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Author Topic: Militia rule change  (Read 13375 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2020, 08:34:08 pm »
+1

Or Tunnel/Watchtower/Sewer/Catacombs/Blessed Village.

Minor issue: Isn't Theorel right that this combo doesn't raise the question? If you trash after discarding 1 card, you draw back up to 4, then discard again to Militia, ending up at 3 cards after having discarded 2. If you trash after discarding 2 cards, you draw back up to 3, and again there's no question. (We needed to draw more than 1 card.)

The situation/question is the first one... you discard Tunnel, trash Catacombs (now have 3 cards) then draw 1 for Sea's Gift, putting you back to 4. You say ďthen discard again to MilitiaĒ, but thatís exactly what the question is... do you have to discard again to Militia or not? Yes because Militia's discard hasnít finished until you finished everything and drew back up to 4? Or no because you did at some point in all of that get down to 3 cards,  and then drew another one after? Itís the same basic question as Village Green, just with a lot more pieces needed to trigger the card draw as part of discarding.

It's not the exact same question though, because it's not discarding to Militia that gets you to 3. With Village Green the question is whether Militia is satisfied after making you discard a card that gets you to 3, so it's enough that Militia is checking after each discard effect. In your scenario, Militia would be continually checking. To me, "discard cards until you have 3" is equivalent to "do this until you have 3: discard a card", which means Militia checks after each card discarded.

I would still think that the end ruling would have to match either situation, even if that specific difference does exist... the question was basically always whether Militia checks continually or only after each discard. if Militia only checks after each time you do a discard (which might come with some various other things that happened as part of that discard), then you have to discard again. If Militia continually checks, then donít. I agree with you that checking after each discard is more natural.

The only way there is a difference in effect is if the rule is that Militia checks after each discard, but before all of the things that are included with that discard, but that seems stranger.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 08:35:43 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2020, 08:35:11 pm »
0

I think the bigger issue with one-at-a-time is that if that's the rule, then you need another rule about how to handle Village Green. Or Tunnel/Watchtower/Sewer/Catacombs/Blessed Village. And either option you choose for that one seems equally confusing (either people assume that they've already been at 3 cards, so they shouldn't have to keep discarded. Or people assume that they didn't yet finish dealing with Militia until they got back up to 4 cards, so they should have to keep discarding).
While we can set up a scenario where you Militia and I have Village Green and want the card right now, in practice it's not a thing. No-one gets confused because no-one wants the card then. So, that potential confusion shouldn't be a deciding factor in how the situation actually plays out.

In general we want the most clear intuitive thing for the vast number of cases of using the cards, and can have a rulebook or online FAQ for obscure situations.

A more likely scenario could be that Village Green has your +1 card token on it. Then we have the same question even if you donít choose to use it now for some reason.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2020, 09:07:58 pm »
+1

I would still think that the end ruling would have to match either situation, even if that specific difference does exist... the question was basically always whether Militia checks continually or only after each discard. if Militia only checks after each time you do a discard (which might come with some various other things that happened as part of that discard), then you have to discard again. If Militia continually checks, then donít. I agree with you that checking after each discard is more natural.

The only way there is a difference in effect is if the rule is that Militia checks after each discard, but before all of the things that are included with that discard, but that seems stranger.

Yes, that was the way I was thinking about it, and the reason I saw a difference between the two scenarious. But I agree that it would be a very strange interpretation, which is why I rejected it and agreed with Hhelibebcnofnena that one-at-a-time means that you discard down to 3 in the end.

But I see now that another way to see it would be that Militia is continually checking. But yeah, I don't really see any good reason for interpreting it that way either.

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2020, 09:56:40 pm »
0

However, over the years, everyone has always thought that Militia was affected by that rule about revealed discards. So even "not changing" this changes it.

Was that true before the online implementation started doing it that way? Just curious; I was a fan, but not part of the community, when that was the case. Anyway, that thought might change if the online version changed to reflect one-at-a-time Militia.

Also, with this tentative changed ruling, does the Watchtower-Tunnel thing not work anymore? Because I don't think the Village Green stop-discarding thing and the Tunnel-Watchtower thing can both work.
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Donald X.

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2020, 11:28:58 pm »
+2

However, over the years, everyone has always thought that Militia was affected by that rule about revealed discards. So even "not changing" this changes it.

Was that true before the online implementation started doing it that way? Just curious; I was a fan, but not part of the community, when that was the case. Anyway, that thought might change if the online version changed to reflect one-at-a-time Militia.
I have not done a formal poll; feel free. Me, being me, I always felt like you didn't get to see both cards. The people around me, maybe they picked it up from me or came to me with it, dunno.

Also, with this tentative changed ruling, does the Watchtower-Tunnel thing not work anymore? Because I don't think the Village Green stop-discarding thing and the Tunnel-Watchtower thing can both work.
I don't feel like I attached the "tentative ruling" sticker yet.

I feel like a say this a lot, but, as usual, what I especially care about are:
- How things work in common real-life situations.
- Having intuitive rulings.
- Matching the rulebooks and card text.
- Having an answer for what happens in exotic scenarios, that can be worked out by the people who need to do this.

And I do not so much care about:
- What exactly happens in exotic scenarios.

A big question here is, for the people who never go online to talk about these things, do they think Militia is one at a time or all at once? I don't care how that makes Village Green or Tunnel play out; there will be an answer and that's good enough.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2020, 11:47:16 pm »
0

A big question here is, for the people who never go online to talk about these things, do they think Militia is one at a time or all at once? I don't care how that makes Village Green or Tunnel play out; there will be an answer and that's good enough.

Unfortunately that may depend on if theyíve read the Militia FAQ in the rulebook. From just the words on the card, I feel like itís all at once. From the words in the FAQ, I feel like itís one at a time.

I can say for sure that in practice, for in person games, probably no one plays it as one at a time. If my opponent plays Militia, I take a Copper and Estate from my hand and put them both in the discard pile. Maybe rarely if I have only 1 junk card, I might put that in the discard and continue to think about what other non-junk to discard. But rarely. In fact, I think in the one-junk scenario, Iím more likely to make sure I secretly hide my non-junk under the junk as I discard them both together, to keep information from my opponent in case it matters. Perhaps Iím breaking an existing rule there.

Of course, it might not matter how people physically do that IRL, because hey, people also play all their treasures at the same time IRL, even though we know for sure that they are getting played one at a time by the rules.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:49:23 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2020, 12:44:24 am »
0

Yeah, what people physically do when they discard for Militia doesn't matter at all. What matters is how they think it works with Tunnel/Watchtower and with Village Green. Those are the two (known) situations where the rule matters at all.

What the rulebook says matters, what the card says matters, and what has been ruled online in the past matters. The more discrepancy between those three things (plus any new ruling), the more confusion.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 12:45:31 am by Jeebus »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2020, 12:45:42 am »
0

Also, with this tentative changed ruling, does the Watchtower-Tunnel thing not work anymore? Because I don't think the Village Green stop-discarding thing and the Tunnel-Watchtower thing can both work.
I don't feel like I attached the "tentative ruling" sticker yet.

Here's the sticker. Maybe you've removed it though.
In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

Also, with regards to the rest of that:

I feel like a say this a lot, but, as usual, what I especially care about are:
- How things work in common real-life situations.
- Having intuitive rulings.
- Matching the rulebooks and card text.
- Having an answer for what happens in exotic scenarios, that can be worked out by the people who need to do this.

And I do not so much care about:
- What exactly happens in exotic scenarios.

I'm more asking what would happen with regards to these scenarios after a ruling is decided upon for other reasons, rather than if you will base the ruling off of these scenarios. I can see how that was unclear though. Sorry if I'm just being difficult now.

I'm now neutral about whether the change happens, by the way.
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Donald X.

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2020, 03:05:06 am »
0

Here's the sticker. Maybe you've removed it though.
Ah, from back in the other thread. Yeah I dunno. Given the new information of what the rulebook actually says (which yes I could have just looked up, but who has the time), it sounds more like one at a time.

I'm more asking what would happen with regards to these scenarios after a ruling is decided upon for other reasons, rather than if you will base the ruling off of these scenarios. I can see how that was unclear though. Sorry if I'm just being difficult now.
Yes you asked about Watchtower-Tunnel and I mean it will have an answer that I don't care about, depending on how it goes. It's utterly not urgent.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2020, 10:03:05 am »
0

So what has Dominion online been doing this whole time? All-at-once or one-at-a-time? Or some mix (you can still reveal Watchtower to Tunnel, but opponent's only see the top card discarded).
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Ingix

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2020, 01:48:04 pm »
0

All at once. Opponent only sees top card discarded, you can't discard Tunnel, gain Gold, topdeck Gold with Watchtower, then discard that Watchtower.
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MrSir712

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2020, 09:17:28 pm »
0

It only makes sense for it to be all at once. If you discarded the cards individually, one at a time, that would mean your opponent would get to see each card that was discarded.

If Militia makes you discard two cards, then you discard one, and it is now the top card of your discard pile, meaning your opponent should have been able to know what it is. It doesn't matter if it is on top or not in the end.

The rules state that the top card of your discard pile is visible at any time, and game logs always log the names of cards that happen to be on top after each discarding. Now if each card was discarded individually, they would each at some point be on top of the discard pile, and therefore each card discarded should be, by that logic, able to be discovered. But according to the rules (and Dominion online) that is not the case which is why cards are to be discarded simultaneously (with the discarding having been fully resolved) before resolving other things, such as Tunnel.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2020, 09:31:50 pm »
+1

It only makes sense for it to be all at once. If you discarded the cards individually, one at a time, that would mean your opponent would get to see each card that was discarded.

If Militia makes you discard two cards, then you discard one, and it is now the top card of your discard pile, meaning your opponent should have been able to know what it is. It doesn't matter if it is on top or not in the end.

The rules state that the top card of your discard pile is visible at any time, and game logs always log the names of cards that happen to be on top after each discarding. Now if each card was discarded individually, they would each at some point be on top of the discard pile, and therefore each card discarded should be, by that logic, able to be discovered. But according to the rules (and Dominion online) that is not the case which is why cards are to be discarded simultaneously (with the discarding having been fully resolved) before resolving other things, such as Tunnel.

Dominion online is not a source of rules, though. They usually get these obscure rules right, but not always. They could have it implemented wrong.
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MrSir712

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2020, 09:46:06 pm »
0

It only makes sense for it to be all at once. If you discarded the cards individually, one at a time, that would mean your opponent would get to see each card that was discarded.

If Militia makes you discard two cards, then you discard one, and it is now the top card of your discard pile, meaning your opponent should have been able to know what it is. It doesn't matter if it is on top or not in the end.

The rules state that the top card of your discard pile is visible at any time, and game logs always log the names of cards that happen to be on top after each discarding. Now if each card was discarded individually, they would each at some point be on top of the discard pile, and therefore each card discarded should be, by that logic, able to be discovered. But according to the rules (and Dominion online) that is not the case which is why cards are to be discarded simultaneously (with the discarding having been fully resolved) before resolving other things, such as Tunnel.

Dominion online is not a source of rules, though. They usually get these obscure rules right, but not always. They could have it implemented wrong.

Of course, but as I see no evidence to the contrary I am giving the online implementation the benefit of the doubt. But my original point was that following basic logic: out of any group of cards that is discarded, the one which appears on the top of the discard pile must be visible. Now if the cards are discarded individually there are no groups (as the only card in each "group" is the one being individually discarded) and as such each player in any physical game has the right to demand the names of each card discarded individually, and that is absurd.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2020, 01:24:22 am »
0

It only makes sense for it to be all at once. If you discarded the cards individually, one at a time, that would mean your opponent would get to see each card that was discarded.

If Militia makes you discard two cards, then you discard one, and it is now the top card of your discard pile, meaning your opponent should have been able to know what it is. It doesn't matter if it is on top or not in the end.

The rules state that the top card of your discard pile is visible at any time, and game logs always log the names of cards that happen to be on top after each discarding. Now if each card was discarded individually, they would each at some point be on top of the discard pile, and therefore each card discarded should be, by that logic, able to be discovered. But according to the rules (and Dominion online) that is not the case which is why cards are to be discarded simultaneously (with the discarding having been fully resolved) before resolving other things, such as Tunnel.

The rules don't say that Militia causes cards to be discarded simultaneously. They just say that when you discard cards simultaneously, your opponents only see the top card. As has been shown in this thread, the rulebook says that for Militia you discard until you have 3 cards, which at the very least implies that it's not simultaneous. And Donald has ruled previously (several times) that you can reveal Tunnel before discarding all the cards, so this has been a mistake in Dominion Online, up until now if Donald chooses to change the ruling.

Regarding what's visible in the discard pile in Dominion Online, this means very little, as you don't even get to choose what card to put on top when you discard, in clear violation of the rules. (To be clear, I'm not saying this should change.)

Ingix

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2020, 06:26:47 pm »
0

Most (all?) discard effects online have the last chosen card become the top card in the discard.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2020, 06:58:23 pm »
0

Most (all?) discard effects online have the last chosen card become the top card in the discard.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that.

Ingix

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2020, 05:18:17 am »
0

I think Tunnel and Green Village are the only cards affected by this "change", besides the opponent now knowing all cards discarded. Faithful Hound's effect doesn't have anything that can be triggered of it, so it doesn't really need to be handled 'right now, before the next card is discarded'.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2022, 11:15:25 am »
0

Here's the sticker. Maybe you've removed it though.
Ah, from back in the other thread. Yeah I dunno. Given the new information of what the rulebook actually says (which yes I could have just looked up, but who has the time), it sounds more like one at a time.

Has this ruling been changed? It matters for Village Green and Trail.
I see that the newest rulebook uses the same "discard until they only have 3" wording.

Donald X.

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2022, 03:36:06 pm »
+2

Here's the sticker. Maybe you've removed it though.
Ah, from back in the other thread. Yeah I dunno. Given the new information of what the rulebook actually says (which yes I could have just looked up, but who has the time), it sounds more like one at a time.

Has this ruling been changed? It matters for Village Green and Trail.
I see that the newest rulebook uses the same "discard until they only have 3" wording.
Rulebook text from Hinterlands 2E (and yes "reveal" should be "play"):

If you discard multiple cards at once (e.g. to Margrave), they are all discarded at once, and then the abilities happen one at a time. This means for example that if you discard two Trails to a Margrave, and playing the first Trail causes you to shuffle, you won't be able to reveal the second Trail (as it's lost in your deck at that point).
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2022, 04:29:06 pm »
0

Here's the sticker. Maybe you've removed it though.
Ah, from back in the other thread. Yeah I dunno. Given the new information of what the rulebook actually says (which yes I could have just looked up, but who has the time), it sounds more like one at a time.

Has this ruling been changed? It matters for Village Green and Trail.
I see that the newest rulebook uses the same "discard until they only have 3" wording.
Rulebook text from Hinterlands 2E (and yes "reveal" should be "play"):

If you discard multiple cards at once (e.g. to Margrave), they are all discarded at once, and then the abilities happen one at a time. This means for example that if you discard two Trails to a Margrave, and playing the first Trail causes you to shuffle, you won't be able to reveal the second Trail (as it's lost in your deck at that point).

Thanks. That was surprising though, considering what the Dominion rulebook has said all along and still says, and the fact that you stated earlier that you care about matching rulings with rulebooks. Plus presumably it would matter somewhat that the opposite ruling has been standing for many years.

Donald X.

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2022, 05:49:30 pm »
+1

Thanks. That was surprising though, considering what the Dominion rulebook has said all along and still says, and the fact that you stated earlier that you care about matching rulings with rulebooks. Plus presumably it would matter somewhat that the opposite ruling has been standing for many years.
I mean. My sincere guess is that, for almost all games of Dominion ever played, it has not mattered.
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