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Author Topic: Durable Mouse  (Read 6017 times)

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AJD

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Durable Mouse
« on: March 18, 2020, 01:13:03 pm »
+3

If I play Necropolis according to the Way of the Mouse, and the way of the mouse is to play, say, Fishing Village, does the Necropolis stay in play through the next turn?
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scolapasta

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 01:25:36 pm »
+1

If I play Necropolis according to the Way of the Mouse, and the way of the mouse is to play, say, Fishing Village, does the Necropolis stay in play through the next turn?

This should work just like Band of Misfits playing a Duration; in other words, yes.
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crj

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 01:26:11 pm »
0

Hmm. I wonder why Way of the Mouse doesn't say "non-Duration"?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 01:47:16 pm »
0

If I play Necropolis according to the Way of the Mouse, and the way of the mouse is to play, say, Fishing Village, does the Necropolis stay in play through the next turn?

This should work just like Band of Misfits playing a Duration; in other words, yes.

No, because Band of Misfits is a Command card; and Command cards have special rules dealing with how to handle them playing Durations.

Way of the Mouse playing a Duration seems more like Vassal playing a Duration, so it wouldn't stay in play.

*Edit* Crossing that out because it's bad to have false info in a rules thread. The staying out rule applies not just to Command, but to cards that play cards while leaving them there.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 02:49:47 pm by GendoIkari »
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scolapasta

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 02:04:45 pm »
0

If I play Necropolis according to the Way of the Mouse, and the way of the mouse is to play, say, Fishing Village, does the Necropolis stay in play through the next turn?

This should work just like Band of Misfits playing a Duration; in other words, yes.

No, because Band of Misfits is a Command card; and Command cards have special rules dealing with how to handle them playing Durations.

Way of the Mouse playing a Duration seems more like Vassal playing a Duration, so it wouldn't stay in play.

The "leaving it there" clause is what led me to believe it would behave like BoM (and other Command cards that can play Duration cards). That that rule exists for tracking purposes, so would apply here. While on the other hand, Vassal doesn't have this tracking issue as it puts the card into play (i.e. the played card tracks itself).

Also, the alternative would lead to some weird cases: If I play BoM as Way of the Mouse, since it has the Command type, it would stay out. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 02:42:58 pm by scolapasta »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 02:48:57 pm »
+4

If I play Necropolis according to the Way of the Mouse, and the way of the mouse is to play, say, Fishing Village, does the Necropolis stay in play through the next turn?

This should work just like Band of Misfits playing a Duration; in other words, yes.

No, because Band of Misfits is a Command card; and Command cards have special rules dealing with how to handle them playing Durations.

Way of the Mouse playing a Duration seems more like Vassal playing a Duration, so it wouldn't stay in play.

The "leaving it there" clause is what led me to believe it would behave like BoM (and other Command cards that can play Duration cards). That that rule exists for tracking purposes, so would apply here. While on the other hand, Vassal doesn't have this tracking issue as it puts the card into play (i.e. the played card tracks itself).

Also, the alternative would lead to some weird cases: If I play BoM as Way of the Mouse, since it has the Command type, it would stay out.

I was wrong; in errata thread Donald said "These rules apply to all of the cards that play cards without putting them into play", which includes Necromancer and Inherited Estates; which aren't command cards.

So yes, if Mouse plays a Duration card, the card that was Mouse'd should stay in play until the Duration would normally be discarded.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 06:57:19 pm »
0

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. You didn't use Necropolis's ability to play Fishing Village. In other words, playing Necropolis didn't cause the Fishing Village to be played. Way of the Mouse is what caused it. It's like when you play a Smithy after having played Kiln: The Kiln triggers. You played Smithy but it was the Kiln that caused you to gain another Smithy.

Compare with Enchantress. When you play an Enchanted Necropolis, it's not Necropolis that gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. If it were Necropolis, a Way could still be used. For instance, Way of the Chameleon could replace it with +$1/+1 Action. That doesn't happen, because we're not following Necropolis's ability.

EDIT: Also, the Menagerie rulebook doesn't have this rule. Donald has said it would be included in future rulebooks for BoM, Overlord, Inheritance and Necromancer.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 07:05:16 pm by Jeebus »
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Chris is me

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020, 03:00:42 am »
+3

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. You didn't use Necropolis's ability to play Fishing Village. In other words, playing Necropolis didn't cause the Fishing Village to be played. Way of the Mouse is what caused it. It's like when you play a Smithy after having played Kiln: The Kiln triggers. You played Smithy but it was the Kiln that caused you to gain another Smithy.

I don't think this interpretation is really how ways work. Ways are not things that are played by other Actions - ways are a, uh, way you can play an action. If you play a Necropolis using a Way ability, it is Necropolis doing the effects outlined on the Way, not some abstract summoned non-card. Ways aren't a "thing", they're more or less a rule change - this is one of the things that playing an action can do this game.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2020, 10:52:17 am »
0

Compare with Enchantress. When you play an Enchanted Necropolis, it's not Necropolis that gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. If it were Necropolis, a Way could still be used. For instance, Way of the Chameleon could replace it with +$1/+1 Action. That doesn't happen, because we're not following Necropolis's ability.

Is the underlined sentence intended or just not proper formulated? For me it suggests an enchanted Action can't use a Way. Or is my learning of Way as escape instead Enchantress wrong?
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2020, 12:11:38 pm »
0

Compare with Enchantress. When you play an Enchanted Necropolis, it's not Necropolis that gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. If it were Necropolis, a Way could still be used. For instance, Way of the Chameleon could replace it with +$1/+1 Action. That doesn't happen, because we're not following Necropolis's ability.

Is the underlined sentence intended or just not proper formulated? For me it suggests an enchanted Action can't use a Way. Or is my learning of Way as escape instead Enchantress wrong?

I'm pretty sure it's correct. The thing is you can't choose to apply Enchantress and then apply a Way (like in the example I gave with Chameleon). Likewise you can't choose to apply a Way and then apply Enchantress. If you apply one first, the other doesn't work. That's how you can "use a Way instead of being Enchanted". Donald explains it here.

Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2020, 12:13:00 pm »
0

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder if this is really true. You didn't use Necropolis's ability to play Fishing Village. In other words, playing Necropolis didn't cause the Fishing Village to be played. Way of the Mouse is what caused it. It's like when you play a Smithy after having played Kiln: The Kiln triggers. You played Smithy but it was the Kiln that caused you to gain another Smithy.

I don't think this interpretation is really how ways work. Ways are not things that are played by other Actions - ways are a, uh, way you can play an action. If you play a Necropolis using a Way ability, it is Necropolis doing the effects outlined on the Way, not some abstract summoned non-card. Ways aren't a "thing", they're more or less a rule change - this is one of the things that playing an action can do this game.

Well, we know that Ways work exactly like Enchantress. Certainly the Action card doesn't play the Enchantress, and it doesn't play the Way, that much is clear. But that doesn't mean that the card is the thing doing the Enchantress effects or the Way effects. Remember that the card does not "shapeshift" - its play ability doesn't change. Playing a card with Enchantress or a Way doesn't change whether it's a Treasure for Capitalism for instance. Also see my example with Enchantress and Way of the Chameleon, which is relevant precisely because Ways work exactly like Enchantress.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:16:30 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2020, 01:04:31 pm »
0

Compare with Enchantress. When you play an Enchanted Necropolis, it's not Necropolis that gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. If it were Necropolis, a Way could still be used. For instance, Way of the Chameleon could replace it with +$1/+1 Action. That doesn't happen, because we're not following Necropolis's ability.

Is the underlined sentence intended or just not proper formulated? For me it suggests an enchanted Action can't use a Way. Or is my learning of Way as escape instead Enchantress wrong?

I'm pretty sure it's correct. The thing is you can't choose to apply Enchantress and then apply a Way (like in the example I gave with Chameleon). Likewise you can't choose to apply a Way and then apply Enchantress. If you apply one first, the other doesn't work. That's how you can "use a Way instead of being Enchanted". Donald explains it here.

As written it sounded like you were saying that if your opponent had played Enchantress; then you couldn't play Necropolis using a Way instead of getting +1 card +1 action.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2020, 01:30:50 pm »
0

As written it sounded like you were saying that if your opponent had played Enchantress; then you couldn't play Necropolis using a Way instead of getting +1 card +1 action.

I meant if you apply "+1 Card/+1 Action" from Enchantress. In that case it's not Necropolis that gives you "+1 Card/+1 Action", so you can't use a Way to replace that, such as Way of the Chameleon. If you instead choose to apply a Way, well then Enchantress never does anything. The "pig" symbol in Dominion Online is helpful, but it's a bit misleading for understanding how the timing actually works: if you apply a Way first, no card is ever Enchanted.

Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2020, 03:03:19 pm »
0

Ok, here's another way of saying it.

(1) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration before resolving the played card. (Diplomat, Kiln...)
(2) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration instead of resolving the played card. (Way of the Mouse, Enchantress...)
(3) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration after resolving the played card. (Royal Carriage, Citadel...)


Obviously (1) and (3) wouldn't cause the Action card to stay in play. Why does (2)?

GendoIkari

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2020, 06:16:26 pm »
+1

Ok, here's another way of saying it.

(1) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration before resolving the played card. (Diplomat, Kiln...)
(2) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration instead of resolving the played card. (Way of the Mouse, Enchantress...)
(3) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration after resolving the played card. (Royal Carriage, Citadel...)


Obviously (1) and (3) wouldn't cause the Action card to stay in play. Why does (2)?

Because I don't think #2 is "instead of resolving the played card". I think it's "the played card is resolved in this way instead".

Now that might go against your instinct of why you can't use both Enchantress and Chameleon; but isn't that resolved by a simple rule saying that a card's play effects can't be modified again after they've already been modified? That sounds like the best explanation to me as to why you can't use both Enchantress and Chameleon.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 06:18:10 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2020, 08:23:24 pm »
0

Ok, here's another way of saying it.

(1) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration before resolving the played card. (Diplomat, Kiln...)
(2) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration instead of resolving the played card. (Way of the Mouse, Enchantress...)
(3) When you play an Action card, play the set-aside Duration after resolving the played card. (Royal Carriage, Citadel...)


Obviously (1) and (3) wouldn't cause the Action card to stay in play. Why does (2)?

Because I don't think #2 is "instead of resolving the played card". I think it's "the played card is resolved in this way instead".

Now that might go against your instinct of why you can't use both Enchantress and Chameleon; but isn't that resolved by a simple rule saying that a card's play effects can't be modified again after they've already been modified? That sounds like the best explanation to me as to why you can't use both Enchantress and Chameleon.

So you're suggesting that resolving the Enchantress/Way effects counts as resolving the card's effects. Yeah, like you said, if that were the case you could replace those effects again (and Enchantress/Chameleon would not work as intended). I guess that special rule would fix it, but no such rule has ever been stated, and Donald's explanation doesn't seem to support it.

Now, if you really wanted Way of the Mouse to behave this way, you could make a special rule for Way of the Mouse and Durations. But again, if this was the intended behavior, why isn't it mentioned in the Menagerie rulebook, as it apparently will be for Band of Misfits and those other cards?

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2020, 02:49:01 am »
+1

Jeebus wrote:

Quote
But that doesn't mean that the card is the thing doing the Enchantress effects or the Way effects.

In my opinion this is exactly what happens. The card is doing the thing it normally doesn't. It doesn't change (gain/loose abilities), but the rules allow it to do things it noromally doesn't.


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AJD

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2020, 10:33:53 am »
+1

Way of the Chameleon specifically says "Follow this card's instructions"; the reason you can't chameleonize the enchantment of an enchanted card is because the +1 card / +1 action isn't "this card's instructions". Playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action, but it's not part of the card's instructions.
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Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2020, 10:43:40 am »
0

Jeebus wrote:

Quote
But that doesn't mean that the card is the thing doing the Enchantress effects or the Way effects.

In my opinion this is exactly what happens. The card is doing the thing it normally doesn't. It doesn't change (gain/loose abilities), but the rules allow it to do things it noromally doesn't.

To me that's a contradiction: A card's ability is what it does. It's like saying a card costs $3 without changing its cost. Maybe you can explain more what you mean. Remember that cards that change what they do, like old Inheritance, refer to abilities and are shapeshifters.

Jeebus

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2020, 10:51:52 am »
0

Way of the Chameleon specifically says "Follow this card's instructions"; the reason you can't chameleonize the enchantment of an enchanted card is because the +1 card / +1 action isn't "this card's instructions". Playing the enchanted card is what gives you +1 card / +1 action, but it's not part of the card's instructions.

The last sentence is what I don't agree with. Yes, it happens as a result of playing the card, but so does Kiln and Royal Carriage. You'd have to address what I've written about that.

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2020, 10:58:07 am »
0

Hopefully Donald will chime in at some point and tell us the intended behavior, so at least we don't have to speculate about that. The lack of this rule in the rulebook makes me think that it's not supposed to cover Way of the Mouse.

Donald X.

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2020, 04:19:29 pm »
+1

Hopefully Donald will chime in at some point and tell us the intended behavior, so at least we don't have to speculate about that. The lack of this rule in the rulebook makes me think that it's not supposed to cover Way of the Mouse.
I always hope it will somehow all resolve with me, maybe by Ingix saying what I've said somewhere.

The idea is to track effects that happen next turn, via cards in play. This is an excerpt from the current Dark Ages FAQ for Band of Misfits:

"Normally that means you'll discard it that turn, but if a Band of Misfits plays a Duration card (Duration cards are in other expansions), it will stay out like the Duration card would have, and if Band of Misfits plays a card like Throne Room that plays a Duration card twice, it will stay out in the same way the Throne Room would have."

Way of the Mouse should work the same way - if you play a Necropolis and use Way of the Mouse which plays Lighthouse, you should leave out the Necropolis, to track that something's supposed to happen next turn. We'll know what, there's nothing else it can be. The rulebook doesn't cover this because the rulebooks aren't perfect and also are snapshots of points in time.
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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2020, 04:20:01 pm »
+1

Quote
Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.

Emphasis mine, page 3 of the Menagerie rulebook. The card does what they Ways says.
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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2020, 06:20:20 pm »
0

Quote
Each Way gives Action cards an additional option: you can play the Action for what it normally does, or play it to do what the Way says to do.

Emphasis mine, page 3 of the Menagerie rulebook. The card does what they Ways says.

As I'm sure you know, the rulebooks don't generally contain language that is precise enough to be helpful in parsing this kind of thing.

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Re: Durable Mouse
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2020, 06:21:12 pm »
0

I always hope it will somehow all resolve with me, maybe by Ingix saying what I've said somewhere.

The idea is to track effects that happen next turn, via cards in play. This is an excerpt from the current Dark Ages FAQ for Band of Misfits:

"Normally that means you'll discard it that turn, but if a Band of Misfits plays a Duration card (Duration cards are in other expansions), it will stay out like the Duration card would have, and if Band of Misfits plays a card like Throne Room that plays a Duration card twice, it will stay out in the same way the Throne Room would have."

Way of the Mouse should work the same way - if you play a Necropolis and use Way of the Mouse which plays Lighthouse, you should leave out the Necropolis, to track that something's supposed to happen next turn. We'll know what, there's nothing else it can be. The rulebook doesn't cover this because the rulebooks aren't perfect and also are snapshots of points in time.

Thanks for saying the intended behavior. I thought the Menagerie rulebook was written after the 2019 errata, so that's why I really expected Way of the Mouse to include this like BoM will.

In any case, you haven't addressed the issue of how this behavior is possible of course, and I don't expect that you will. I've been taught by Dominion to read what the cards say and follow the rules, and that's what I'm doing. (Of course when it comes to certain interactions, the card texts sometimes don't describe exactly how the card technically works.) In this case I don't see how this Mouse behavior is consistent with an Enchanted and Chameleon'ed card not giving you +$1/+1 Action. So far nobody has made a convincing description of how it can be possible (except GendoIkari by including an extra, general rule which doesn't seem to exist). I guess for now we can say that it's a special ruling for Way of the Mouse in order to facilitate tracking.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 07:34:54 pm by Jeebus »
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