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Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 127642 times)

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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #200 on: March 11, 2020, 01:28:31 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #201 on: March 11, 2020, 01:31:36 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck! (No, you don't actually play it from your deck, you reveal it first.)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 02:52:55 pm by Jeebus »
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #202 on: March 11, 2020, 01:38:48 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

The closest examples I can find are cases involving gaining and without a "may": "If X, gain Y. Otherwise, do Z".

In these cases if the Y pile is empty, such that you cannot gain Y, I'm fairly certain you wouldn't do Z.

Example: Jester: "Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If it's a Victory card they gain a Curse; otherwise they gain a copy of the discarded card or you do, your choice."

So discard a Province, no curses left, there's no way you'd gain a Province.

(other such examples are Tormentor and Leprechaun)

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 01:41:38 pm by scolapasta »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #203 on: March 11, 2020, 02:15:09 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 02:17:37 pm by GendoIkari »
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popsofctown

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #204 on: March 11, 2020, 02:29:48 pm »
+1

tfw you Freudian slip one of DXV's other games
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ben_king

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #205 on: March 11, 2020, 02:48:43 pm »
+2

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.
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michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #206 on: March 11, 2020, 02:54:52 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

Also a programmer, also how I interpreted it  ;D

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

I thought there had been a ruling about when a card is revealed, the default is that it returns to where it was revealed from, assuming the effect that revealed it didn't provide further instruction. I'm pretty sure it came up around Herald.

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Well I guess that settles it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #207 on: March 11, 2020, 02:58:32 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

The reason it doesn't use the Vassal wording is that Vassal is already messy with Village Green, and the idea was not to replicate that with Gamble.

The wording of Gamble is ambiguous, but a clear ruling has been made: unplayed Treasures and Actions are discarded.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #208 on: March 11, 2020, 02:58:59 pm »
0

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!
No, Herald did also.

D'oh. I thought Gamble played the card directly from your deck for some reason. But of course it's just like Herald, it plays a card revealed from your deck. Golem and Venture also do this, although not the top card.

EDIT: But Vassal is the only card that plays a card from your discard pile (and will remain so it seems).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:03:58 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #209 on: March 11, 2020, 03:00:53 pm »
0

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #210 on: March 11, 2020, 03:06:27 pm »
+2

Just thought of something: How does Village Green + Vassal work?  Taking the wording literally, it seems like Vassal would essentially allow you to play Village Green twice.  Vassal says "Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.", so it seems like you should be able to both play it with Vassal, and play the Reaction.  Or would the stop-moving rule apply here, and after VG's reaction Vassal can no longer put it into play?
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #211 on: March 11, 2020, 03:07:43 pm »
0

The reason it doesn't use the Vassal wording is that Vassal is already messy with Village Green,
and with Faithful Hound

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #212 on: March 11, 2020, 03:09:48 pm »
0

Just thought of something: How does Village Green + Vassal work?  Taking the wording literally, it seems like Vassal would essentially allow you to play Village Green twice.  Vassal says "Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.", so it seems like you should be able to both play it with Vassal, and play the Reaction.  Or would the stop-moving rule apply here, and after VG's reaction Vassal can no longer put it into play?

Yes, this is like Vassal + Faithful Hound. You may resolve the Faithful Hound, setting it aside, and then play it with Vassal (failing to put it into play).
With Village Green, you may resolve the Village Green, playing it, and then play it with Vassal (failing to put it into play - but of course it's already there).

Edit: I assume that a "Mining Village Green" played this way, if not trashed the first time, is lost track of when Vassal plays it, so it can't trash itself. Hmm, no I think it should work actually.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:20:03 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #213 on: March 11, 2020, 05:45:28 pm »
+3

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.
And use the small font. The card just wouldn't have existed with that wording, because I vowed not to use the small font.

You can also not put +1 Buy on its own line, but it's not delightful to make exceptions there.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #214 on: March 11, 2020, 05:51:37 pm »
0

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.
And use the small font. The card just wouldn't have existed with that wording, because I vowed not to use the small font.

You can also not put +1 Buy on its own line, but it's not delightful to make exceptions there.

"If you didn't, discard it" would actually be enough. Not sure if that would fit.

Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #215 on: March 12, 2020, 03:00:08 am »
+18

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #216 on: March 12, 2020, 03:15:47 am »
+5

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.

Costing only 3, this seems quite good compared to duplicate, although I do see 2 downsides: you can't get victory cards with camel train and you have to know what card you want in advance (which admittedly could be a big difference in certain cases). Oh, and I just realized another caveat with exile...if the kingdom pile runs out, then you end up with not getting any exiled copies into your deck; imagine someone playing this multiple times late in the game on something like King's Court but then your opponent empties the pile leaving you with King's Courts stuck in exile. It's the ultimate "Yes, I definitely buy this to deny my opponent 3 copies of a card" (probably won't be too common but certainly could show up). The free gold at some point in the future is a pretty decent bonus, though; if you do end up wanting 1 gold, you will usually be happy with 2. If you don't want the gold, you aren't forced to ever take it.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #217 on: March 12, 2020, 03:16:46 am »
0

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.

Yes!  My prediction that there'd be something similar to Lurker using the Exile mat was correct!  This card looks pretty convenient.  Would be great when you're trying to end the game on piles and don't want to end up with a bunch of useless cards in your deck, but also great for getting extra copies of cards you want in your deck, and therefore are going to be buying anyways
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #218 on: March 12, 2020, 03:25:43 am »
0

Costing only 3, this seems quite good compared to duplicate, although I do see 2 downsides: you can't get victory cards with camel train and you have to know what card you want in advance (which admittedly could be a big difference in certain cases). Oh, and I just realized another caveat with exile...if the kingdom pile runs out, then you end up with not getting any exiled copies into your deck; imagine someone playing this multiple times late in the game on something like King's Court but then your opponent empties the pile leaving you with King's Courts stuck in exile. It's the ultimate "Yes, I definitely buy this to deny my opponent 3 copies of a card" (probably won't be too common but certainly could show up). The free gold at some point in the future is a pretty decent bonus, though; if you do end up wanting 1 gold, you will usually be happy with 2. If you don't want the gold, you aren't forced to ever take it.

Or even just your opponent using their own Camel Train to Exile the last KC - sure, they won't be able to use it, but they're keeping you from using your three KC's.  I suppose you'd generally want to be careful about using this if the pile is getting low and you're not going to be able to buy a copy that same turn for this very reason

I wonder how often you'd have a situation where someone uses Camel Train to Exile one or more copies of a card they want, and then buy that same card in their Buy phase to immediately discard from the Exile mat.  Seems like that would happen fairly often

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #219 on: March 12, 2020, 03:28:42 am »
+1

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
Exiling is not gaining; this has been covered in these forums.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #220 on: March 12, 2020, 03:33:31 am »
0

So, the flavor text mentions 9 animals: Elephant, mice, horses, dogs, goat, rats, fox, camels, and turtle

Of those animals, we've seen 5: Camels, Horses, (Sheep)dogs, Rats, and Turtle, the last two as Ways, and the leaked Ways list also has Goat and Mouse, so, all but the Elephant and the Fox.  I'm wondering if those are also going to be cards now (maybe both attack cards?)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 03:35:26 am by mxdata »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #221 on: March 12, 2020, 03:34:16 am »
0

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
Exiling is not gaining; this has been covered in these forums.
Just confirming that I was remembering that correctly, thanks :)
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LordClockworks

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #222 on: March 12, 2020, 06:47:01 am »
+3

Camel Train seems to be a cool new way of hoarding unused cards as well: For example you can hoard 10 coppers for Fountain, a mountain of useless actions for Vineyard or a mountain of silvers for Feodum and skip the pain of having to draw all of it. Or and you can simply hoard anything useless for your Gardens as well!
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #223 on: March 12, 2020, 06:59:27 am »
+1

So some people will use Camel Train to stockpile stuff they don't want in Exile? I see entertaining possibilities for a novel use of Swindler, here. (-8<
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #224 on: March 12, 2020, 07:03:42 am »
+1

Also, is it my imagination or is Camel Train the sweetest support for Gardens in the whole game?
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