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[Jeebus]

Realizing that a Way overrides Enchantress made me think that Lantern could work the same way. When you get to resolving the play ability of the Enchanted Border Guard, you can choose to apply Enchantress first and then Lantern. The question then is, what does Lantern do? Obviously it tells you to resolve a modified version of Border Guard's play ability (similar to Way of the Chamelion), but does it only work when you were already going to resolve that exact ability, or does it already "know" the whole "modified Border Guard ability" and just cares that you were going to resolve a Border Guard?

The latter case would mean that "reveal 3 cards and discard 2, it takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn" implicitly means the whole text: "Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put one into your hand and discard the others. If all were Actions, take the Lantern or Horn."

[Jeebus]

One reason to think that Lantern actually does override Enchantress, is that I'm pretty sure Way of the Chameleon does. (As I understand it, all Ways do.)

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is the case. An Enchanted Border Guard still has the same card text, after all.

[mxdata]

I think you're right.  I can't think of any logical reason why Lantern shouldn't be able to override Enchantress.  In effect, Enchantress, Ways, and Lantern are all things that try to change what a card does, so they all trigger at the same time, meaning that you can order the effects in any way, with the last effect "winning out"

[Donald X.]

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

[GendoIkari]

Related, how do Enchantress and Way of the Chameleon interact? I understand that with Ways in general, you can choose to apply the Way effect rather than the Enchantress effect. But with Chameleon, can you do Enchantress's +1 card +1 action, but replace the +1 card  with +? I'm guessing not, because Chameleon says to "follow this card's instructions", which are the actual instructions on the card, not the Enchantress instructions. But not sure.

[mxdata]

Related, how do Enchantress and Way of the Chameleon interact? I understand that with Ways in general, you can choose to apply the Way effect rather than the Enchantress effect. But with Chameleon, can you do Enchantress's +1 card +1 action, but replace the +1 card  with +? I'm guessing not, because Chameleon says to "follow this card's instructions", which are the actual instructions on the card, not the Enchantress instructions. But not sure.

Yeah, that's been previously discussed.  It has the funny effect of allowing something like Marketplace to dodge Enchantress.  Apply Chameleon to Marketplace, and you change the +1 card to +$1 and the +$1 to +1 card ... so it does the same thing it would normally do, but since the Way is being used, it overrides Enchantress

[Dominionaer]

I think you're right.  I can't think of any logical reason why Lantern shouldn't be able to override Enchantress.  In effect, Enchantress, Ways, and Lantern are all things that try to change what a card does, so they all trigger at the same time, meaning that you can order the effects in any way, with the last effect "winning out"

I think Border Guards change to the Lantern version the moment i get Lantern. So it is not same time and so no choice of order.

[Jeebus]

Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing.

Does Way of the Chameleon override Enchantress? If yes, what is the difference between that and Lantern? I mean, with Enchantress in effect, you ignore the card's instructions, so how can Way of the Chameleon do anything? Unless it actually does what GendoIkari asked about, modifies the Enchantress effect instead of the card's own ability?

[Jeebus]

I think Border Guards change to the Lantern version the moment i get Lantern. So it is not same time and so no choice of order.

No, that's how Lantern used to work. It changed the actual ability on your Border Guards. But the new version from the September 2019 errata has the same timing as Enchantress.

[Jeebus]

How I thought I understood it:

Enchantress triggers when you would resolve the first Action card you played this turn.
I'm assuming Lantern triggers when you would resolve a Border Guard you played.

It's possible to replace the play ability of a card several times. For instance, first Enchantress, then a Way. So that means the Way can do it even when you're no longer doing the normal play ability. You're still set to resolve the card, so you can replace it. This should mean that both Way of the Chameleon and Lantern can also replace it after Enchantress.

[Dominionaer]

the new version from the September 2019 errata has the same timing as Enchantress.

Please enlighten me with your reasoning for that?

[Jeebus]

the new version from the September 2019 errata has the same timing as Enchantress.

Please enlighten me with your reasoning for that?

I think this is all I have from Donald: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19892.msg819683#msg819683
Granted, he's not confirming or denying that it has the same timing as Enchantress. But since Lantern changes what you do when you resolve a card, I have been assuming it was the same, and so far I can't think of any other timing that makes sense.

[Ingix]

It's possible to replace the play ability of a card several times.

No, that is AFAIK not true. You can replace following the card's instructions once, but then you aren't following the card's instruction any more, so any other replacements for "follow a card's instructions" don't apply any more. That's how Ways "beat" Enchantress: Once a Way has been applied, there isn't something to apply the Enchantress effect to.

I do not know how the Lantern works formally. One possible explanation is that it replaces just a part of following the Border Guard's instruction.

[mxdata]

It's possible to replace the play ability of a card several times.

No, that is AFAIK not true. You can replace following the card's instructions once, but then you aren't following the card's instruction any more, so any other replacements for "follow a card's instructions" don't apply any more. That's how Ways "beat" Enchantress: Once a Way has been applied, there isn't something to apply the Enchantress effect to.

I do not know how the Lantern works formally. One possible explanation is that it replaces just a part of following the Border Guard's instruction.

I believe with Ways beating Enchantress it's actually a matter of ordering the changes.  Enchantress is essentially a forced Way, so it's either
1. Change card to +1 Card +1 Action
2. Apply Way (replace card's normal text; with Chameleon, it specifically says to follow the card's direction except for its modification, so the original text "returns")

or

1. Apply Way (replace card's normal text)
2. Change card [in this case the Way] to +1 Card +1 Action

So the last-applied change dominates

With Lantern it's either
1. Apply Lantern (modify Border guard to say "3 cards")
2. Apply Enchantress/Way (replacing Border Guard's normal text)

or

1. Apply Enchantress/Way (replacing Border Guard's normal text)
2. Apply Lantern (fails because Border Guard's normal text has been overriden)

Thus in either case, the Enchantress "wins out"

[Jeebus]

It's possible to replace the play ability of a card several times.

No, that is AFAIK not true. You can replace following the card's instructions once, but then you aren't following the card's instruction any more, so any other replacements for "follow a card's instructions" don't apply any more. That's how Ways "beat" Enchantress: Once a Way has been applied, there isn't something to apply the Enchantress effect to.

I do not know how the Lantern works formally. One possible explanation is that it replaces just a part of following the Border Guard's instruction.

Man, Enchantress is tough to parse. I asked this before, and I took Donald's reply as confirmation that I was right. But maybe I wasn't. I thought it meant that you're still resolving the card even when Way/Enchantress has replaced it, just with other instructions, so that's why you can replace it again. (This would explain nicely how Royal Carriage can trigger when the card's instructions were not resolved.)

It would be nice if Donald could confirm which is the case: Does the first applied ability win, or the last applied?

But if you're right that it's the first ability that wins, I still don't think it changes the conclusion, as long as Lantern has the same timing as Enchantress and Way of the Chameleon. If you choose to apply Lantern or Way of the Chameleon first, you aren't following the card's instructions any more, so Enchantress can't replace them.

[hhelibebcnofnena]

Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

How I understand it:

There are two ways to interpret this. Either this is actually a modification of Border Guard's played effect (i.e. "When you would reveal cards with Border Guard, reveal 3 of them. When you would discard cards with Border Guard, discard two of them.") or it is a replacement of Border Guard's effect (i.e. "When you would play Border Guard, instead of following its effect, reveal 3 cards and discard 2.").

If Lantern were a replacement, then it would, in fact, be able to replace Enchantress (or at least you would get to choose, I think).

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Way of the Chameleon, on the other hand, is a replacement followed by a modification. The fact that it is a Way makes it a replacement. But, it tells you to "follow this card's instructions," so most of the time the replacement section has no effect, except with Enchantress. The replacement is then followed by a modification, but Enchantress by this point has already been replaced.

The real question: How does Lantern interact with Way of the Mole. Way of the Mole tells you to discard your hand. Does Lantern's "Border Guards you play discard 2 cards" mean that a Moled Border Guard can discard only two cards instead of your whole hand? I imagine you can choose whether Lantern's modification comes before or after a Way?

[mxdata]

Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

How I understand it:

There are two ways to interpret this. Either this is actually a modification of Border Guard's played effect (i.e. "When you would reveal cards with Border Guard, reveal 3 of them. When you would discard cards with Border Guard, discard two of them.") or it is a replacement of Border Guard's effect (i.e. "When you would play Border Guard, instead of following its effect, reveal 3 cards and discard 2.").

If Lantern were a replacement, then it would, in fact, be able to replace Enchantress (or at least you would get to choose, I think).

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Way of the Chameleon, on the other hand, is a replacement followed by a modification. The fact that it is a Way makes it a replacement. But, it tells you to "follow this card's instructions," so most of the time the replacement section has no effect, except with Enchantress. The replacement is then followed by a modification, but Enchantress by this point has already been replaced.

The real question: How does Lantern interact with Way of the Mole. Way of the Mole tells you to discard your hand. Does Lantern's "Border Guards you play discard 2 cards" mean that a Moled Border Guard can discard only two cards instead of your whole hand? I imagine you can choose whether Lantern's modification comes before or after a Way?

No, I think either way a Moled BG with Lantern would still be "discard your hand +3 cards", for the same reason that Lantern doesn't override Enchantress - if you apply Mole first, then Lantern fails to apply (and if you applied Lantern first, then Mole would completely override it)

[hhelibebcnofnena]

Border Guards you play reveal 3 cards and discard 2. (It takes all 3 being Actions to take the Horn.)

How I understand it:

There are two ways to interpret this. Either this is actually a modification of Border Guard's played effect (i.e. "When you would reveal cards with Border Guard, reveal 3 of them. When you would discard cards with Border Guard, discard two of them.") or it is a replacement of Border Guard's effect (i.e. "When you would play Border Guard, instead of following its effect, reveal 3 cards and discard 2.").

If Lantern were a replacement, then it would, in fact, be able to replace Enchantress (or at least you would get to choose, I think).

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Way of the Chameleon, on the other hand, is a replacement followed by a modification. The fact that it is a Way makes it a replacement. But, it tells you to "follow this card's instructions," so most of the time the replacement section has no effect, except with Enchantress. The replacement is then followed by a modification, but Enchantress by this point has already been replaced.

The real question: How does Lantern interact with Way of the Mole. Way of the Mole tells you to discard your hand. Does Lantern's "Border Guards you play discard 2 cards" mean that a Moled Border Guard can discard only two cards instead of your whole hand? I imagine you can choose whether Lantern's modification comes before or after a Way?

No, I think either way a Moled BG with Lantern would still be "discard your hand +3 cards", for the same reason that Lantern doesn't override Enchantress - if you apply Mole first, then Lantern fails to apply (and if you applied Lantern first, then Mole would completely override it)

I think Lantern doesn't override Enchantress because Lantern doesn't override anything. Lantern modifies, and the modification has no effect on Enchantress. However, it might have an effect on Way of the Mole. Also, we know that the reason Ways override Enchantress is the following:

So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.

It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."

They occur at the same time, and you can just choose to have the Way resolve second, making it "win". None of the effects "fail", they just get overridden.

[Jeebus]

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Lantern could be a replacement, the replacement being the Border Guard's normal text with some modification. As you note, this is how Way of the Chameleon works. There is no obvious reason Lantern shouldn't work the same way. Then it would be a replacement and still give +1 Action.

[Jeebus]

I think Lantern doesn't override Enchantress because Lantern doesn't override anything. Lantern modifies, and the modification has no effect on Enchantress. However, it might have an effect on Way of the Mole. Also, we know that the reason Ways override Enchantress is the following:

So this means that it has the same timing as Enchantress? You can choose to resolve Enchantress first and then the Way, meaning that the Way "wins". Or you can choose to do it the other way around, but the result would be the same as not choosing the Way at all.

It's the same timing as Enchantress; obv. you will choose to have the Way "win."

They occur at the same time, and you can just choose to have the Way resolve second, making it "win". None of the effects "fail", they just get overridden.

According to Ingix, what I wrote there is wrong. We can't know for sure until Donald says something.

[hhelibebcnofnena]

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Lantern could be a replacement, the replacement being the Border Guard's normal text with some modification. As you note, this is how Way of the Chameleon works. There is no obvious reason Lantern shouldn't work the same way. Then it would be a replacement and still give +1 Action.

Okay, that's fair. But I am guessing from Donald's earlier post that Lantern is simply a modification and not a replacement. Way of the Chameleon would probably like to do that too, but it can't because it is a Way, and Ways have built in rules which inherently make them replacements. So it gets around that by replacing the card with itself, and then modifying it.

[mxdata]

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Lantern could be a replacement, the replacement being the Border Guard's normal text with some modification. As you note, this is how Way of the Chameleon works. There is no obvious reason Lantern shouldn't work the same way. Then it would be a replacement and still give +1 Action.

Donald X earlier in this thread said "Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing." So the same should apply to Ways.  With a Way in effect, such as Mole, you ignore the instructions, so Lantern wouldn't work.  The only Way where you keep the directions is Chameleon, and since there's no +card or +coin on Border Guard, there's nothing for Chameleon to do anything with

[GendoIkari]

However, we know for a fact that Lantern is not a replacement. If it were, Border Guards would cease to give +1 Action.
Therefore, it must be a modification, and therefore it does not replace Enchantress.

Lantern could be a replacement, the replacement being the Border Guard's normal text with some modification. As you note, this is how Way of the Chameleon works. There is no obvious reason Lantern shouldn't work the same way. Then it would be a replacement and still give +1 Action.

Donald X earlier in this thread said "Lantern modifies what happens due to following the instructions on Border Guard. With Enchantress in effect, you ignore those instructions, so Lantern does nothing." So the same should apply to Ways.  With a Way in effect, such as Mole, you ignore the instructions, so Lantern wouldn't work.  The only Way where you keep the directions is Chameleon, and since there's no +card or +coin on Border Guard, there's nothing for Chameleon to do anything with

I think I see a difference between Ways and Lantern given the wording from Donald X as quoted here. With Lantern, you still follow Border Guard's instructions; it changes how those instructions work, but it doesn’t replace the instructions. With both Ways and Enchantress, the instructions aren’t just changed, they are replaced. You’re following brand new instructions. But Lantern isn’t new instructions, it’s the same instructions with a change put in.

[Jeebus]

I think I see a difference between Ways and Lantern given the wording from Donald X as quoted here. With Lantern, you still follow Border Guard's instructions; it changes how those instructions work, but it doesn’t replace the instructions. With both Ways and Enchantress, the instructions aren’t just changed, they are replaced. You’re following brand new instructions. But Lantern isn’t new instructions, it’s the same instructions with a change put in.

I still don't see how that's different from the way Way of the Chameleon is supposed to work, but maybe you're saying that Way of the Chameleon doesn't override Enchantress either.

I will also note that Donald didn't say that Lantern makes you follow Border Guard's instructions; he said that Lantern only works when you are already following Border Guard's instructions. That's not the same thing.

[hhelibebcnofnena]

I think I see a difference between Ways and Lantern given the wording from Donald X as quoted here. With Lantern, you still follow Border Guard's instructions; it changes how those instructions work, but it doesn’t replace the instructions. With both Ways and Enchantress, the instructions aren’t just changed, they are replaced. You’re following brand new instructions. But Lantern isn’t new instructions, it’s the same instructions with a change put in.

I still don't see how that's different from the way Way of the Chameleon is supposed to work, but maybe you're saying that Way of the Chameleon doesn't override Enchantress either.

I will also note that Donald didn't say that Lantern makes you follow Border Guard's instructions; he said that Lantern only works when you are already following Border Guard's instructions. That's not the same thing.

It's not different from how Way of the Chameleon would ideally work. However, Way of the Chameleon has the difference of being restricted by Way rules, which means it has to act as a full replacement somehow. The method it uses of getting around that restriction is by making sure the replacement has no effect (except in edge cases like Enchantress), but still takes place. Then it modifies. Lantern isn't restricted in the same way, so it doesn't have to act as a full replacement before modification.

Sorry if this is too similar to what I said previously.