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Author Topic: Militia rule change  (Read 16309 times)

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hhelibebcnofnena

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Militia rule change
« on: March 10, 2020, 11:01:49 am »
+3

You could make a thread in rules for this, present your case for your side; this thread is for bonus previews.

Since nobody else seems to be taking up this suggestion, here is another thread! This conversation will be much easier to follow over here. And people who are going to the previews to see the previews can go to the previews to see the previews!

Sure. But if that's what LastFootnote was saying, he was undermining his own point, and you are undermining yours too, which was that the ruling should change because that's somehow what the rulebook says.

This has been one of the oddest conversations I've had here (which says a lot):

-The Militia rule needs to change because of what the rulebook says.
-The rulebook doesn't say that.
-People are not computers.
-Do you mean that people would misinterpret the rulebook?
-People don't read rulebooks.

I agree, this is strange, and I do think the rule change seemed out of nowhere and unnecessary. Which rulebook states that only the top card is visible after Militia? I thought the only precedent for that was the online implementation?

But I also think you are leaving out some parts, which inherently takes other parts out of context. Perhaps that won't happen as much when this is in its own thread, and everything is relevant!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2020, 11:06:21 am »
+4

The rulebook states that when you discard multiple cards, you don't have to show people what they all are. They can see the top one though, because your discard pile is face up.

Unless I'm mistaken, no rulebook specifies whether Militia's discards are one-at-a-time or all-at-once. Now with Village Green that suddenly matters a lot more. At some points in the past, then (online only) ruling was that they were discarded one at a time. That sucks and creates more rules questions. Let's have them all discarded at once. In my experience, that's what people IRL actually do anyway.

EDIT: The big, most common rules question is: Let's say I have 4 cards in hand and somebody plays Militia. I discard Village Green, play it using the Reaction, and choose to get the effect now for some reason. Now I'm back up to 4 cards. Do I have to discard again? I had 3 cards in my hand at one point. Was that enough, or is the attack still resolving?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 11:09:20 am by LastFootnote »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2020, 12:01:30 pm »
+1

So before Village Green, this question came up because of Tunnel/Watchtower originally.

What does Dominion online do? Are you allowed to topdeck or trash your new Gold if you're discarding Tunnel and Watchtower to Militia?

And although I guess it hasn't been made publicly playable yet; what does Dominion online do for Village Green here?

I dunno, my instinct if just reading Militia's text; and not thinking about any other interactions or ruling, is that "discard down to 3" should be mechanically the same as "discard 2 cards" if you start with 5 cards in hand. And so as long as "discard 2 cards" means "at the same time", so should "discard down to 3". I feel like that's how the average person is going to think about getting hit with a Militia. They think "darn, I have to discard 2 cards now", not "darn, now I have to keep discarding cards until I only have 3 left".

Now there could have been a rule (probably too late now) that says that discarding is always a 1-at-a-time thing. I think that rule exists for drawing already... you can't draw 2 cards at the same time. Other than the updated shuffle rule, "+2 cards" is identical to "+1 card, +1 card". But as long as discarding multiple cards at the same time is a thing allowed by the rules (which it clearly is), then I feel like Militia reads that way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2020, 12:08:34 pm »
0

I'm also pretty sure that the Village Green issue could happen before Village Green.

4 cards in hand, containing Watchtower, Tunnel, and Catacombs. You have your marker on both Sewers and Innovation.

Opponent plays Militia. You discard Tunnel (3 cards in hand), reveal it to gain a Gold. Reveal Watchtower to trash that Gold (which is allowed under the previous ruling by Donald X). Sewers triggers, so you trash Catacombs from your hand (2 cards in hand). Catacombs' on-trash lets you gain a Smithy. Innovation sets Smithy aside and then plays it. You draw 3 cards. (5 cards in hand).

Are you done discarding to Militia? Under the current (not counting this week's potential change) rules, it seems like you would have to still keep discarding.

*Edit* Never mind, I see Innovation only works during your own turns. Darn.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 12:11:14 pm by GendoIkari »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2020, 12:10:51 pm »
+1

Other than the updated shuffle rule, "+2 cards" is identical to "+1 card, +1 card".

I thought that was only true for Draw-to-X? If it's true in general, though, I agree that it makes sense for "Discard down to 3" to be equivalent to "Discard [(your hand size)-3] cards".
However, either way, I'm with Jeebus on the "should it be changed for the purpose a few obscure interactions" issue.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2020, 12:23:58 pm »
+1

Other than the updated shuffle rule, "+2 cards" is identical to "+1 card, +1 card".

I thought that was only true for Draw-to-X? If it's true in general, though, I agree that it makes sense for "Discard down to 3" to be equivalent to "Discard [(your hand size)-3] cards".
However, either way, I'm with Jeebus on the "should it be changed for the purpose a few obscure interactions" issue.

Unless it changed with the new shuffle rule; it was definitely true originally. It mattered for Stash. With the new shuffle rule it is technically possible that you could draw 2 cards at the same time, but I don't know if it's written in the rules anywhere in second edition.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2020, 12:29:19 pm »
+1

I'm also pretty sure that the Village Green issue could happen before Village Green.

4 cards in hand, containing Watchtower, Tunnel, and Catacombs. You have your marker on both Sewers and Innovation.

Opponent plays Militia. You discard Tunnel (3 cards in hand), reveal it to gain a Gold. Reveal Watchtower to trash that Gold (which is allowed under the previous ruling by Donald X). Sewers triggers, so you trash Catacombs from your hand (2 cards in hand). Catacombs' on-trash lets you gain a Smithy. Innovation sets Smithy aside and then plays it. You draw 3 cards. (5 cards in hand).

Are you done discarding to Militia? Under the current (not counting this week's potential change) rules, it seems like you would have to still keep discarding.

*Edit* Never mind, I see Innovation only works during your own turns. Darn.

Instead of opponent playing Milita, it's your turn and you gain a Cursed Village and get Poverty. There you go.

Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2020, 12:34:49 pm »
0

Unless it changed with the new shuffle rule; it was definitely true originally. It mattered for Stash. With the new shuffle rule it is technically possible that you could draw 2 cards at the same time, but I don't know if it's written in the rules anywhere in second edition.

I don't think it ever was printed anywhere, but I asked Donald about how Stash worked back in the day, and he said that you draw one card at a time. Obviously this was actually a feature of Stash, since he even changed the card text to preserve it when the shuffle rule changed. I think the rule about drawing being one-at-a-time is irrelevant in practice now, but that was the latest ruling.

GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2020, 12:36:15 pm »
+1

I'm also pretty sure that the Village Green issue could happen before Village Green.

4 cards in hand, containing Watchtower, Tunnel, and Catacombs. You have your marker on both Sewers and Innovation.

Opponent plays Militia. You discard Tunnel (3 cards in hand), reveal it to gain a Gold. Reveal Watchtower to trash that Gold (which is allowed under the previous ruling by Donald X). Sewers triggers, so you trash Catacombs from your hand (2 cards in hand). Catacombs' on-trash lets you gain a Smithy. Innovation sets Smithy aside and then plays it. You draw 3 cards. (5 cards in hand).

Are you done discarding to Militia? Under the current (not counting this week's potential change) rules, it seems like you would have to still keep discarding.

*Edit* Never mind, I see Innovation only works during your own turns. Darn.

Instead of opponent playing Milita, it's your turn and you gain a Cursed Village and get Poverty. There you go.

Gaining the Cursed Village would use up Innovation, so it wouldn't happen later when you gain the Smithy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2020, 12:40:47 pm »
0

I'm also pretty sure that the Village Green issue could happen before Village Green.

4 cards in hand, containing Watchtower, Tunnel, and Catacombs. You have your marker on both Sewers and Innovation.

Opponent plays Militia. You discard Tunnel (3 cards in hand), reveal it to gain a Gold. Reveal Watchtower to trash that Gold (which is allowed under the previous ruling by Donald X). Sewers triggers, so you trash Catacombs from your hand (2 cards in hand). Catacombs' on-trash lets you gain a Smithy. Innovation sets Smithy aside and then plays it. You draw 3 cards. (5 cards in hand).

Are you done discarding to Militia? Under the current (not counting this week's potential change) rules, it seems like you would have to still keep discarding.

*Edit* Never mind, I see Innovation only works during your own turns. Darn.

Instead of opponent playing Milita, it's your turn and you gain a Cursed Village and get Poverty. There you go.

Gaining the Cursed Village would use up Innovation, so it wouldn't happen later when you gain the Smithy.

Ok, so no Innovation. Instead, when you trash Catacombs, you gain Blessed Village, and get The Sea's Gift. This should work as long as you started with 5 cards instead of 4... (Discard Tunnel, trash Catacombs, draw from Sea; leaves you with 4 cards).
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2020, 12:53:47 pm »
0

From the other thread:

Militia's a debate because you can choose "now" for Village Green. The question is, "what if I discard down to three, but then I react and play a Village Green so I have 4 cards? Do I have to discard another one?" If they're discarded at once, and then reactions take effect, then the answer is "no, you've already discarded." But if they're discarded one-at-a-time, the answer is, "yes, you have finished discarding a card, and you have reacted to it. Now you have to check if there are more than 3 cards in your hand. There are, so discard another one."

You're right in your analasys, but the debate was mostly about the need to change the rule. I don't think rules should keep changing for no good reason. Donald is changing his mind about an old ruling that has been confirmed several times, just because he's looking at the same information that was available all the time and coming to a different conclusion. In my view, that is not enough of a reason to change a ruling.

I see that the old ruling creates a new rules question with Village Green (although it could technically come up before in extremely unlikely scenarios). But changing a ruling just to avoid a rules question also seems like a bad idea, especially considering how many situations that already exist where players will have rules questions. Lots of people will play Village Green/Militia wrong (whatever the rule), and lots of people play other interactions wrong too. If they actually want to find out, they go online and look for the answer (again, whatever the rule). The changed ruling avoids the new rules question, but changes the answer to the old Militia/Tunnel/Watchtower question, so for people that look up answers online it's only bad, and for those who don't it's of no consequence.

Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2020, 12:58:49 pm »
0

The rulebook states that when you discard multiple cards, you don't have to show people what they all are. They can see the top one though, because your discard pile is face up.

Unless I'm mistaken, no rulebook specifies whether Militia's discards are one-at-a-time or all-at-once. Now with Village Green that suddenly matters a lot more. At some points in the past, then (online only) ruling was that they were discarded one at a time. That sucks and creates more rules questions. Let's have them all discarded at once. In my experience, that's what people IRL actually do anyway.

That's right, no rulebook states that. Which is why I'm still wondering what point you were trying to make when I pointed out exactly that.

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2020, 01:08:05 pm »
0

You're right in your analasys, but the debate was mostly about the need to change the rule.

I know. I interpreted Minotaur's question as being about the rule change itself, rather than the debate. I could have been wrong in that; I sometimes misinterpret people.

As I have stated in this thread, I am (albeit less strongly than you) of the opinion that the rule shouldn't have been changed.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2020, 01:16:44 pm »
0

Unless it changed with the new shuffle rule; it was definitely true originally. It mattered for Stash. With the new shuffle rule it is technically possible that you could draw 2 cards at the same time, but I don't know if it's written in the rules anywhere in second edition.

I don't think it ever was printed anywhere, but I asked Donald about how Stash worked back in the day, and he said that you draw one card at a time. Obviously this was actually a feature of Stash, since he even changed the card text to preserve it when the shuffle rule changed. I think the rule about drawing being one-at-a-time is irrelevant in practice now, but that was the latest ruling.

Okay, then I think the rule change makes sense as a thing to have been the case originally. I still don't think it's enough to warrant a change, but at least it makes sense.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2020, 01:34:58 pm »
0

If the rule doesn't change, then there needs to be a clearly defined rule about how to deal with "discard down to" and reactions that trigger during this process that may cause you to draw more. The problem with the current "one at a time" rule is that there's no obvious answer about what is correct in regards to the Militia/Tunnel/Watchtower/Catacombs/Sewers/Blessed Village/Sea's Gift interaction... which is a combination that comes up all the time, I'm sure.

Ok, so now it's just the Militia/Village Green interaction. Same issue as above, but is going to come up way more often. If discarding is one at a time, I have no idea whether it makes sense to say that you should have to keep discarding after you draw a card from Village Green or not. Either option seems equally likely. If instead discard is all at once, then Militia is a single atomic action that can never "keep going" after you've done it.

Interestingly, while MTG rules are insanely complex, the way they work with triggers is much simpler than Dominion... because things can't be interrupted by other things. If something triggers during the resolution of a spell, it just sits and waits until the spell is done before the trigger actually doing anything. If Dominion were like that, then you would always finish discarding for Militia before you gained a Gold for Tunnel, etc.
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Minotaur

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2020, 01:48:11 pm »
0

Choosing the order is still tricky because you could discard two Village Greens.  (If the "last" discard is a Village Green, you reached 3, if I understand correctly?)  You also might want Village Green to go first and then discard a bunch more if you have three Diplomats in hand.  Two Village Greens, and the ruling matters but there's no choice, unless the ruling is that "check handsize" and "react to discard" are both triggered by the same discard and you choose the order from there, as you do with "at start/end of turn" effects.

For symmetry with discard, they could change +N Cards to mean "Set aside N cards from your deck one at a time face down, and then put them all into your hand, triggering reshuffle as you go if necessary.  You may inspect any number of the set aside cards at any time as you do so.  Apply side effects of card draw for each card in any order, if any."  But I suspect there are cases where this is not clear either.
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Minotaur

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2020, 02:00:36 pm »
0

One-at-a-time doesn't sound great to me because now the online version has to say what you discarded, and in real life, everyone can demand to see your discards, which takes more time and is only fair given the rules.  Might as well skip the middleman and make all discard piles completely public at this point.

It's somewhat of a downer that online you don't get to pick the top card like in real life, but the interface hassle would be annoying.  Maybe a toggled option to give the prompt each time would work, but it's a little heavy for something most people won't use.  Like, I can lose fine either way, I don't see it making the difference for me.
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villafan001

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2020, 02:10:18 pm »
0

One-at-a-time doesn't sound great to me because now the online version has to say what you discarded, and in real life, everyone can demand to see your discards, which takes more time and is only fair given the rules.  Might as well skip the middleman and make all discard piles completely public at this point.

It's somewhat of a downer that online you don't get to pick the top card like in real life, but the interface hassle would be annoying.  Maybe a toggled option to give the prompt each time would work, but it's a little heavy for something most people won't use.  Like, I can lose fine either way, I don't see it making the difference for me.

Doesn’t the online implementation select the discard / topdeck order according to the order in which you selected the cards?
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2020, 02:12:06 pm »
0

One-at-a-time doesn't sound great to me ... Might as well skip the middleman and make all discard piles completely public at this point.

If it were one-at-a-time, it would just be Militia-like-things that are "discard down to x". Discarding your hand during cleanup would still be all at once, as would "discard 2 cards."
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chipperMDW

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2020, 02:14:44 pm »
0

One-at-a-time doesn't sound great to me because now the online version has to say what you discarded, and in real life, everyone can demand to see your discards, which takes more time and is only fair given the rules.  Might as well skip the middleman and make all discard piles completely public at this point.

So, the previous ruling for Militia was "discard them one at a time, but you don't have to reveal them all somehow."

The way I would implement that electronically would be to allow discarding in batches. Have Militia repeatedly ask you, as long as you have more than 3 cards in hand, to discard a number of cards between 1 and {cards in hand minus 3}. If you want to discard them all in one go, then you do that and only reveal one. If you want to discard less than that, you do, you react, and then you can discard another batch. You reveal one card per batch you discard. Repeat until you're down to 3 cards in hand.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2020, 02:26:49 pm »
0

Ok, so now it's just the Militia/Village Green interaction. Same issue as above, but is going to come up way more often. If discarding is one at a time, I have no idea whether it makes sense to say that you should have to keep discarding after you draw a card from Village Green or not. Either option seems equally likely. If instead discard is all at once, then Militia is a single atomic action that can never "keep going" after you've done it.

I think Hhelibebcnofnena's take has to be correct. Reacting with the Village Green triggers on discarding one card. After resolving that, Militia continues, checking how many cards you have.

Choosing the order is still tricky because you could discard two Village Greens.  (If the "last" discard is a Village Green, you reached 3, if I understand correctly?)  You also might want Village Green to go first and then discard a bunch more if you have three Diplomats in hand.  Two Village Greens, and the ruling matters but there's no choice, unless the ruling is that "check handsize" and "react to discard" are both triggered by the same discard and you choose the order from there, as you do with "at start/end of turn" effects.

I'm not sure I understand you. But there is a ruling that when you discard several cards at once, when-discard abilities don't trigger until after you've discarded all the cards.

So, the previous ruling for Militia was "discard them one at a time, but you don't have to reveal them all somehow."

I didn't know that (or maybe I forgot). Are you sure Donald has ruled that you don't have to reveal all the cards when you discard one at a time for Militia? Do you have a link to that?

Minotaur

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2020, 02:36:46 pm »
0

Choosing the order is still tricky because you could discard two Village Greens.  (If the "last" discard is a Village Green, you reached 3, if I understand correctly?)  You also might want Village Green to go first and then discard a bunch more if you have three Diplomats in hand.  Two Village Greens, and the ruling matters but there's no choice, unless the ruling is that "check handsize" and "react to discard" are both triggered by the same discard and you choose the order from there, as you do with "at start/end of turn" effects.

I'm not sure I understand you. But there is a ruling that when you discard several cards at once, when-discard abilities don't trigger until after you've discarded all the cards.

I didn't know that (or maybe I forgot). Are you sure Donald has ruled that you don't have to reveal all the cards when you discard one at a time for Militia? Do you have a link to that?

If we encoded "check whether your handsize is at least 4" as a side effect of each discard event (single or combined ruling), then it would be one of two events triggered by the discards themselves.  Eligible reactions are usually taken in the order chosen by whoever can/must perform them.
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Jeebus

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2020, 02:41:38 pm »
0

The option that you implicitly advocate is the lazy one (which is thankfully not the case here): a designer not caring about unclear stuff and updating the rules.

I don't think I'd go that far. I think a more charitable interpretation is that Jeebus advocates for an approach with greater pre-planning and consideration for how word/rule choices will impact future design space, which would actually take much more work up-front. Though you and I do agree that it's not realistic to expect to anticipate everything. Especially in a world with limited time where you actually need to start selling those expansions at some point.

I'm not even replying to Segura, because he's talking crazy talk, and again completely misrepresenting what I said. I was saying (to repeat myself again) that a rule change should have a good reason(!). I was not talking about pre-planning. Donald has made rulings based on trying to interpret the rules and cards as accurately as possible although I thought that the results would be unintuitive for players. One example is the ruling that you can take another player's Adventures tokens with Possession (at the time when Possession worked with all tokens), because he interpreted the Adventures rulebook that way. I tried to convince him that it's better to rule the other way, because that's what most players would think. And the result of that ruling was a bunch of more complex rules questions. In that case it would have been better to "reinterpret" the Adventures rulebook. But when a ruling is made in response to a specific interaction, I don't see that it should change just because it raises another rules question, which could easiliy be answered instead. That's the nature of introducing new stuff, it will often raise rules questions, as can be seen in this forum with the teasers.

chipperMDW

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2020, 03:14:58 pm »
+1

I didn't know that (or maybe I forgot). Are you sure Donald has ruled that you don't have to reveal all the cards when you discard one at a time for Militia? Do you have a link to that?

I found the post I was remembering. Specifically (bolding mine):

I think it's more natural to discard one at a time to Militia, given the phrasing; especially considering it lines up with Library etc. This could give you an infinite loop with "when you discard this, +1 card" and well that card doesn't exist. I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

Maybe I'm incorrect in calling that a ruling. It looks like Donald was maybe still in the process of deciding there.

Ha, ha, he talks about "when you discard this, +1 card" in there.
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flynd

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Re: Militia rule change
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2020, 03:24:36 pm »
0

I haven't seen anyone mention that the ruling here could force additional cards to be discarded after reaching the hand size.

Example:
I have bought Sewers and have five cards in hand, including Tunnel and Watchtower.
Opponent plays Militia.
I discard Tunnel.
I reveal Watchtower to trash the gained Gold.
I use Sewers to trash a card from my hand.
I now have three cards left in my hand.

If I discard until I have 3 cards left then I'm done, but if the number of cards to discard is decided when Militia is played I must still discard one more and will end up with just two cards left.
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