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Author Topic: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?  (Read 4903 times)

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GendoIkari

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Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« on: March 18, 2020, 11:51:19 am »
+6

Caravan Guard says (+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.

But now, it can matter. With Black Cat, Way of the Mouse, Diadem, and Storyteller or Black Market, you can do all sorts of crazy things when it isn't your turn, including playing a Diadem and buying a card while it isn't your turn.

So do you automatically always have 0 actions while it isn't your turn, making Diadem always worth ? Or, do cards you play that give +actions work normally? Caravan Guard is the only +action card that has that reminder text; one could even argue that Caravan Guard doesn't give an action, but other +action cards do.

And if it is possible to get +actions when it isn't your turn, I assume that you start every turn except your own with 0 actions?
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 12:02:10 pm »
+4

I've always interpreted that phrase on Caravan Guard to mean "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn".

Although if that is the case, that raises a whole new branch of questions. Do you, in fact, start turns that aren't yours with 0 actions? Do you start all turns with 1 action? Do you keep the number of actions you had at the end of your turn until you start your next turn?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 12:08:55 pm »
0

Checking out the second edition rulebook for base game:

Quote
In your Action phase, you can play one Action card from your hand.

This seems to be the closest it comes to saying something like "you start your turn with 1 action point."

Given that it says "your Action phase", I think it's safe to assume that the free 1 action only applies to your own turn. The most likely thing is that you start with 0 action points on all other turns.

In terms of carry over, I think it's pretty clear:

Quote
Any unused +Actions, unused +Buys, or unspent that
you had left are gone; you start each turn fresh.

Although the "you" here is really referring to the player whose turn it currently is; the same language is used when it says that you discard your cards from play, and yet we know from other rulings that this refers to all cards in play, not only cards played by the current player. So I think it's safe to assume that all players lose their unused buys, actions, and at the end of every turn.
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scolapasta

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 12:18:41 pm »
+3

Caravan Guard says (+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.

But now, it can matter. With Black Cat, Way of the Mouse, Diadem, and Storyteller or Black Market, you can do all sorts of crazy things when it isn't your turn, including playing a Diadem and buying a card while it isn't your turn.

So do you automatically always have 0 actions while it isn't your turn, making Diadem always worth ? Or, do cards you play that give +actions work normally? Caravan Guard is the only +action card that has that reminder text; one could even argue that Caravan Guard doesn't give an action, but other +action cards do.

And if it is possible to get +actions when it isn't your turn, I assume that you start every turn except your own with 0 actions?

This is a great question.

I hope it's ok, I'm going to map out to a specific example:

Player A buys a province.
Player B reacts with Black Cat, plays as Way of Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Village, playing it. (+2 Actions)
Player B then reacts with a 2nd Black Cat, plays as Way of Mouse - Vassal. Discards a Black Market, playing it.
Player B plays a Diadem.

Is Diadem worth $2 or $4?

And if earlier in other turn, Player B had reacted to an attack with a Caravan Guard, is Diadem worth $2, $4, or $5? (since Caravan Guars is the only one with the parenthetical)

(and this is all assuming you start with 0 actions on other players' turns, which I think is a fairly safe assumption)
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Donald X.

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 12:43:50 pm »
+9

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 01:11:54 pm »
+1

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?
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scolapasta

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 01:39:23 pm »
+1

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?

From the wiki: "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn." So other turns must be zero.

Which makes me wonder: could you choose to get this start of turn Action (or your start of turn Buy) after performing other start of turn events? (though I can't think of any current cards where it would be beneficial to make this choice)

So, play Ghost, reveal Black Market. At start of turn, play it, play Diadem and it is worth $3 ($2 + $1 for the Action). But could you choose to not have yet gotten the +1 Action, so it's only worth $2? Again, no practical reason, but imagine a hypothetical card: "+4 Cards. Discard a card per unused Action."

Edit: slightly modified my hypothetical card
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 01:47:34 pm by scolapasta »
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2020, 01:43:19 pm »
+1

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?

From the wiki: "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn." So other turns must be zero.

Which makes me wonder: could you choose to get this start of turn Action (or your start of turn Buy) after performing other start of turn events? (though I can't think of any current cards where it would be beneficial to make this choice)

So, play Ghost, reveal Black Market. At start of turn, play it, play Diadem and it is worth $3 ($2 + $1 for the Action). But could you choose to not have yet gotten the +1 Action, so it's only worth $2? Again, no practical reason, but imagine a hypothetical card: "+4 Cards. -$1 per unused Action."

I highly doubt this is implemented online since it currently makes no difference, but that is an interesting question; from the instructions, it does sound like "each player receives one Action at the start of their turn" would technically count as a start of turn event, meaning you can order it with other start of turn events.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2020, 01:46:09 pm »
+3

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?

From the wiki: "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn." So other turns must be zero.

Which makes me wonder: could you choose to get this start of turn Action (or your start of turn Buy) after performing other start of turn events? (though I can't think of any current cards where it would be beneficial to make this choice)

So, play Ghost, reveal Black Market. At start of turn, play it, play Diadem and it is worth $3 ($2 + $1 for the Action). But could you choose to not have yet gotten the +1 Action, so it's only worth $2? Again, no practical reason, but imagine a hypothetical card: "+4 Cards. -$1 per unused Action."

I highly doubt this is implemented online since it currently makes no difference, but that is an interesting question; from the instructions, it does sound like "each player receives one Action at the start of their turn" would technically count as a start of turn event, meaning you can order it with other start of turn events.

I think there's basically no chance that getting an action is a start-of-turn event. I think it's just the way the wiki is choosing to word "you start your turn with an action".
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crj

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2020, 03:26:06 pm »
+1

A while back I asked about this in the context of Diadem getting played at start of turn. The ruling was that you have your 1 action before anything else happens.
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Jeebus

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2020, 03:47:00 pm »
0

Caravan Guard says (+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.

Actually I think it was answered before, because it was ruled that +$1 (with +$1 token on Caravan Guard) lets you lose your -$1 token. If you can get +$1 on your turn, other pluses should work the same way.

GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2020, 03:50:46 pm »
0

Caravan Guard says (+1 Action has no effect if it's not your turn.)

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.

Actually I think it was answered before, because it was ruled that +$1 (with +$1 token on Caravan Guard) lets you lose your -$1 token. If you can get +$1 on your turn, other pluses should work the same way.

There was never a question about the + though. The question was only about +actions, and only because the text on Caravan Guard specifies that +action has no effect. If Caravan Guard didn't have that parenthetical, there would never be a question. But now we know what that text really means.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2020, 05:27:34 pm »
0

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?

From the wiki: "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn." So other turns must be zero.

"You start with 0 actions on other players' turns" does not follow logically from "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn". It may be implied, but it is not direct. I'd still like to get a ruling.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2020, 05:48:52 pm »
+1

It has been previously discussed whether that phrase means "you can't do anything with the extra action if it isn't your turn" or "you ignore the instruction to get +1 Action". I don't think the question was answered, as it never mattered.
You get +1 Action when it isn't your turn, but this doesn't empower you to play Actions. It can make Diadem better though in these ubiquitous situations.

And you start with 0 actions?

From the wiki: "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn." So other turns must be zero.

"You start with 0 actions on other players' turns" does not follow logically from "Each player receives one Action at the start of their turn". It may be implied, but it is not direct. I'd still like to get a ruling.

It doesn't logically follow from that rule, I agree. But it logically follows from the fact that there is no rule written anywhere that says you do start with any actions on other players' turns. The quoted rule is just because if there were such a rule, it should be in the same place as the quoted rule. Basically, "you get 1 action on other players' turns" is no different than "you get 3 actions on other players' turns" in terms of how much rulebook support there is for them.

I agree it would be nice to get an official answer. But I'd be very surprised if it were anything but 0.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2020, 06:37:02 pm »
0

Basically, "you get 1 action on other players' turns" is no different than "you get 3 actions on other players' turns" in terms of how much rulebook support there is for them.

"You get 0 actions on other players' turns" has exactly as much rulebook support as the other two. There was no rule previously because it could never matter before.

I agree that intuitively, 0 actions makes most sense. 1 action, for me, is close behind that in terms of intuition support. Beyond that, "actions aren't reset until your next turn" also has some intuition support, however small. 3 actions has no intuition support whatsoever. But we don't have anything right now except intuition support, and I think that even though 0 actions is more likely than 1 action, 1 action could also make a lot of sense.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2020, 07:20:59 pm »
+2

"You get 0 actions on other players' turns" has exactly as much rulebook support as the other two.

Touché. Although also “you start each turn with $0 to spend” has as much rulebook support as “you start each game with $1 to spend”. Or, “you start each game with 2 debt”. I think that for any resource, the default is always “you have 0 of this resource”. You only get the resource when a rule tells you to get it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2020, 07:22:59 pm »
+1

One way of looking at it is, it doesn't say anything about what happens with your Actions, Coins and Buys when your turn is over. It just says how many you have when your turn starts. So it follows that when it's not your turn, you keep whatever you had at the end of your turn, until you start your next turn.

Not saying this is more intuitive, but it could be the conclusion if we interpret literally what is said and not said. Actually, I think almost everybody would assume that you start every turn (when it's not your turn) with 0, and I hope that's the ruling.

GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2020, 07:27:19 pm »
+1

One way of looking at it is, it doesn't say anything about what happens with your Actions, Coins and Buys when your turn is over. It just says how many you have when your turn starts. So it follows that when it's not your turn, you keep whatever you had at the end of your turn, until you start your next turn.

Not saying this is more intuitive, but it could be the conclusion if we interpret literally what is said and not said. Actually, I think almost everybody would assume that you start every turn (when it's not your turn) with 0, and I hope that's the ruling.

If not for the rule that you discard your cards during other players' cleanup phase, I would agree.
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Donald X.

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2020, 11:42:51 pm »
+6

You start every turn with 0 Actions 0 Buys 0 coins.

This has not confused anyone in an actual game ever.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2020, 02:24:55 pm »
+4

You start every turn with 0 Actions 0 Buys 0 coins.


But how many Potions??

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Jeebus

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2020, 03:54:29 pm »
+2

You start every turn with 0 Actions 0 Buys 0 coins.


But how many Potions??

I've been rereading the whole Alchemy rulebook several times now, and my conclusion is that you start with 0 potions on your turns. But I still have no idea how many potions you start with on other players' turns.

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2020, 05:11:20 pm »
+2

You start every turn with 0 Actions 0 Buys 0 coins.


But how many Potions??

I've been rereading the whole Alchemy rulebook several times now, and my conclusion is that you start with 0 potions on your turns. But I still have no idea how many potions you start with on other players' turns.
You also have 0 potions.
You start every turn with 0 Actions 0 Buys 0 coins.


But how many Potions??


It's fun asking questions! The answer to this one is zero (zero $P that is - Potion is a card), which is also the number of other times this has come up in the years since Alchemy.
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Jeebus

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2020, 05:53:20 pm »
0

I just have to start including winking smileys.  :'(

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2020, 06:52:49 pm »
0

But now, it can matter. With Black Cat, Way of the Mouse, Diadem, and Storyteller or Black Market, you can do all sorts of crazy things when it isn't your turn, including playing a Diadem and buying a card while it isn't your turn.
Japanese players expand your fascinating idea and finally success to play any Action and Treasures between turns. Resolving Donate, trash a Catacomb to gain a Throne Room to which to react with a Sheepdog, using Way of the Mouse of Vassal, yes, play the Throne Room! You might have another Throne Room in your hand, nest it, play cards from hand! You can do almost anything between turns.

You could spend any Action/Coin/Potion (which you got during a turn) with Diadem/BM etc between turns unless you lost them until you end the turn. Do you lose at the end of turn either?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 07:36:57 pm by SSLY »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Can you get +actions when it isn't your turn?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2020, 07:03:43 pm »
+2

Hmm, this was probably answered before because it was possible before; but if you drain a third pile or Provinces during Donate trashing; does the game end? Or is it already passed the end-of-turn check for endgame; giving one last turn?
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