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[Jeebus]

For a while I’ve been working from a model of “when you play” abilities triggering at the same time although they are resolved at different points. I’ve found this to be the best way to explain the timing while being largely in line with how the cards are phrased. It also explains how Royal Carriage works with Enchantress in a clear way.

There are three types of triggered abilities that all say “when you play”.*
* when you play, first (before resolving): Reactions, Urchin, Kiln
* when you play, after (after resolving): cards like Citadel (Royal Carriage and Coin of the Realm have the same timing, and I will assume they have the same phrasing, Citadel’s text being the latest version of that phrasing)
* when you play (when you would resolve): Enchantress, Lantern, Ways

I here use “resolve” synonymously with “follow the instructions”, since it’s shorter.

My model for playing a card is (MODEL A):
1) Play card. All “when you play” abilities (of all three types) trigger.
2) Before you resolve the card: Resolve Reactions etc.
3) When you would resolve the card: Resolve Enchantress etc.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Resolve Royal Carriage etc.

The cards all say “when you play”, and this way that’s how we interpret them. It’s akin to how a card’s play ability happens when you resolve it but might set up future effects. For instance, Charm happens when you play (resolve) it, but part of that is setting up something “the next time you buy a card.” As mentioned, this also makes it easy to see how Royal Carriage triggers (and is subsequently resolved) even when we don’t resolve an Enchanted card’s play ability.

I’ve used this model to make explaining clearer and easier (and more in line with card texts). But I’ve realized that it actually has some functional differences compared to the alternative model.

This is the alternative model (MODEL B):
1) Play card.
2) Before you resolve the card: Reactions etc. trigger and are resolved.
3) When you would resolve the card: Enchantress etc. trigger and are resolved.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Royal Carriage etc. trigger and are resolved.

This means that:
“when you play a card, first” actually means “before resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, after” actually means “after resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, instead of resolving” actually means “when you would resolve a played card, instead”.

Here are some differences:

Champion has been ruled in different ways, but was ruled as “after resolving” until recently. Going by that ruling, it would work differently depending on the model. With model A, its own when-play ability (“+1 Action”) would not trigger upon it being played, since the ongoing ability would not be active yet in step 1; it would activate in step 4. Since it was not triggered, it would not be resolved in step 5. With model B, however, the when-play ability would trigger and be resolved in step 5, giving you one more Action.

Enchantress: There needs to be a way for you to play a Sheepdog or a Black Cat in step 2 of playing an Enchanted card. Currently I don’t see a way, but it could happen if another player’s Caravan Guard (reacting to your attack), via some Way, makes that player gain a Victory card or makes you gain a card. In that case, it would be like this with model A: Play Militia as your first card, Enchantress and Reactions trigger (step 1), you end up playing a Black Cat (step 2) but Enchantress has already triggered on the first played card, then Enchantress is resolved on Militia. With model B it would be different: Play Militia as your first card, play Black Cat (step 2), Enchantress triggers (and is resolved) when you would resolve the Black Cat, since that is the first card you would resolve this turn, then resolve Militia normally.

Sauna and Merchant: The ruling is that Sauna and Merchant is “after resolving”. Play Sauna, then play Silver, trashing Catacombs and gaining Merchant, playing the Merchant via Innovation. With model A it would go: Play Silver, Sauna’s “when play Silver” ability triggers (step 1), resolve Silver, resolve Sauna (step 5) which leads to playing Merchant, now you are still in step 5 for Silver, but Merchant’s “when play Silver” ability never triggered for this Silver. With model B it would go: Play Silver, resolve Silver, trigger Sauna (step 5) and resolve it which leads to playing Merchant, now you are still in step 5 for Silver, so Merchant also triggers and is resolved, meaning you get +$1.

Which model is Dominion (or should Dominion be) using?


*Some Treasures (and Noble Brigand) also say this. These are not triggered abilities; they are normal play abilities that work exactly like all other cards that you play.

[Donald X.]

You announce a card and put it into play; you do "first" abilities; you do Ways and Enchantress; you resolve the card; you do "after" stuff e.g. Royal Carriage.

Champion will say "first" eventually, and I think does already online.

On most cards (in most games), "when x happens" means "after x happens." Treasures are a big exception in Dominion, they say "when you play this" but mean "this is what this card does on the occasion of playing it, its abilities, in case you were puzzled there." It seemed necessary at the time, though these days I wish I could save that line of text on all the treasures, and it does muddy this "what does the word 'when' mean" issue. If we check we will find another exception somewhere, where the card means something like "as part of doing this" and not "after." But Sauna and Merchant are just "after," like Border Village etc. I saw your pitch for changing them, but adding "first" to Merchant in the main set seems bad.

I believe Stef has this all correct online; you can try out card interactions there.

[Jeebus]

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid you're not really addressing the question. This is not about whether Champion, Sauna or Merchant happen first or after. I mean okay, if Champion happens first, it doesn't matter what model we use. But what model we use does matter whether Sauna and Merchant happen first or after (because they happen at the same time).

The Treasures that say "when you play" are irrelevant to this issue (and I addressed them in a footnote just in case someone else got confused).

Btw, my pitch was just for all three (Champion, Sauna and Merchant) to have the same timing. If you change Champion to say "first", then it's all good.

In any case, the question is about which of model A and B Dominion uses. Your listing of the order of things is a given; it applies to both models. With Champion changed back to "first", the scenario I wrote is purely theoretical. So is the Enchantress scenario, as far as I know (it depends on the Ways), but in any case it seems very close to being real. The Sauna/Merchant scenario is real.

[hhelibebcnofnena]

So the question is whether the "trigger" and the "resolution" of effects happen at the same time?

Just my opinion, which I know isn't the question, but Model B makes more sense to me.

[Jeebus]

So the question is whether the "trigger" and the "resolution" of effects happen at the same time?

Kind of. Really, in either model they don't always happen at the same time. For instance, if two when-buy abilities trigger, one is resolved while the other one waits.

[Donald X.]

Thanks for your reply, but I'm afraid you're not really addressing the question. This is not about whether Champion, Sauna or Merchant happen first or after. I mean okay, if Champion happens first, it doesn't matter what model we use. But what model we use does matter whether Sauna and Merchant happen first or after (because they happen at the same time).

It was too many words to read them all; I tried to answer what your question might have been. I want to keep you satisfied, but man, I can only go so far and still lead a rich life.

In any case, the question is about which of model A and B Dominion uses. Your listing of the order of things is a given; it applies to both models. With Champion changed back to "first", the scenario I wrote is purely theoretical. So is the Enchantress scenario, as far as I know (it depends on the Ways), but in any case it seems very close to being real. The Sauna/Merchant scenario is real.

I am not seeing an issue with Sauna / Merchant. They happen after you finish resolving playing a Silver. It's the point at which you would go on to do other things, but wait, these abilities trigger.

[Jeebus]

Okay...

Which of these:

MODEL A
1) Play card. All “when you play” abilities trigger (Reactions, Enchantress, Royal Carriage...).
2) Before you resolve the card: Resolve Reactions etc.
3) When you would resolve the card: Resolve Enchantress etc.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Resolve Royal Carriage etc.

MODEL B
1) Play card.
2) Before you resolve the card: Reactions etc. trigger and are resolved.
3) When you would resolve the card: Enchantress etc. trigger and are resolved.
4) Resolve the played card.
5) After you resolve the card: Royal Carriage etc. trigger and are resolved.

You play Champion-without-"first". With model A, it gives you +1 Action. With model B, it triggers on its own playing, so it gives you +2 Actions.

Your opponent has played Enchantress. The first thing you do is play a Militia. In the Reaction window you end up playing a Black Cat. With model A, it's the Militia that gives you "+1 Card, +1 Action" (the first card you "played"). With model B, it's the Black Cat instead (the first card you would resolve).

You play Sauna. You play Silver, trashing a card which leads to playing a Merchant. With model A, the merchant doesn't give you +$1. With model B, it does.

All these cards say "when you play". I like model A because it's in line with the card texts: "when you play" -> trigger ... "first/after/instead" -> resolve
This makes things easier to explain. It also makes it easy to see how Royal Carriage triggers (and is subsequently resolved) even when we don’t resolve an Enchanted card’s play ability.

[GendoIkari]

I am not seeing an issue with Sauna / Merchant. They happen after you finish resolving playing a Silver. It's the point at which you would go on to do other things, but wait, these abilities trigger.

In his example, Merchant had not been played at the time Silver was first played. But Merchant did get played before “when you play” things for Silver had finished. So does Merchant give +$1 in this case? Or is it too late; did Merchant need to be already played at the time Silver was first played?

It seems to me that Merchant would give it’s +$1 in this case; for the same reason that you can reveal a Moat that you didn’t have in your hand at the time the attack was first played. Unless reactions work specifically different than other “when” triggers; it seems that the general rule for “when” things is that it’s never too late until you have finished resolving all possible triggers.

Which is Model B in his post.

[Jeebus]

It seems to me that Merchant would give it’s +$1 in this case; for the same reason that you can reveal a Moat that you didn’t have in your hand at the time the attack was first played. Unless reactions work specifically different than other “when” triggers; it seems that the general rule for “when” things is that it’s never too late until you have finished resolving all possible triggers.

Which is Model B in his post.

No, model A does not break that rule either. It's just that the trigger window is earlier. Model A works the same for almost all interactions, like Diplomating into a Moat, playing Hireling at start of turn, etc, etc.
So if Merchant gives +$1, it's not for the same reason that you can Diplomat into a Moat and still use it.

[GendoIkari]

It seems to me that Merchant would give it’s +$1 in this case; for the same reason that you can reveal a Moat that you didn’t have in your hand at the time the attack was first played. Unless reactions work specifically different than other “when” triggers; it seems that the general rule for “when” things is that it’s never too late until you have finished resolving all possible triggers.

Which is Model B in his post.

No, model A does not break that rule either. It's just that the trigger window is earlier. Model A works the same for almost all interactions, like Diplomating into a Moat, playing Hireling at start of turn, etc, etc.
So if Merchant gives +$1, it's not for the same reason that you can Diplomat into a Moat and still use it.

I mean more in a general principle that Dominion doesn’t say things are too late when there’s a possibility that it’s not too late.

Of course that might not be a good reason for a ruling. So never mind that part of my post.

Curious though, what does Dominion online do?

[Ingix]

I think the important part that Jeebus misses in the discussion is that Dominion does not follow a strict "We have an event, we note down every ability that triggers of that event, then have other rules determine how those noted abilities resolve at some later time." paradigm.

I wish it would, but it can't due to the classic Secret Chamber/Moat (maybe now Diplomat/Moat) interaction.

Instead we have a model where after an event happens, there is a window to handle triggered effects for that event. If there are none, that window is over. If there are multiple, they are handled, one at a time, until there are none left. The thing that differentiates it from the strict paradigm above is that until the list of pending triggered effects has become empty, new ones can be added to that list.

Again, that is necessary for Diplomat/Moat. It's also been true for "At start of turn" effects: I can play a Hireling with an "At start of turn" effect (say Ghost or Piazza), and it's own "At the start of each of your turns..." effect will already trigger and resolve this very turn. It's why if you use Innovate on gaining Duplicate, you can call the very same Duplicate you just played on it's own gain Event. That wouldn't be possible if the allowed effects would be restricted to abilities that were available when the event happened.

For that reason, I think the difference between Model A and Model B is non-existent.

For example for "when you play, after (after resolving)" effects, it is clear that their window to be handled is after the card has done its on-play effect. Taking the above into account, it doesn't really become important when those abilities trigger, if in Model A in step 1) or in Model B in step 5). What's important is that they exist at step 5.

That's why I also think that the analysis of Jeebus about Champion is incorrect:

Champion has been ruled in different ways, but was ruled as “after resolving” until recently. Going by that ruling, it would work differently depending on the model. With model A, its own when-play ability (“+1 Action”) would not trigger upon it being played, since the ongoing ability would not be active yet in step 1; it would activate in step 4. Since it was not triggered, it would not be resolved in step 5. With model B, however, the when-play ability would trigger and be resolved in step 5, giving you one more Action.

As I said above, "when does the ability trigger" isn't relevant at all. What's relevant is that the ability exists at some time when the window for handling an event is active (not yet empty), which is true for both models.

The way I see it, the model for playing a is card as follows:

1) Annouce playing the card and put it in play (if appropriate).
2) All things that do something "first" when a card is played now have their window to be handled (Kiln, Urchin, Champion, Adventure tokens, Reactions on attack (Moat, Diplomat, etc.)).
3) All things that replace "following a card's instructions" apply now (Enchantress, Ways, not sure about Lantern). Only one can apply, since afterwards you are no longer following the card's instructions, even for the Way of the Chameleon.
4) The card does it's on-play effect or alternate effect (if step 3 replaced following the card's instructions).
5) All things that do something when a card is played (no "first") now have their window to be handled (Royal Carriage, Citadel, Sauna, ...)

For your examples, I already discussed Champion and I don't understand the Enchantress example.

For Sauna/Silver/Merchant: In step 5) of the Silver play, initially only the Sauna effect is pending. After it has been executed the Merchant has been played as part of it. Assuming it was the first Silver play, this means there is now a new ability in step 5 of the Silver playing, which gets handled and results in an additional +$1.

Summing up, it seems that my results agree with your Model B, but I don't think the reasonsing is the same. Thinking about when an abilitiy triggers is ultimately not relevant, as it is important only if it exits at some time during the window to handle the corresponding event.

[Jeebus]

Thanks, Ingix, I finally realized that model A must be wrong, and that I've been wrong (also in my reply to GendoIkari) in thinking that model A can support Diplomat/Moat. I had to delete my last post.

First of all, your model is correct, but it's correct whether we accept my model A or B.

You are wrong that the models don't make a difference. The difference between the models is that the trigger window in model A is in step 1. All abilities (Reactions, Enchantress, Royal Carriage...) are triggered then.

Champion-without-"first": As I said, with model A, its own when-play ability (“+1 Action”) would not trigger upon it being played, since the ongoing ability would not be active yet in step 1; it would activate in step 4. It did not trigger in step 1, so it is not resolved in step 5. Yes, the ongoing ability is active in step 5, but it's too late, the triggering window was in step 1.

But as I said I've been wrong in considering model A.

For when-gain, when-buy and start-of-turn, it's simple, because there is no question that those abilities trigger after that event, and then they are "immediately" resolved (meaning one at a time). There is no need to talk about different possible models.

But for playing a card, I was using model A to describe that abilities trigger at the time you "put the card in play", and then are resolved at the given times. I described all the reasons for this in my first post. But now I see that it has a fatal flaw: It would indeed mean that it would be too late to reveal a Moat drawn with Diplomat. Not sure how I missed that, but I guess it was because I used the model to describe "when-would-resolve" (Enchantress) abilities and "after" abilities and didn't think much about what it would entail for "first" abilities.

Then we must conclude that model B is correct. Like I said, it means that:
“when you play a card, first” actually means “before resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, after” actually means “after resolving a played card”.
“when you play a card, instead of resolving” actually means “when you would resolve a played card, instead”.

So then my conclusion is:

* Champion does indeed need "first" in order to not trigger on itself.

* Merchant being played as a result of a Silver being played (and Sauna-trashing Catacombs to gain and Innovation-play Merchant) means that you do get +$1. Can you confirm this, Donald?

* With Enchantress, if you play Militia as your first card, and the Reactions to this leads to you playing a Black Cat or Sheepdog*, this is the first time you would resolve a played card, so the Black Cat/Sheepdog gets Enchanted, not the Militia. Can you confirm this, Donald?

*To make this possible, we just need a Way that lets you gain a Victory card, or lets the other players gain a card, or lets you trash one of your cards.

[scolapasta]

Instead of "first", Champion could also just remove the initial +1 Action, no? Maybe with an extra helping parenthesis.

"For the rest of the game, when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you, and when you play an Action (including this), +1 Action."

[Donald X.]

* Merchant being played as a result of a Silver being played (and Sauna-trashing Catacombs to gain and Innovation-play Merchant) means that you do get +$1. Can you confirm this, Donald?

* With Enchantress, if you play Militia as your first card, and the Reactions to this leads to you playing a Black Cat or Sheepdog*, this is the first time you would resolve a played card, so the Black Cat/Sheepdog gets Enchanted, not the Militia. Can you confirm this, Donald?

For me these are not questions about how exactly playing a card works; they're questions about the specific wordings of these two specific cards.

The Enchantress case is easier. If you announce a Militia, put it on the table, and then happen to resolve another card ahead of it, and later we ask, what was the first card you played that turn, I think anyone would answer, it was the Militia. It wasn't the first card done, but e.g. if you Throne Room a Militia, you played Throne Room first, even though Militia finished resolving first. So for Enchantress, the "first" action is the first one announced. The Militia is what gets enchanted.

It's not the same question for Merchant (we aren't asking, what if you play a different Silver in the middle). We still have this "the first time" phrasing, but this is the first Silver. Militia wasn't around when it was announced, but that seems okay; when we're ready to get money from Merchants, the Merchant has happened, and this is the first Silver. So, you get the +$1.

[Jeebus]

Right, the Sauna/Merchant question is not about whether it was the first Silver; it's just a coincidence that it shares the "first time" wording with Enchantress. Like you said, the issue is that Merchant has not been played when the Silver is announced. But okay, the Merchant gets played in the window where we're resolving "after resolving the played card" abilities, so it's not too late.

But how is the Enchantress scenario different? Yes, Enchantress cares what the first card you play this turn is. But what does "play" mean? Sauna, Enchantress and Moat all say "when you play", but it's now been established that they all mean different things. Sauna means "after resolving the played card", Moat means "before resolving the played card" -- and Enchantress means "when you would resolve the played card", right? That's when Enchantress triggers, along with any Way, and then we choose which to resolve first.

Throne Room + Militia is not a relevant comparison, since the Throne Room is the first card that gets to the "when you would resolve" step. In the Black Cat scenario, the Militia is the first card that gets announced, but the Black Cat is the first card that gets to the "when you would resolve" step. And that's when Enchantress triggers.

Enchantress says: "the first time [you] play an Action card".
Going by how all other cards work (model B), this should mean "the first time you would resolve a played Action card". But based on what you're saying, it seems instead that it means "when you would resolve the first Action card you 'played' this turn". The past tense is then important; Enchantress looks back, since it's now been established that it did not trigger when the card was announced. So it has to look back to see which card was first announced. And "played" also has a unique meaning here; it means announced ("started playing").

So I guess Enchantress says: "when you would resolve the first Action card you started playing this turn".

[Donald X.]

So I guess Enchantress says: "when you would resolve the first Action card you started playing this turn".

"The first card you played" can't be the "first one you completely resolved," since Enchantress has to happen before then. So it's stuck being something else. For communicating the normal effects to people, the text on Enchantress seems fine. For this exotic scenario, yes, it's referring to the first card you announced. That's the card people will think is the first card. Because it is, it's the first card.

[Jeebus]

True, Enchantress could definitely not look at "the first card you completely resolved". But it could look at "the first card you're about to resolve", since that's when it actually kicks in.

But anyway, I assume this means the same for all cards that care about the first card you play.

So with Citadel and the exact same scenario (Militia... Black Cat), it's the Militia that gets repeated, even though you played a Black Cat before you resolved the Militia.

With Crossroads, if you play a Kiln first, then play Crossroads A, then gain Crossroads B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Crossroads A, it's Crossroads A that gives you +3 Actions (not that it would make a difference probably).

Outpost would work the same as Crossroads (and this time it would definitely not make a difference).

Conspirator cares that you've played 3 or more Action cards. You play Kiln, then play Conspirator A, then gain Conspirator B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Conspirator A. When you resolve Conspirator B, you have indeed announced 3 Action cards this turn, so Conspirator B gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. Then you resolve Conspirator A, and it also gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. You actually end up with +2 Cards/+2 Actions!

[Donald X.]

But anyway, I assume this means the same for all cards that care about the first card you play.

So with Citadel and the exact same scenario (Militia... Black Cat), it's the Militia that gets repeated, even though you played a Black Cat before you resolved the Militia.

Yes.

With Crossroads, if you play a Kiln first, then play Crossroads A, then gain Crossroads B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Crossroads A, it's Crossroads A that gives you +3 Actions (not that it would make a difference probably).

Outpost would work the same as Crossroads (and this time it would definitely not make a difference).

Conspirator cares that you've played 3 or more Action cards. You play Kiln, then play Conspirator A, then gain Conspirator B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Conspirator A. When you resolve Conspirator B, you have indeed announced 3 Action cards this turn, so Conspirator B gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. Then you resolve Conspirator A, and it also gives you +1 Card/+1 Action. You actually end up with +2 Cards/+2 Actions!

That all looks good.

[Jeebus]

With Crossroads, if you play a Kiln first, then play Crossroads A, then gain Crossroads B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Crossroads A, it's Crossroads A that gives you +3 Actions (not that it would make a difference probably).

Outpost would work the same as Crossroads (and this time it would definitely not make a difference).

Looking at this again. The above is actually wrong. Both Crossroads would fail to give you +3 Actions, since it would not be the first time you played a Crossroads. Outpost is similar, you wouldn't get any extra turns.
EDIT: Looks like what I wrote originally is correct.

Additionally, the same can happen with Scepter and Fool's Gold, but not with Innovation (since they are Treasures); we need Way of the Mouse.
- Play Kiln, play a card, gaining a copy, now react with Sheepdog/Falconer. Through Way of the Mouse you can end up playing a Scepter, and can now replay the played card before it's resolved.
- Play Fool's Gold, gaining a copy, end up playing another Fool's Gold: both played Fool's Golds will give +$4. EDIT: Only one will give +$4.

It can also happen to Kiln itself, via Urchin. Urchin in play, play Kiln, play an Attack card, resolving Urchin to gain Mercenary. React with Sheepdog/Falconer. Now resolve Kiln. The "next played card" is the Attack card, even though you resolved Sheepdog first.

[majiponi]

With Crossroads, if you play a Kiln first, then play Crossroads A, then gain Crossroads B and play it via Innovation, then resolve Crossroads A, it's Crossroads A that gives you +3 Actions (not that it would make a difference probably).

Outpost would work the same as Crossroads (and this time it would definitely not make a difference).

Looking at this again. The above is actually wrong. Both Crossroads would fail to give you +3 Actions, since it would not be the first time you played a Crossroads. Outpost is similar, you wouldn't get any extra turns.

Why?  Crossroads A is the first Crossroads you've played, so even though you resolved Crossroads B, A gives you +3 Actions.

[Jeebus]

Why?  Crossroads A is the first Crossroads you've played, so even though you resolved Crossroads B, A gives you +3 Actions.

Hmm, actually I see now that the card text is kind of confusing. I was thinking about it one way when I posted in March and another way yesterday. Yesterday I interpreted it as "if you only played one Crossroads", but clearly that's wrong.
 
If the card text had been "if this is the first Crossroads you played" (like you wrote), you would clearly get +3 Actions from Crossroads A. But that text would be wrong, because it would refer to the card and so you would get +6 Actions with Throne Room.

Instead it says "if this is the first time you played a Crossroads". If the ruling is that Crossroads A is the "first time", the word "this" must refer to the time you announced it, even though that has already past (with Crossroads B in between) by the time we execute that sentence.

I would prefer that "play" meant "announce and resolve", and "played" meant "announced and resolved". This would be more in line with the rulebook definition of "play" and with the actual card texts. "This" on Crossroads would actually refer to "this", since you would be resolving it in that instant. Kiln+Conspirator+Innovation would activate once instead of twice, which I think most people would intutively assume anyway.

But now that Donald has ruled this way, I assume it must be that Crossroads A gives you +3 Actions.

Fool's Gold and Outpost then both work once, instead of what I wrote. Scepter and Urchin work as I wrote.