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Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 137931 times)

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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2020, 03:18:15 am »
+1

Gamble + Village Green would be a decent combination.  Reveal the VG and play it, choosing the "next turn" option

Gamble + Patron would also be a good combination, since you'd be able to both reveal it for +1 coffers, and play it for +$2 and +1 villager, with the $2 returning what you spent on Gamble, netting you +1 coffer and +1 villager
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2020, 03:19:43 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2020, 03:28:57 am »
+3

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier
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crlundy

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2020, 03:49:03 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.

Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier

Or you've drawn your deck already, and you can gain a card to your discard pile and play it right away with Gamble.
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2020, 03:56:56 am »
+1

oh i guess if you have +buy token on Duchess tou can piledrive them (but why)
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #180 on: March 11, 2020, 03:57:27 am »
0

ah, no, sorry
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #181 on: March 11, 2020, 04:25:55 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier

I can see you could get a loop of quite a few iterations but you won’t get an infinite loop here - you need to keep generating +2 to keep buying Gamble, and you need to keep gaining something, otherwise your deck eventually runs out. Even for cards that give you both of those things, there are only a finite number of them in the supply.
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #182 on: March 11, 2020, 04:56:53 am »
0

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DEGwer

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #183 on: March 11, 2020, 05:04:54 am »
+5

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:50:50 am by DEGwer »
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DEGwer

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #184 on: March 11, 2020, 05:26:52 am »
+1

here's one: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17909.msg740343#msg740343

as far as i am aware there's more

It doesn't work now because the Overlord has changed. It does not trash itself now.
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #185 on: March 11, 2020, 05:56:17 am »
+3

More practically relevant: whenever the mean $-producing-power of cards in your deck is > 2, you can and should gamble through your entire deck every turn. You can do this even if you draw a dud. Say you only have 4$. You just gamblegamblegamblegamblegamblegamble and (if the order of cards is not sufficiently unfortunate) end up with 4$ + <buying power in your deck> - 2*<number of cards in your deck>.

This means you can construct an arbitrarily strong deck without any draw in it. If you have, say, counterfeit, that is already enough. Trash your coppers, buy enough golds, and there you go – you'll even get the extra +buys by flipping counterfeits with Gamble. You can also mix in lots of terminal +$ like wine merchant.
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #186 on: March 11, 2020, 06:02:42 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #187 on: March 11, 2020, 06:07:39 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #188 on: March 11, 2020, 06:47:27 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on

Yes, I see, having played the Platina mid-loop. Neat - and only requires KC, Lurker, Watchtower, Mandarin, a card that gives tokens, Colony/Platinum and two events!
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DEGwer

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #189 on: March 11, 2020, 07:26:45 am »
+2

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on

Yes, I see, having played the Platina mid-loop. Neat - and only requires KC, Lurker, Watchtower, Mandarin, a card that gives tokens, Colony/Platinum and two events!

Actually, Platinums are not necessary because we can just replace them by bunch of Golds. Tokens can also be omitted because we can do like KC(gamble)-KC-Lurker-Margrave-Lurker. We can do similar things via Toil. Furthermore, we don't even need Mandarin; if we played some number of Priests, we can afford to buy Gamble and Bonfire by Bonfire itself (although I don't like infinite loops that depend on Priests).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:31:04 am by DEGwer »
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #190 on: March 11, 2020, 07:38:34 am »
+1

and we can have most of the cards from a single black market
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trivialknot

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #191 on: March 11, 2020, 09:57:09 am »
+1

Thoughts on bonus previews:

Way of the Chameleon: It seems really powerful with non-terminal money cards like Courtier or Coven, but in the typical case it probably just ensures that there are even more options for draw.  And you can turn your overdraw into $$.  Overall, I suspect this is less zany than it first appears.  But I'm sure my friends and I will have fun arguing about the rules.

Way of the Rat: I had a fan event that was pretty similar to this.  TBH, it was a dud, just not very interesting--sometimes cards were cheaper, and that was it.  I think this one's a bit more interesting though, because it costs an action rather than coin.

Village Green: Maybe we can revisit those days when people thought Tunnel was really powerful, and tried triggering the reaction every way imaginable.  And then people seem to have figured out that tunnels aren't that strong.  But maybe this could be strong?  Well it's a village+, so the floor is pretty high.

Alliance: I love this.  Something that really appeals to me about Dominion, is this narrative arc where you build up, and then your deck slowly collapses as you cash out.  Alliance offers the option for even more dramatic collapse.  I sure hope this is good sometimes.

Gamble: The first main use I see is to clear out the bottom of your shuffle, especially if you know what's down there and don't want it to skip.  The second main use is, when drawing deck, to play something you just gained.  Like Innovation.  Innovation is good, so I'm sure this is good as well.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #192 on: March 11, 2020, 10:59:34 am »
+1

Seems like a really good use would be with cards like Barge or Mastermind.  If you bought them and topdecked them, then bought Gamble, you can get them played right at the start of your next turn

Way of the Turtle + Gamble would be really strong, especially with topdecking
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naitchman

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #193 on: March 11, 2020, 11:02:34 am »
+3

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

Nice loop.

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #194 on: March 11, 2020, 11:13:36 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

Wow, playing Actions in your Buy phase seems to be the new thing. Before we had Capitalism, Innovation and Scepter. Before that, getting +Actions in your Buy phase was some weird edge case scenario that people asked about and was only possible with +1 Action token on Crown or a split pile, or an Echanted Crown.

Now we have, so far, also Gamble and Toil. And with Ways, Crown can do Action-y things in your Buy phase.

I also think this is the first card that directly lets you play a Treasure in the second part of your Buy phase (when you're buying cards). Before, this was only possible with Innovation in combination with Crown, Black Market or Storyteller.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:15:07 am by Jeebus »
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #195 on: March 11, 2020, 11:17:19 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

Nice loop.

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.

I made the chances of getting the exact five cards required in any given kingdom as just over one in five trillion. Plus you’ve got the two events, I suppose, but my statistics A-Level was too long ago...
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #196 on: March 11, 2020, 11:40:15 am »
+4

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.
Really, anything with more than 3 specific card-shaped things is not worth considering outside of puzzles.

That said, Gamble + Mandarin is definitely a combo worth keeping in mind, especially with Treasures that make +buy. Just imagine a Mandarin/Capital/Gamble deck...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 am by faust »
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dsplaisted

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #197 on: March 11, 2020, 12:04:06 pm »
+2

When he heard about the theme of this set he wanted to know if there would be a chicken card.

Can you spoil any chicken-related cards?
I don't know if this will do much for you, but there's one in the art for Livery.

Well, it's better than nothing.  :)

How about Way of the Chicken as a promo card?
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michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #198 on: March 11, 2020, 01:14:42 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #199 on: March 11, 2020, 01:20:18 pm »
+6

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.
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