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Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 60736 times)

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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #300 on: March 15, 2020, 08:02:20 am »
+1

Stampede feels if anything too powerful for 5/2 openings? But that's too obvious. It must have been playtested, and it has to be OK despite my intuition.
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #301 on: March 15, 2020, 08:37:36 am »
0

5/2 with stampede turn 1 means [...]
If you want 5/0 anyway, you can do it just for the hell of it.
Not just for the hell of it: if you only want to spend $5, you get to keep one of the Horses for later.

You can do that, but that would mean leaving two coppers on the top of your deck rather than in your discard pile. Which might or might not be worth the extra horse in your deck.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #302 on: March 15, 2020, 09:35:40 am »
+4

It occurs to me that discard attacks would not play nicely with this event.  After cleanup, you'll have a hand of 5 Horses.  If you are able to play all five on your next hand, you'll effectively start with 10 cards.  On the other hand, if you have to discard down to 3 cards, then you'll only have six cards in hand after playing the remaining three Horses.  Minion would be especially cruel after buying Stampede

Other than the fact that you have no junk cards in hand; I think a Militia or Minion against 5 Horses is actually less harsh than it would be against 5 other non-junk cards that you want. Normally if a good action is discarded, it means one fewer times that you get to play it this game; it misses the shuffle. But with one-shots, Horse or otherwise, missing the shuffle isnít as bad, because either way you end up playing it one time total. It delays the card getting played; but with a normal good action, it doesnít just delay it, it cancels it.
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #303 on: March 15, 2020, 10:45:30 am »
+1

Against Militia, half the Stampede acts as a defense: you end up with a 6 card hand. The other half of the Stampede gets saved for later.

You paid $5 for this result.

Was that result better than buying something else for $5, and having a 3 card hand after the militia, and not having half the Stampede for later?

Well that depends, but it certainly can be most of the time.

Rule of thumb: If you can proc Stampede (<= 5 fewer cards in play) and you have a payload to draw and there's no other thing worth $5 you really need right at that moment, it's well worth the buy.

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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #304 on: March 15, 2020, 11:32:43 am »
+1

I can imagine that a 2/5 opening of Chapel/Stampede would be fairly powerful for increasing reliability. You will be able to trash all Estates (and a Copper) turn 3, 64% of the time. Of the remaining 36%, 27% of the time you can still trash two of your Estates.

This can be really powerful if you get lucky in the opening, but only when paired with certain cards.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 11:34:32 am by hhelibebcnofnena »
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #305 on: March 15, 2020, 12:52:25 pm »
+2

if you only want to spend $5, you get to keep one of the Horses for later.
You can do that, but that would mean leaving two coppers on the top of your deck rather than in your discard pile. Which might or might not be worth the extra horse in your deck.
I thought about that a bit, and figured it's so early coppers are still a better than the average card in your deck.
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #306 on: March 15, 2020, 12:54:01 pm »
+2

Having thought about this a bit more...

Gameplay: if playing a game with both Stampede and Tactician available, which would you buy, and why?

Artwork: never mind the number of horses, how are you going to domesticate those wild horses before your opponent has finished their turn?
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #307 on: March 15, 2020, 12:57:30 pm »
+8

The horses are fine, why are people even complaining about the horses. They can't all be the best horses ever.
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MiX

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #308 on: March 15, 2020, 01:05:49 pm »
+5

The horses are fine, why are people even complaining about the horses. They can't all be the best horses ever.

The horses actually are the best Horses that exist. Just not the best horse, as Trusty Steed still exists.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #309 on: March 15, 2020, 01:36:32 pm »
+1

Gameplay: if playing a game with both Stampede and Tactician available, which would you buy, and why?

Why not both?? Generate 5 in a turn with < 4 cards, (e.g Festival, then Mandarin*) then play Tactician and buy Stampede, next turn: 2 Actions, 2 buys, 15 cards in your hand!

* In this specific scenario, if you happened to already have a horse in hand, use Mandarin to put on top of your deck, actually start with 16 cards
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #310 on: March 15, 2020, 08:17:24 pm »
0

The horses are fine, why are people even complaining about the horses. They can't all be the best horses ever.

The horses actually are the best Horses that exist. Just not the best horse, as Trusty Steed still exists.
Also Destrier 8)
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popsofctown

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #311 on: March 15, 2020, 10:05:47 pm »
0

I feel like a dunce, I don't get why this card is so great.  The key price point in dominion is to hit 5$ and buy one of the powerful 5$ actions that are key to engines.  If I buy this in any deck, I guarantee that my next turn I will hit 5$.  That's great! But uh.  I spent 5$ and a turn.  Aren't I kind of just spinning my wheels?  If my turn ends up being <stampede> <5$> action, but I could have instead had <5$ action> <4$ action>, wouldn't that have been better?  Maybe you can get to 5$ without playing out all of the Horses, then we're replacing that 3-4$ turn with Experiment and like, people say Experiment is fine, it's pretty fine, I haven't mastered when and when not to buy it but I get it.  I don't think 3$ Event "gain 2 horses" would have gotten the positive response people are putting forth so there must be something I'm missing.

Tactician's built in +buy is pretty key.  You could get access to some +buy and make this card good, I can see that.  Pay 5$ for this, draw up to 10 cards, play +buy, reach 10$, and you can buy two 5$ actions, over two turns.  It is not necessarily the case those two turns would have done that without the help if you're colliding Villages with Smithies.  This just doesn't seem worth it on the boards where the source of +buy isn't inherently attractive, but if it is, this does seem like a cool thing to do.

As for the use of skipping a Duchy for bomby double or triple Province turns, the restriction clause seems pretty likely to keep that from happening.

BMU is increasingly a battered and bruised underdog I like to route for and I want to hope this card is a good equalizer for that deck.  I think gaining nothing but a province across two turns is better than a 5$ silver for a BMU deck that has its desired terminal density.  The opportunity cost for engines is higher.
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Willvon

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #312 on: March 15, 2020, 10:15:15 pm »
+1

So if I am not mistaken, so far we have seen all of the teaser phrases but 2:

"5 or fewer" - Stampede
"$1 less per"
"a different thing" - Scrap
"an unused Action"
"either now or" - Barge
"hand three times" - Mastermind
"instead, and vice-versa" - Way of the Chameleon
"instead of paying" - Animal Fair
"province, a duchy" - Alliance
"they discard their" - Coven

Let me know if there is something that I missed.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #313 on: March 15, 2020, 10:21:40 pm »
0

So if I am not mistaken, so far we have seen all of the teaser phrases but 2:

"5 or fewer" - Stampede
"$1 less per"
"a different thing" - Scrap
"an unused Action"
"either now or" - Barge
"hand three times" - Mastermind
"instead, and vice-versa" - Way of the Chameleon
"instead of paying" - Animal Fair
"province, a duchy" - Alliance
"they discard their" - Coven

Let me know if there is something that I missed.

Correct

"$1 less per" is probably going to be a card whose cost is variable, similar to Peddler, i.e., "This card costs $1 less per [something]".  Probably something different from Peddler ("per card you gained this turn", maybe?), but I can't figure out what would make sense with "an unused Action"
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #314 on: March 15, 2020, 11:08:11 pm »
0

I feel like a dunce, I don't get why this card is so great.  The key price point in dominion is to hit 5$ and buy one of the powerful 5$ actions that are key to engines.  If I buy this in any deck, I guarantee that my next turn I will hit 5$.  That's great! But uh.  I spent 5$ and a turn.  Aren't I kind of just spinning my wheels?  If my turn ends up being <stampede> <5$> action, but I could have instead had <5$ action> <4$ action>, wouldn't that have been better?  Maybe you can get to 5$ without playing out all of the Horses, then we're replacing that 3-4$ turn with Experiment and like, people say Experiment is fine, it's pretty fine, I haven't mastered when and when not to buy it but I get it.  I don't think 3$ Event "gain 2 horses" would have gotten the positive response people are putting forth so there must be something I'm missing.

Tactician's built in +buy is pretty key.  You could get access to some +buy and make this card good, I can see that.  Pay 5$ for this, draw up to 10 cards, play +buy, reach 10$, and you can buy two 5$ actions, over two turns.  It is not necessarily the case those two turns would have done that without the help if you're colliding Villages with Smithies.  This just doesn't seem worth it on the boards where the source of +buy isn't inherently attractive, but if it is, this does seem like a cool thing to do.

As for the use of skipping a Duchy for bomby double or triple Province turns, the restriction clause seems pretty likely to keep that from happening.

BMU is increasingly a battered and bruised underdog I like to route for and I want to hope this card is a good equalizer for that deck.  I think gaining nothing but a province across two turns is better than a 5$ silver for a BMU deck that has its desired terminal density.  The opportunity cost for engines is higher.

I wouldn't say I'm an expert player, but I think there are a couple of times you might want this in the draw-your-deck paradigm. One big advantage over tactician is that this is an event that's always available, so you can choose to give up your mediocre turn to have a great next turn; this would usually be later in the game when there isn't a 5 cost you really want instead. Think of why expedition is good; I think Expedition is usually better since there is no condition to meet, though. Another way to use it is early on in the game as a one-time effect to accelerate your next turn but with the very real opportunity cost of not getting a 5 cost right now; think of something like Madman helping you guarantee getting an extra play of your early trasher/junker/attack/payload. I agree with you that it's quite a bit better in the early game if you have +buy already.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #315 on: March 16, 2020, 03:02:47 am »
+11

Bonus Preview 10: Cardinal

Another thing Exile can do is be mean.



This eats cards like a Knight, but you can get them all back, at least until the pile runs out. It's annoying, then more annoying, then you are hoping it hits your Duchies for you.
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Barbarossa41

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #316 on: March 16, 2020, 03:15:05 am »
+1

That card is.... Interesting.


I immediately see all sorts of broken combos with Capitalism
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #317 on: March 16, 2020, 03:24:37 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 10: Cardinal

Another thing Exile can do is be mean.



This eats cards like a Knight, but you can get them all back, at least until the pile runs out. It's annoying, then more annoying, then you are hoping it hits your Duchies for you.

I knew there was going to be an Exile version of trashing attacks!

This seems like a very conditional card.  If your opponent is going heavy for Duchies, then it's likely to help them more than hurt them, by giving them a free Exile.  On the other hand, it could also be almost as good as a Knight in the early and mid-game, especially if your opponent isn't going for a Duchy-heavy strategy.  It would have an advantage over Knights in not triggering any when-trash effects, since nothing's actually being trashed, but that wouldn't be a very strong advantage in most games (which is presumably why it has +$2, is only $4, and lacks the Knights' mutually assured destruction clause)  Overall, though, it seems like a pretty good attack for the price, especially early in the game where getting $5 or $6 is difficult, so getting expensive cards Exiled would hurt a bit
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #318 on: March 16, 2020, 03:37:57 am »
+2

So are there any more previews after this? If there are, I would like to see the cards with the teaser text we haven't seen yet, namely '$1 less per' and 'an unused Action'.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #319 on: March 16, 2020, 04:25:52 am »
+1

So are there any more previews after this? If there are, I would like to see the cards with the teaser text we haven't seen yet, namely '$1 less per' and 'an unused Action'.
I expect to do a few more previews; you'll probably have to wait for the rulebook / release to see those two.
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Freddy10

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #320 on: March 16, 2020, 06:28:10 am »
+1

I already can see people watching their Mountebanks going to exile on T3 after opening 5/-  ;D
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #321 on: March 16, 2020, 07:10:38 am »
+8

I already can see people watching their Mountebanks going to exile on T3 after opening 5/-  ;D
Still better than being trashed and replaced by a Duchy...
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Hibernator

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #322 on: March 16, 2020, 07:16:02 am »
+4

Given that a cardinal is a bird and that the expansion is about animals, did you intend this card to depict a bird but the artitst went his/her own way?
Thank you
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D782802859

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #323 on: March 16, 2020, 08:08:41 am »
0

Given that a cardinal is a bird and that the expansion is about animals, did you intend this card to depict a bird but the artitst went his/her own way?
Thank you
Given the fact that religious cards are always trashing based, and Exile is similar to trashing, this is unlikely. Plus, Cardinal doesn't really sound like an attack.
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #324 on: March 16, 2020, 08:21:06 am »
0

I would assume the other religious card, Sanctuary, uses the new Exile mechanic as well.

(What would a little red bird be about here anyway? That's not a relevant archetype like Owl or Falcon or whatever.)
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