happens, replacing the Enchanted card with whatever the Way does (in the case of Chameleon, "follow the original text, with +card and +coin swapped", and so the original text returns with any necessary amendments), or the Way happens first, replacing the card's text with what the Way does, then Enchantress happens, replacing the Way with +1 Card +1 Action.  This is why Ways can replace Enchantress, while Lantern can't do anything about Enchantress

You're using the model of "the last applied ability wins". Actually I think Ingix is right that it's the first applied ability that wins. But I'll go with your model here to be able to reply without too much confusion.

You're saying that Lantern would override Chameleon, with the justification that Chameleon leaves the text unchanged. So then that would mean that Enchantress would also override Chameleon (at least in cases where the text is unchanged). But then you're saying that Chameleon overrides Enchantress. This makes no sense to me. And I'm exremely doubtful that Chameleon is supposed to override Enchantress only in the cases where Chameleon changes the effects.

Your argument would be more consistent if you said that Lantern could not override anything, including Chameleon.

In any case, I still don't see any real explanation of why or how Lantern is "just an amendment" but Chameleon is "defined as completely new text". At least not if they have the same timing. I don't find the argument that "that's how Ways in general work" convincing at all. I already explained this in my response to Hhelibebcnofnena. Enchantress has a short version of its rules on the card. Ways have their rules in the rulebook. But it's the same: they change what you do when you're about to resolve a played card. There is nothing special about Ways as opposed to Enchantress here, no special "Ways rule". It's as if Chameleon said "when you play an Action, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way" If Lantern triggers at the same time, why shouldn't it be "when you play a Border Guard, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way"?

Yes, like Trader: "Instead of gaining the card, gain a Silver" (NOT "your card gaining is now modified so that the card is replaced with a Silver")
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 01:35:14 pm by Jeebus »
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mxdata

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2020, 01:53:45 pm »
0

Because that's how Ways in general work.  When a Way is invoked, or Enchantress is in effect, it effectively replaces the text with something new.  In the case of Chameleon, the new text is defined as being similar to the original text, but it's still completely new text.  Lantern, on the other hand, is just an amendment to BG

And, actually, I would agree that they happen at the same time, so you can choose the order.  But the order isn't relevant for Lantern.  Either Lantern modifies Border Guard, then Enchantress/a Way tells you to ignore Border Guard's text (including Lantern's amendment), or Enchantress/a Way happens first, then Lantern has nothing to amend (unless the Way was Chameleon, since Chameleon would leave the text unchanged), and so fails to have any effect.  In either case, the result is the same - Lantern doesn't do anything.  (Although, by this line of thinking, you could technically use Chameleon to overrule Lantern - I don't know why you'd want to, but you could theoretically use Chameleon that way)

On the other hand, with Enchantress and Ways, the order is relevant.  Either Enchantress happens first, replacing the card's text with +1 Card +1 Action, then the Way happens, replacing the Enchanted card with whatever the Way does (in the case of Chameleon, "follow the original text, with +card and +coin swapped", and so the original text returns with any necessary amendments), or the Way happens first, replacing the card's text with what the Way does, then Enchantress happens, replacing the Way with +1 Card +1 Action.  This is why Ways can replace Enchantress, while Lantern can't do anything about Enchantress

You're using the model of "the last applied ability wins". Actually I think Ingix is right that it's the first applied ability that wins. But I'll go with your model here to be able to reply without too much confusion.

You're saying that Lantern would override Chameleon, with the justification that Chameleon leaves the text unchanged. So then that would mean that Enchantress would also override Chameleon (at least in cases where the text is unchanged). But then you're saying that Chameleon overrides Enchantress. This makes no sense to me. And I'm exremely doubtful that Chameleon is supposed to override Enchantress only in the cases where Chameleon changes the effects.

Your argument would be more consistent if you said that Lantern could not override anything, including Chameleon.

In any case, I still don't see any real explanation of why or how Lantern is "just an amendment" but Chameleon is "defined as completely new text". At least not if they have the same timing. I don't find the argument that "that's how Ways in general work" convincing at all. I already explained this in my response to Hhelibebcnofnena. Enchantress has a short version of its rules on the card. Ways have their rules in the rulebook. But it's the same: they change what you do when you're about to resolve a played card. There is nothing special about Ways as opposed to Enchantress here, no special "Ways rule". It's as if Chameleon said "when you play an Action, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way" If Lantern triggers at the same time, why shouldn't it be "when you play a Border Guard, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way"?

Yes, like Trader: "Instead of gaining the card, gain a Silver" (NOT "your card gaining is now modified so that the card is replaced with a Silver")

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  Chameleon, like all Ways, and Enchantress both replace text with something new.  The rulebook says "Playing an Action card for a Way ability means not doing anything the Action card said to do when played."  It explicitly tells you to ignore the card and do what the Way says.  In the case of Chameleon, what Way says is "Follow the card's text, except for this change".  Enchantress also says "don't do what the Action card says to do".  Since you can't do both what the Way says and what Enchantress says, one has to win out.  It makes more sense to me to say that the last-applied effect wins out (if you're replacing X with Y, then replacing Y with Z, then naturally you have Z in the end, not Y), but if you want to say the first-applied effect wins out, it makes no difference and we can just swap the order we apply the effects.  I never said Lantern overrides anything.  It obviously doesn't.  It makes an amendment to Border Guard.  But if Border Guard's text is being ignored, then it fails to have any effect (okay, so maybe Chameleon followed by Lantern also has no effect because Chameleon+BG is technically different from just Border Guard, that doesn't really affect the rest of my argument however)

But, what is relevant is that Lantern, unlike Ways and Enchantress, does not say "don't do what Border Guard says to do", it says "Make this change to Border Guard".  If Enchantress (or a Way) is in effect, then you're ignoring what Border Guard says, which means that Lantern has nothing to amend, or, equivalently, that Lantern's amendment is ignored along with the rest of what Border Guard says.  Either way, Lantern doesn't do anything
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 02:00:52 pm by mxdata »
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Ingix

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2020, 02:02:35 pm »
+2

tl;dr:
How can Lantern be "the same instructions with a change put in", while Chameleon is "new instructions based on the old instructions" if they both happen at the same time? And what is the basis for saying that they don't happen at the same time?

My opinion is that there is not a big, all encompassing theory that explains everything in Dominion and that nobody is telling us out of spite. Effects that are one-off "just work" with a few rulings, and only when there are more of them those rulings become kind of a small theory that works by rules.

Enchantress used to be such a one-off, now it isn't any more. Ways and Enchantress both replace following a card's instructions, and the interactions of those, as far as I understand them, I've described above.

Border Guard/Lantern still is a one-off. There are rulings how it works with Enchantress, and IMO they obviously should also be applied to Ways. I tried to give some explanation how one could arrive at those rulings, but this is just guesswork. With the currently existing card set, it (now) doesn't make sense to me to make a theory, because there just isn't any foundation to build it on. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2020, 02:10:24 pm »
0

If Lantern triggers at the same time, why shouldn't it be "when you play a Border Guard, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way"?

Although I don't think that Lantern triggers at the same time (I think it triggers the moment you go to reveal 2 cards as part of Border Guard), I don't know what reasoning there is for interpreting Border Guard's text the way you suggest here. The rules for both Ways and Enchantress seem clearly defined: "Follow these instructions instead of following the card's normal instructions". But no such rule exists for Lantern. There is no rule saying that Lantern provides alternate instructions. Perhaps there's also no such rule that Lantern simply replaces the 2 with a 3 and keeps the same instructions either... but given Donalds actual ruling that that's how Enchantress and Lantern interact, aren't we forced to conclude that Lantern must be not new instructions you can follow instead of Border Guard's instructions, but rather simply changing what happens when you follow Border Guard's instructions?
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mxdata

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2020, 02:12:13 pm »
+1

tl;dr:
How can Lantern be "the same instructions with a change put in", while Chameleon is "new instructions based on the old instructions" if they both happen at the same time? And what is the basis for saying that they don't happen at the same time?

My opinion is that there is not a big, all encompassing theory that explains everything in Dominion and that nobody is telling us out of spite. Effects that are one-off "just work" with a few rulings, and only when there are more of them those rulings become kind of a small theory that works by rules.

Enchantress used to be such a one-off, now it isn't any more. Ways and Enchantress both replace following a card's instructions, and the interactions of those, as far as I understand them, I've described above.

Border Guard/Lantern still is a one-off. There are rulings how it works with Enchantress, and IMO they obviously should also be applied to Ways. I tried to give some explanation how one could arrive at those rulings, but this is just guesswork. With the currently existing card set, it (now) doesn't make sense to me to make a theory, because there just isn't any foundation to build it on.

But also there's something special about Lantern - it only affects Border Guard.  If you were to trash all your Border Guards after taking the Lantern, then the Lantern would just be sitting there doing absolutely nothing.  In a sense, it feels to me like the Border Guard/Lantern situation is more like cards such as Rogue or Menagerie whose effect is dependent upon something else in the game - what's in the trash for Rogue, and the presence or absence of duplicates for Menagerie

Border Guard/Lantern is kind of like that.  Border Guard does one thing if you have the Lantern and another thing if you don't.  It would lead to a much wordier card, though, if you tried to put it all in BG's text, something like "+1 Action Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck (3 if you have the Lantern). Put one into your hand and discard the other(s). If both/all were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn", so for practical purposes, there's instead text on Lantern that tells you how it affects Border Guard

If this hypothetical text had been how Border Guard was released, then we'd have no debate at all.  It would be obvious that Lantern wouldn't override Enchantress
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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2020, 02:16:00 pm »
0

"when you play an Action, you may instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions in this modified way"

That's not exactly how I've been interpreting Way of the Chameleon. I've been interpreting it as two separate instructions:

When you play an action,
First: instead of following its instructions, follow its instructions.
Second: modify the instructions you are following.

Lantern has no need for the first instruction, so it only uses the second. Way of the Chameleon, being a Way, needs the first instruction, which is what gives it the weird Enchantress override.

I'm starting to see how it could be seen as only one instruction, though. If it were two, shouldn't that semicolon be a period? Now I'm getting confused.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2020, 02:48:29 pm »
0

I never said Lantern overrides anything.  It obviously doesn't.  It makes an amendment to Border Guard.  But if Border Guard's text is being ignored, then it fails to have any effect (okay, so maybe Chameleon followed by Lantern also has no effect because Chameleon+BG is technically different from just Border Guard, that doesn't really affect the rest of my argument however)

Yes, you wrote: "Enchantress/a Way happens first, then Lantern has nothing to amend (unless the Way was Chameleon, since Chameleon would leave the text unchanged)".
But I guess you're changing your mind there now.

But, what is relevant is that Lantern, unlike Ways and Enchantress, does not say "don't do what Border Guard says to do", it says "Make this change to Border Guard".  If Enchantress (or a Way) is in effect, then you're ignoring what Border Guard says, which means that Lantern has nothing to amend, or, equivalently, that Lantern's amendment is ignored along with the rest of what Border Guard says.  Either way, Lantern doesn't do anything

Lantern tells you to do something different instead of what you're usually doing. Exactly like with Chameleon, that "something different" is based on the normal effects. With Chameleon, we have a rule saying that the ability is replaced with a modified version of itself. Like I said, it's exactly like Trader. So we have precedent for this in Dominion: When an ability tells you to do something instead of something else, the first thing doesn't happen. It's natural to interpret Lantern the same way, since it does exactly the same as Chameleon. The fact that we have this explained for Chameleon is a coincidence because there are other Ways. If Chameleon were the only one, its card text would be similar to Lantern's - and I bet Donald would reply here saying that Chameleon could not override Enchantress.

Although I don't think that Lantern triggers at the same time (I think it triggers the moment you go to reveal 2 cards as part of Border Guard), I don't know what reasoning there is for interpreting Border Guard's text the way you suggest here. The rules for both Ways and Enchantress seem clearly defined: "Follow these instructions instead of following the card's normal instructions". But no such rule exists for Lantern. There is no rule saying that Lantern provides alternate instructions. Perhaps there's also no such rule that Lantern simply replaces the 2 with a 3 and keeps the same instructions either... but given Donalds actual ruling that that's how Enchantress and Lantern interact, aren't we forced to conclude that Lantern must be not new instructions you can follow instead of Border Guard's instructions, but rather simply changing what happens when you follow Border Guard's instructions?

But Lantern does actually tell you to do something instead of what you would normally do. Lantern doesn't shapeshift Border Guard anymore. So there are alternate instructions. I don't know how you can deny that. "Simply replaceing the 2 with a 3", etc, is also providing alternate instructions.

That leaves the question of the timing. The natural interpretation is that it does this just as you're about to do it, just like all other cards like this. To conclude that it triggers several times during your resolution of Border Guard seems very forced to me. It seems to be a rule invented just to avoid a certain interaction.

Anyway, yes, if Donald sticks to that, maybe we're forced to conclude that. I asked him what's the difference between Lantern and Chameleon in order to figure this out.

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2020, 03:02:15 pm »
0

My opinion is that there is not a big, all encompassing theory that explains everything in Dominion and that nobody is telling us out of spite. Effects that are one-off "just work" with a few rulings, and only when there are more of them those rulings become kind of a small theory that works by rules.

Enchantress used to be such a one-off, now it isn't any more. Ways and Enchantress both replace following a card's instructions, and the interactions of those, as far as I understand them, I've described above.

Border Guard/Lantern still is a one-off. There are rulings how it works with Enchantress, and IMO they obviously should also be applied to Ways. I tried to give some explanation how one could arrive at those rulings, but this is just guesswork. With the currently existing card set, it (now) doesn't make sense to me to make a theory, because there just isn't any foundation to build it on.

Well, I've been around since somebody asked why a Throned and trashed Mining Village didn't get moved back to play, since the rules say that it should. And Donald had a big all-encompassing rule to explain it! There are many of those in Dominion. Another one is that "when x" means "after x is finished". Of course that doesn't mean that cards can't exist that do crazy things, but they should work within the framework of the existing rules. For instance, a card shouldn't say "when you buy a Horse, gain a Silver", with the rulebook explaining that this card allows you to buy a Horse, since that would break the rules. We could say that this card has an mistake and needs an errata to reflect the explanation in the rulebook, but we can't say that it works the way it's written.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 03:07:16 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2020, 03:23:11 pm »
+1


Lantern tells you to do something different instead of what you're usually doing. Exactly like with Chameleon, that "something different" is based on the normal effects. With Chameleon, we have a rule saying that the ability is replaced with a modified version of itself. Like I said, it's exactly like Trader. So we have precedent for this in Dominion: When an ability tells you to do something instead of something else, the first thing doesn't happen. It's natural to interpret Lantern the same way, since it does exactly the same as Chameleon. The fact that we have this explained for Chameleon is a coincidence because there are other Ways. If Chameleon were the only one, its card text would be similar to Lantern's - and I bet Donald would reply here saying that Chameleon could not override Enchantress.


It still feels like you're missing a step that happens when you use Chameleon. You have to think of Chameleon the same as all other Ways. Ways don't modify instructions on a card; they fully replace those instructions with something new. Whether it's Way of the Chameleon or Way of the Pig doesn't matter; in both cases you are getting brand new replacement instructions; not a modified version of the old instructions.

It just so happens that those brand new instructions on Chameleon tell you to do something that is based on the original card instructions. But that doesn't mean that Chameleon is "just" modifying the original card's instructions. It's still giving you a new instruction to follow.

Example of playing Smithy choosing Chameleon. It seems like your interpretation is that Chameleon modifies "+3 cards" to "+". But I think this is wrong. Chameleon replaces "+3 cards" with "Follow this card's instructions; each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get +$ instead, and vice-versa."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 03:25:24 pm by GendoIkari »
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scolapasta

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2020, 03:35:39 pm »
+2


Lantern tells you to do something different instead of what you're usually doing. Exactly like with Chameleon, that "something different" is based on the normal effects. With Chameleon, we have a rule saying that the ability is replaced with a modified version of itself. Like I said, it's exactly like Trader. So we have precedent for this in Dominion: When an ability tells you to do something instead of something else, the first thing doesn't happen. It's natural to interpret Lantern the same way, since it does exactly the same as Chameleon. The fact that we have this explained for Chameleon is a coincidence because there are other Ways. If Chameleon were the only one, its card text would be similar to Lantern's - and I bet Donald would reply here saying that Chameleon could not override Enchantress.


It still feels like you're missing a step that happens when you use Chameleon. You have to think of Chameleon the same as all other Ways. Ways don't modify instructions on a card; they fully replace those instructions with something new. Whether it's Way of the Chameleon or Way of the Pig doesn't matter; in both cases you are getting brand new replacement instructions; not a modified version of the old instructions.

It just so happens that those brand new instructions on Chameleon tell you to do something that is based on the original card instructions. But that doesn't mean that Chameleon is "just" modifying the original card's instructions. It's still giving you a new instruction to follow.

Example of playing Smithy choosing Chameleon. It seems like your interpretation is that Chameleon modifies "+3 cards" to "+". But I think this is wrong. Chameleon replaces "+3 cards" with "Follow this card's instructions; each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get +$ instead, and vice-versa."

In this same vein:

Player A plays Enchantress.
Player B plays Necropolis as Way of the Ox.

Even though the instructions are still +2 Action, they are "different", so Enchantress doesn't "enchant".
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2020, 03:42:42 pm »
0

It still feels like you're missing a step that happens when you use Chameleon. You have to think of Chameleon the same as all other Ways. Ways don't modify instructions on a card; they fully replace those instructions with something new. Whether it's Way of the Chameleon or Way of the Pig doesn't matter; in both cases you are getting brand new replacement instructions; not a modified version of the old instructions.

It just so happens that those brand new instructions on Chameleon tell you to do something that is based on the original card instructions. But that doesn't mean that Chameleon is "just" modifying the original card's instructions. It's still giving you a new instruction to follow.

Example of playing Smithy choosing Chameleon. It seems like your interpretation is that Chameleon modifies "+3 cards" to "+". But I think this is wrong. Chameleon replaces "+3 cards" with "Follow this card's instructions; each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get +$ instead, and vice-versa."

I haven't been missing that. But now I think you've totally misunderstood what I've been saying. :)

Clearly I have not been saying that I think Chameleon triggers several times during the resolution of the played card, since I just said that I found that interpretation forced for Lantern.

Also I have not been saying that Chameleon somehow shapeshifts the played card.

I have been saying that it works exactly like you say, it's just that I've been saying that Lantern should work that way too.

Yes, I understand Chameleon works that way because that's how Ways work (unless Donald chimes in and says that that specific rule about Ways don't apply to Chameleon). What I'm saying is that Chameleon is supposed to achieve the exact same thing that Lantern is supposed to achieve, namely making you do a modified version of the ability instead of the as-is ability. Like I said: The fact that we have this explained for Chameleon is a coincidence because there are other Ways. If Chameleon were the only one, its card text would be similar to Lantern's.

I don't know what to say. Maybe if you go back and check out some of my recent posts again, it will be clearer.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 05:20:51 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2020, 03:56:36 pm »
0

It's like you're seeing two cards:
"when you play an Action card, you may instead follow its instructions getting +Cards instead of +$ and vice versa"
"when you play a Border Guard, you may instead follow its instructions revealing 3 cards instead of 2 and discarding 2 instead of 1"

and concluding that the way they work is fundamentally different.

Those are the instructions on Chameleon with the rules included on the card like on Enchantress.

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2020, 04:34:41 pm »
+2

"when you play a Border Guard, you may instead follow its instructions revealing 3 cards instead of 2 and discarding 2 instead of 1"

Except that's not what lantern says. It says "Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2." It has nothing saying either way that it's completely replacing Border Guard's text or just modifying what's there. I'm inclined to the direction that it's modifying what is already happening, as it says nothing about "instead of following its instructions."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2020, 04:45:41 pm »
+1

"when you play a Border Guard, you may instead follow its instructions revealing 3 cards instead of 2 and discarding 2 instead of 1"

Except that's not what lantern says. It says "Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2." It has nothing saying either way that it's completely replacing Border Guard's text or just modifying what's there. I'm inclined to the direction that it's modifying what is already happening, as it says nothing about "instead of following its instructions."

Right, this is the big difference that I've been trying to point out. Lantern does not contain an instruction to follow, Ways do.
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Jeebus

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2020, 05:14:07 pm »
0

Except that's not what lantern says. It says "Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2." It has nothing saying either way that it's completely replacing Border Guard's text or just modifying what's there. I'm inclined to the direction that it's modifying what is already happening, as it says nothing about "instead of following its instructions."

Of course that's not what it literally says. What is literally says obviously doesn't tell us how it works or the timing. Literally, it says that Border Guards you play does something, it doesn't say when they do it or for how long the effect lasts or if it is instead of something else. Obviously the meaning is "instead" (or it would mean that you reveal 3 cards and discard 2 in addition to doing the normal play ability). Instead of what? Obviously it replaces at least parts of the instructions.

This:
"when you play an Action card, you may instead follow its instructions getting +Cards instead of +$ and vice versa"
"when you play a Border Guard, you may instead follow its instructions revealing 3 cards instead of 2 and discarding 2 instead of 1"

means replacing the instructions, either wholly or in part, either when you would start resolving the instructions or when you would resolve each instruction. Does anybody actually disagree with this?

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Re: Does Lantern override Enchantress?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2020, 05:19:00 pm »
0

Right, this is the big difference that I've been trying to point out. Lantern does not contain an instruction to follow, Ways do.

It sounds like you think Lantern still causes shapeshifting, telling you to replace numbers in the card text. Lantern does contain instructions to follow. It is to reveal 3 instead of 2 cards, etc. I can't believe this part is controversial.

I have been saying this before, look:
But Lantern does actually tell you to do something instead of what you would normally do. Lantern doesn't shapeshift Border Guard anymore. So there are alternate instructions. I don't know how you can deny that. "Simply replaceing the 2 with a 3", etc, is also providing alternate instructions.
What's your response?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 05:24:33 pm by Jeebus »
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