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Author Topic: Durable Mouse  (Read 11213 times)

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AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2020, 08:02:32 pm »
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Way of the Chameleon specifically says "Follow this card's instructions"; the reason you can't chameleonize the enchantment of an enchanted card is because the +1 card / +1 action isn't "this card's instructions". Playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action, but it's not part of the card's instructions.

The last sentence is what I don't agree with. Yes, it happens as a result of playing the card, but so does Kiln and Royal Carriage. You'd have to address what I've written about that.

It seems like the part of that sentence you don't agree with is "playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action". Do you also disagree with "it's not part of the card's instructions"?
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2020, 10:41:37 pm »
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Way of the Chameleon specifically says "Follow this card's instructions"; the reason you can't chameleonize the enchantment of an enchanted card is because the +1 card / +1 action isn't "this card's instructions". Playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action, but it's not part of the card's instructions.

The last sentence is what I don't agree with. Yes, it happens as a result of playing the card, but so does Kiln and Royal Carriage. You'd have to address what I've written about that.

It seems like the part of that sentence you don't agree with is "playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action". Do you also disagree with "it's not part of the card's instructions"?

Right, that's the part. I agree with "it's not part of the card's instructions".

AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2020, 12:45:20 am »
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Way of the Chameleon specifically says "Follow this card's instructions"; the reason you can't chameleonize the enchantment of an enchanted card is because the +1 card / +1 action isn't "this card's instructions". Playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action, but it's not part of the card's instructions.

The last sentence is what I don't agree with. Yes, it happens as a result of playing the card, but so does Kiln and Royal Carriage. You'd have to address what I've written about that.

It seems like the part of that sentence you don't agree with is "playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action". Do you also disagree with "it's not part of the card's instructions"?

Right, that's the part. I agree with "it's not part of the card's instructions".

Okay, so given that +1 card / +1 action is not part of the card's instructions, there's no way Way of the Chameleon could convert that to +$1 / +1 action, since Way of the Chameleon specifically acts upon a card's "instructions". So Way of the Chameleon is a red herring, irrelevant to the issue of the Durable Mouse.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2020, 01:37:50 am »
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Okay, so given that +1 card / +1 action is not part of the card's instructions, there's no way Way of the Chameleon could convert that to +$1 / +1 action, since Way of the Chameleon specifically acts upon a card's "instructions". So Way of the Chameleon is a red herring, irrelevant to the issue of the Durable Mouse.

Agree with everything again, except that it's irrelevant. The point of Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon is not Chameleon, it's Enchantress. Exactly as you're describing, we're not following the card's instructions. And Ways work the same way.

AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2020, 01:47:28 am »
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Okay, so given that +1 card / +1 action is not part of the card's instructions, there's no way Way of the Chameleon could convert that to +$1 / +1 action, since Way of the Chameleon specifically acts upon a card's "instructions". So Way of the Chameleon is a red herring, irrelevant to the issue of the Durable Mouse.

Agree with everything again, except that it's irrelevant. The point of Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon is not Chameleon, it's Enchantress. Exactly as you're describing, we're not following the card's instructions. And Ways work the same way.

What does this have to do with the Durable Mouse issue?
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2020, 01:56:47 am »
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Okay, so given that +1 card / +1 action is not part of the card's instructions, there's no way Way of the Chameleon could convert that to +$1 / +1 action, since Way of the Chameleon specifically acts upon a card's "instructions". So Way of the Chameleon is a red herring, irrelevant to the issue of the Durable Mouse.

Agree with everything again, except that it's irrelevant. The point of Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon is not Chameleon, it's Enchantress. Exactly as you're describing, we're not following the card's instructions. And Ways work the same way.

What does this have to do with the Durable Mouse issue?

It's what I've been saying from my first post. It's not the Action card's effects that make us play the Duration, it's Way of the Mouse's.

Donald X.

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2020, 01:19:57 pm »
+2

Thanks for saying the intended behavior. I thought the Menagerie rulebook was written after the 2019 errata, so that's why I really expected Way of the Mouse to include this like BoM will.

In any case, you haven't addressed the issue of how this behavior is possible of course, and I don't expect that you will. I've been taught by Dominion to read what the cards say and follow the rules, and that's what I'm doing. (Of course when it comes to certain interactions, the card texts sometimes don't describe exactly how the card technically works.) In this case I don't see how this Mouse behavior is consistent with an Enchanted and Chameleon'ed card not giving you +$1/+1 Action. So far nobody has made a convincing description of how it can be possible (except GendoIkari by including an extra, general rule which doesn't seem to exist). I guess for now we can say that it's a special ruling for Way of the Mouse in order to facilitate tracking.
The timing of the Menagerie rulebook being finalized meant it could have had that; it didn't manage to though.

It's a special ruling for Way of the Mouse tracking, like the rule for Band of Misfits. There's no general rule for either case; my memory is that that was too tricky, and also not going to matter except for these specific cards, so I didn't want to just throw it at people in Seaside.

I'm not sure how further to clarify it for you. It's possible because it's a ruling for how Way of the Mouse handles tracking. Ways don't edit text, don't change card instructions, hence "follow this card's instructions" on Chameleon can't change what Way of the Mule or Enchantress does; that doesn't feel related to me. You don't "play" Ways, they aren't cards. You play an Action card, and instead of doing what it normally does when played, you do the Way.
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AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2020, 01:48:47 pm »
+1

Okay, so given that +1 card / +1 action is not part of the card's instructions, there's no way Way of the Chameleon could convert that to +$1 / +1 action, since Way of the Chameleon specifically acts upon a card's "instructions". So Way of the Chameleon is a red herring, irrelevant to the issue of the Durable Mouse.

Agree with everything again, except that it's irrelevant. The point of Enchantress + Way of the Chameleon is not Chameleon, it's Enchantress. Exactly as you're describing, we're not following the card's instructions. And Ways work the same way.

What does this have to do with the Durable Mouse issue?

It's what I've been saying from my first post. It's not the Action card's effects that make us play the Duration, it's Way of the Mouse's.

It's not the Action card's instructions that make us play the Duration. But it is the Action card's effect.

As Donald says above, a Way is something an Action card can do when played. Ingix quoted you the text from the rule book that implies this and you dismissed it out of hand for no readily apparent reason.

Compare the interpretation of the word "this" on a Way. "Return this to its pile" on Way of the Horse doesn't mean you return Way of the Horse to its pile.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2020, 01:49:09 pm »
0

The timing of the Menagerie rulebook being finalized meant it could have had that; it didn't manage to though.

It's a special ruling for Way of the Mouse tracking, like the rule for Band of Misfits. There's no general rule for either case; my memory is that that was too tricky, and also not going to matter except for these specific cards, so I didn't want to just throw it at people in Seaside.

I'm not sure how further to clarify it for you. It's possible because it's a ruling for how Way of the Mouse handles tracking. Ways don't edit text, don't change card instructions, hence "follow this card's instructions" on Chameleon can't change what Way of the Mule or Enchantress does; that doesn't feel related to me. You don't "play" Ways, they aren't cards. You play an Action card, and instead of doing what it normally does when played, you do the Way.

Thanks, no need for further clarification; that's all how I have understood Ways to work. I was following the 2019 rules update ("2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters"), which to me read as a general rule for all cards that plays a card that isn't put into play. That rule is what made everybody assume that it applied to Way of the Mouse too. But what I've been saying here is that given that Ways work exactly like you said now, I don't see how that rule can apply to the Action card you play to use Way of the Mouse. But okay, you're saying that there's also a ruling for Mouse to handle the same tracking situations.

AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2020, 02:12:53 pm »
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The timing of the Menagerie rulebook being finalized meant it could have had that; it didn't manage to though.

It's a special ruling for Way of the Mouse tracking, like the rule for Band of Misfits. There's no general rule for either case; my memory is that that was too tricky, and also not going to matter except for these specific cards, so I didn't want to just throw it at people in Seaside.

I'm not sure how further to clarify it for you. It's possible because it's a ruling for how Way of the Mouse handles tracking. Ways don't edit text, don't change card instructions, hence "follow this card's instructions" on Chameleon can't change what Way of the Mule or Enchantress does; that doesn't feel related to me. You don't "play" Ways, they aren't cards. You play an Action card, and instead of doing what it normally does when played, you do the Way.

Thanks, no need for further clarification; that's all how I have understood Ways to work. I was following the 2019 rules update ("2. Tracking for the former shapeshifters"), which to me read as a general rule for all cards that plays a card that isn't put into play. That rule is what made everybody assume that it applied to Way of the Mouse too. But what I've been saying here is that given that Ways work exactly like you said now, I don't see how that rule can apply to the Action card you play to use Way of the Mouse. But okay, you're saying that there's also a ruling for Mouse to handle the same tracking situations.

I don't understand your reasoning here at all. Given that Ways work exactly as Donald said now, that means that the "Tracking for the former shapeshifters" rule applies to the Action card played according to the Way of the Mouse. I play Necropolis, Necropolis plays Fishing Village, and so Necropolis stays in play.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2020, 02:23:08 pm »
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It's not the Action card's instructions that make us play the Duration. But it is the Action card's effect.

Semantics discussion are never helpful. A card has effects when played, these are given in the form of instructions. I like to call the whole set of instructions that happen when you play a card (or at other times, like Reaction instructions) for the card's ability (which is also used in several rulebooks). As such, Diplomat has two abilities, each consisting of several effects/instructions. If you want to use other terminology, fine, but then explain it to me, and then explain what you mean by differentiating between instructions and effects.

As Donald says above, a Way is something an Action card can do when played.

Donald just said you do what the Way says instead of what the Action says, which is the same phrasing that exists in the game (rulebooks, Enchantress's card text). It doesn't say that the Action card's effects, ability or instructions have now changed.

Ingix quoted you the text from the rule book that implies this and you dismissed it out of hand for no readily apparent reason.

I wrote why I dismissed it. Have you missed all those times people have asked why something in a rulebook isn't describing some corner case in a technically accurate way? Donald always answers that the rulebooks are written to be understandable by humans for the general cases. "Play it do what the Way says" is not specific and doesn't tell us one way or the other. You play the Action card, and as a result of that you do the Way, and that's what it says in short form.

Compare the interpretation of the word "this" on a Way. "Return this to its pile" on Way of the Horse doesn't mean you return Way of the Horse to its pile.

True, and this is why that is not accurate without a special rule. You need a rule to say that it actually applies to the Action card, not the Way card. On all other cards, including Landmarks, "this" means the card itself.

I don't understand your reasoning here at all. Given that Ways work exactly as Donald said now, that means that the "Tracking for the former shapeshifters" rule applies to the Action card played according to the Way of the Mouse. I play Necropolis, Necropolis plays Fishing Village, and so Necropolis stays in play.

I think I replied to this above in this post. Also, I think it would be helpful if you instead went back in the thread and replied to the arguments I made (or my responses to the people disagreeing), so I don't have to keep repeating this stuff.

Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2020, 08:10:18 pm »
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I realized that this is not only a problem of Way of the Mouse and Durations. It's also about Way of the Chameleon and Durations. So a special rule about Way of the Mouse doesn't cut it. With Way of the Chameleon you can play Durations (or Throne Rooms on Durations) without following any of the card's instructions that make it stay in play, but it still stays in play.

So this is a more general inconsistency with Ways and Durations. It seems like we must somehow say that Ways/Enchantress make us follow the card's instructions in one way (for Duration rules) but not in another way (for Ways/Enchantress rules). Other posters have suggested something like this before. I'll start with some definitions.

The card's play ability (PA): the effects you follow when you play it
Effect: individual instruction ("+1 Action", "trash a card", "gain a card", etc.)

Can we say that resolving an Enchanted/Wayed card entails resolving Duration effects and at the same time say that it does not entail resolving the PA's effects?

The card's PA contains a number of (printed) effects, but you can end up resolving only some of those effects. For instance with Snowy Village, or your -1 Card token, or Trader(1E)/Possession.

Let's say it still counts as resolving the card's PA even if some or all of its effects are not resolved.

With Ways/Enchantress we know that all the effects are canceled. We also know that you are following the Way's/Enchantress's effects, not the effects of the card's PA. We know this since Ways/Enchantress would work if you were still following the card's effects, and they don't. (That is, you can't apply a Way/Enchantress on a card when you're already applying one.) So you're resolving an empty shell of a PA, containing no effects. You do resolve effects in the middle of resolving the PA, but they are not (cannot be) the PA's effects.

The rules say that a card can stay in play in Clean-up either for being a Duration that sets up a future ability, or (according to some specifications) for playing a Duration. In both cases we're talking about effects of the card's PA.

How can it be the card's PA that causes these effects when they are not part of the card's PA?

We can look at Lantern, which triggers when we are resolving Border Guard's "reveal" and "discard" effects. Even with Way of the Chameleon resolving the exact same effects that are printed on Border Guard, Lantern doesn't trigger. They're not Border Guard's effects anymore.

We can also compare with playing Ironworks, choosing an Estate, and using Trader(1E)/Possession to instead gain a Silver. "Gain a Silver" does not insert itself as an effect in Ironworks's PA. The "gain a card costing up to $4" effect is just canceled. (Otherwise Ironworks would give you +$1.)

Can we say that resolving the card's PA now entails resolving the other (the Way's/Enchantress's) effects? (This way at least the card's PA as a whole somehow causes the Duration effect.) But what does this really mean? If resolving the PA consists of resolving the other effects, this would - per definition of what "play ability" means - mean that the PA consists of the other effects. This is exactly what we can't have.

The answer to my original question has to be no. We can't say that resolving the card's PA entails resolving Duration effects and at the same time say that it does not entail resolving the PA's effects.

We could say that a Duration stays if a future ability is set up during the resolution of its PA. It would not be the resolution of the PA that sets anything up, but something else that happens during it. This would solve the inconsistency, but is an extremely unsatisfactory re-interpretation of the Duration rules. It would be a rule that is at odds with how interrupting effects normally work in Dominion (as in the Lantern and the Trader example).

It would be better to say that there is a special rule about Durations for Ways. (Enchantress doesn't need it.) When a Way resolves an effect that would cause it to stay in play, the played card stays instead. (The special Way of the Mouse rule would then not be needed in addition.)

At least I can't find any way to solve this inconsistency without a rule like that.

Donald X.

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2020, 12:58:37 pm »
+1

Can you state your question in a simple form, where it's, this is the situation in a game, what happens? My brain refuses to read all that cryptic text. I've given it a few tries.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2020, 01:18:59 pm »
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Can you state your question in a simple form, where it's, this is the situation in a game, what happens? My brain refuses to read all that cryptic text. I've given it a few tries.

It was not a question about what happens, since I already know:

Play a Wharf using Way of the Chameleon: The Wharf stays in play.
(Or play a Throne Room using Way of the Chameleon and play a Wharf: The TR stays.)

You're Enchanted. Play a Chapel using Way of the Chameleon: You can't choose to get +$1 and +1 Action.
(Or play a Chapel using both Otter and Chameleon: You can't choose to get +$2.)

That what just me trying to figure out how both of those things can be consistent. In the first case, the effects are still done by the Wharf. But in the second case, the effects are not done by the Chapel. The only way I could make it make sense, is with a special rule about Ways and Durations.

GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2020, 01:45:59 pm »
+1

But in the second case, the effects are not done by the Chapel.

This is the part where I don't feel it's right. When your opponent played Enchantress; playing Chapel is still what caused you to get +1 card +1 action. I'm not sure Dominion ever makes a clear rules distinction between "playing card X causes Y to happen" and "card X is the thing that is doing thing Y".
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2020, 02:03:01 pm »
0

But in the second case, the effects are not done by the Chapel.

This is the part where I don't feel it's right. When your opponent played Enchantress; playing Chapel is still what caused you to get +1 card +1 action. I'm not sure Dominion ever makes a clear rules distinction between "playing card X causes Y to happen" and "card X is the thing that is doing thing Y".

Yes, it does. See my Kiln and Royal Carriage examples. Both those are caused by playing the card. This is why we have to look at the effects of the play ability of the card (not just the effects of playing the card) to arrive at anything useful here. Hence my long post. I actually started off in my reasoning trying to arrive at a conclusion like the one you're advocating, but I was not able to reach one that makes sense.

EDIT: Maybe you could challenge the parts of my long post where you think I'm mistaken.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:05:24 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2020, 02:43:48 pm »
+1

I think I agree with what AJD was saying, and disagree with your definition of "effect".

It's not the Action card's instructions that make us play the Duration. But it is the Action card's effect.

Effect: individual instruction ("+1 Action", "trash a card", "gain a card", etc.)

I think normally the effects that a card has are the same as that card's instructions. But when using Enchantress or Ways, the effects are a different set of instructions instead. So normally you play Chapel, and it causes you follow its own instructions. But if you play Chapel with Enchantress, then it causes you to follow Enchantress's instructions instead. If you play Wharf with Chameleon; playing Wharf causes you to follow Chameleon's instructions.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2020, 03:44:44 pm »
0

I think I agree with what AJD was saying, and disagree with your definition of "effect".

It's not the Action card's instructions that make us play the Duration. But it is the Action card's effect.

Effect: individual instruction ("+1 Action", "trash a card", "gain a card", etc.)

I think normally the effects that a card has are the same as that card's instructions. But when using Enchantress or Ways, the effects are a different set of instructions instead. So normally you play Chapel, and it causes you follow its own instructions. But if you play Chapel with Enchantress, then it causes you to follow Enchantress's instructions instead. If you play Wharf with Chameleon; playing Wharf causes you to follow Chameleon's instructions.

Yes, I'm using effect as synonymous to instruction: You can substitute "instruction" for "effect" in my post. As I said to him, you can use other definitions if that is more useful to you. But of course it complicates stuff. It sounds like you're introducing a new concept which you call "effect".

I guess you're saying that Enchantress/Ways substitute the card's effects while leaving its instructions intact? But you haven't defined exactly what an effect is. You need to define exactly what is the difference between your concepts of "instruction" and "effect". It sounds like you're saying that the card has two play abilities (sets of instructions), one that can't be replaced by Enchantress/Way, and one that can. To me this is a very strange concept that I see no basis for. Also if the card has "effects" that can be changed but still counts as the card's effects, this seems an awful lot like shape-shifting.

But okay, let's say that the card has two play abilities: I (instructions) and E (effects). Per default they are the same. But then Way/Enchantress replaces E on the card, but keeps I intact.  Duration rules follow E, so that works as we want. But what about Ways/Enchantress applied on a Wayed/Enchanted card? They simply replace E. Why wouldn't they work now?

Also, the card says that Enchantress replaces the instructions, not the effects, so this terminology seems confusing.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 03:49:31 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2020, 04:04:00 pm »
+1

I think I agree with what AJD was saying, and disagree with your definition of "effect".

It's not the Action card's instructions that make us play the Duration. But it is the Action card's effect.

Effect: individual instruction ("+1 Action", "trash a card", "gain a card", etc.)

I think normally the effects that a card has are the same as that card's instructions. But when using Enchantress or Ways, the effects are a different set of instructions instead. So normally you play Chapel, and it causes you follow its own instructions. But if you play Chapel with Enchantress, then it causes you to follow Enchantress's instructions instead. If you play Wharf with Chameleon; playing Wharf causes you to follow Chameleon's instructions.

Yes, I'm using effect as synonymous to instruction: You can substitute "instruction" for "effect" in my post. As I said to him, you can use other definitions if that is more useful to you. But of course it complicates stuff. It sounds like you're introducing a new concept which you call "effect".

I guess you're saying that Enchantress/Ways substitute the card's effects while leaving its instructions intact? But you haven't defined exactly what an effect is. You need to define exactly what is the difference between your concepts of "instruction" and "effect". It sounds like you're saying that the card has two play abilities (sets of instructions), one that can't be replaced by Enchantress/Way, and one that can. To me this is a very strange concept that I see no basis for. Also if the card has "effects" that can be changed but still counts as the card's effects, this seems an awful lot like shape-shifting.

But okay, let's say that the card has two play abilities: I (instructions) and E (effects). Per default they are the same. But then Way/Enchantress replaces E on the card, but keeps I intact.  Duration rules follow E, so that works as we want. But what about Ways/Enchantress applied on a Wayed/Enchanted card? They simply replace E. Why wouldn't they work now?

Also, the card says that Enchantress replaces the instructions, not the effects, so this terminology seems confusing.

I would define "effect" as "the list of things you do when you play a card". Normally, a card's "effect" is "follow this card's instructions. But in the case of Enchantress, the "effect" instead becomes "follow that instruction from Enchantress".
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2020, 05:12:00 pm »
0

I would define "effect" as "the list of things you do when you play a card". Normally, a card's "effect" is "follow this card's instructions. But in the case of Enchantress, the "effect" instead becomes "follow that instruction from Enchantress".

Well, then it's a semantics thing. This is exactly what I call "play ability". So the simplest is that we go back to the definitions I used, and you can just think that "play ability" (PA) is what you call "effect", and "effect" is what you call "instruction". You could read my long post based on that.

So then this is what you wrote:

Quote
I think normally the PA that a card has is the same as that card's effects. But when using Enchantress or Ways, the PA is a different set of effects instead. So normally you play Chapel, and it causes you follow its own effects. But if you play Chapel with Enchantress, then it causes you to follow Enchantress's effects instead. If you play Wharf with Chameleon; playing Wharf causes you to follow Chameleon's effects.

So you're saying that when you're following Enchantress effects, those effects are now the card's PA. As I said in my previous post, this works well for Duration rules, but not for Way applied on Enchanted card. If the effects of the PA are now changed but still in the card's PA, why can't they be changed again? That's exactly what Way/Enchantress change: the effects of the card's PA. (Also, the concept seems like shape-shifting.)

Note that the above paragraph is exactly what I said in my previous post, then using your terms, which you didn't reply to.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:17:49 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2020, 06:36:02 pm »
+1

They can’t be changed again because enchantress/ways can only happen when you are following a card's instructions, and once you invoke Enchantress/ways, you are no longer following the card's instructions.

This follows the basic replacement effect concept from MTG. Once you replace an event, it no longer happens, so you can’t replace it again. Enchantress replaces following a card’s instructions, so you can only use it when you would otherwise be following a card's instructions.

Edit to pre-empt your likely next question... you can’t use Enchantress/Ways when doing Chameleon's “follow this card's instructions” text because both Enchantress/Ways only apply to the “normal” instruction-following that happens as a result of playing a card. Enchantress covers this by saying that it applies to “the first time each other player plays an action card” and it’s covered by Ways simply by the rule of when you can use a Way (whether explicitly written in the rulebook or derived from the Chameleon+another way ruling). You can’t use them any time you are following instructions, you can only use them if following instruction as the normal, result of playing a card.

I believe I said all that same stuff before in another thread; don’t remember where it went.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 06:44:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2020, 07:11:05 pm »
0

They can’t be changed again because enchantress/ways can only happen when you are following a card's instructions, and once you invoke Enchantress/ways, you are no longer following the card's instructions.

This follows the basic replacement effect concept from MTG. Once you replace an event, it no longer happens, so you can’t replace it again. Enchantress replaces following a card’s instructions, so you can only use it when you would otherwise be following a card's instructions.

Edit to pre-empt your likely next question... you can’t use Enchantress/Ways when doing Chameleon's “follow this card's instructions” text because both Enchantress/Ways only apply to the “normal” instruction-following that happens as a result of playing a card. Enchantress covers this by saying that it applies to “the first time each other player plays an action card” and it’s covered by Ways simply by the rule of when you can use a Way (whether explicitly written in the rulebook or derived from the Chameleon+another way ruling). You can’t use them any time you are following instructions, you can only use them if following instruction as the normal, result of playing a card.

I believe I said all that same stuff before in another thread; don’t remember where it went.

I think we have to keep to the same terms here, or it's not going anywhere. With Enchantress/Ways, you are no longer following the card's effects, but you are following the card's PA, right? So what are Enchantress/Ways replacing? Isn't it the effects in the card's PA? This is going in circles unless you start responding to this.

But you are saying "normal" instructions/effects. So I think you are now again saying that there are two PAs. One "normal" (N) and one that can be replaced (R). If Enchantress/Ways replace R, they could replace R again. The only way it can work is if Enchantress/Ways actually compare R with N, and only replace R if R=N.

Despite what you say, this is not suggested by any card text or rule. "The first time" on Enchantress only means that it doesn't apply to the next Action card played. That could be the same card or another card. What you're saying about Chameleon is a circular argument. EDIT: Also, to be clear, you can use them at any time you're following a PA, but they will sometimes fail. The question is why they fail.

The problem with this is twofold:
1) The card's PA can change without it being shape-shifting. This goes against all precedent, compare with Lantern and the Trader(1E) examples.
2) The card has two PAs at all times.

The rules simply say to follow other effects INSTEAD OF the card's effects. It does not say that these other effects are now the card's effects at the same time as the card's "normal" effects are somehow preserved.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:22:29 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2020, 07:35:57 pm »
0

Found my other post I was thinking of: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20228.msg828643#msg828643

Anyway..

Quote
With Enchantress/Ways, you are no longer following the card's effects, but you are following the card's PA, right? So what are Enchantress/Ways replacing? Isn't it the effects in the card's PA? This is going in circles unless you start responding to this.

You are following the cards PA in a modified way. The normal effects are still there but you aren’t following them like you normally would. You are following a different set of effects instead. I guess this is the same thing as saying that the effects have been replaced, yes.

Quote
But you are saying "normal" instructions/effects. So I think you are now again saying that there are two PAs. One "normal" (N) and one that can be replaced (R). If Enchantress/Ways replace R, they could replace R again. The only way it can work is if Enchantress/Ways actually compare R with N, and only replace R if R=N.

I’m not sure if I’m understanding you here. I’m just referring to the “normal PA” as the thing that exists due to the base game rulebook. The thing that says that when you play a card, you follow its instructions. Enchantress overrides that rule with a new rule. So “N” doesn’t matter anymore, only “R” is in effect. I don’t think there’s any comparing R to N here; I’m stating flat-out that Enchantress and Ways only affect N.

Quote
Despite what you say, this is not suggested by any card text or rule.

This may be the core of our disagreement. I think it is suggested both by the rules wording where Enchantress and Ways both refer to them applying at a time that you are playing a card (which I am taking to mean the initial act of playing the card; not the entire window of time that the card is being played), and also deriving it from Donald's rulings on not being allowed to use multiple Ways.

It may be circular, but I’m starting with the assumption that Donald's rulings are correct, and coming up with what I see as a consistent explanation as to why. Yes the text could be interpreted differently, to conclude that you can apply multiple Ways to a single play of a card. But we’ve been told that such an interpretation is incorrect.

Quote
The card's PA can change without it being shape-shifting. This goes against all precedent, compare with Lantern and the Trader(1E) examples.

I can’t see any possible interpretation of a Way that doesn’t involve a card's PA changing. The rules tell of very clearly that a card's PA is to follow its instructions, and yet the Menagerie rules tell of very clearly that if you choose to use a Way, then that isn’t the PA that happens. So of course the PA has to change. How do you avoid following a card's instructions without saying that the PA has changed?

Lantern was discussed at length separately, and I’m still pretty convinced that Lantern 2e doesn’t solve the problem Donald was trying to solve; it only works because it’s been ruled that it does.
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AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2020, 07:59:27 pm »
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I think we have to keep to the same terms here, or it's not going anywhere.

This is true; in that case, please use the term "instructions" in the way Gendo and I have been using it, since that term is actually used in-game.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2020, 08:01:46 pm »
+1

I think we have to keep to the same terms here, or it's not going anywhere.

This is true; in that case, please use the term "instructions" in the way Gendo and I have been using it, since that term is actually used in-game.

This is a good point; Enchantress specifically says “instead of following its instructions”,  not “instead of receiving its effects”.
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