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Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 33305 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2020, 07:55:45 pm »
+1

Game design isn't like the Ten Commandments coming down from heaven, things are always in flux. The fact that DXV changes and updates the rules is great and should be appreciated as not every designer does this.

I kind of feel like you're misrepresenting what I said. Of course it's great when a new rule improves the game. For instance, the initial rule that TR+TR+Duration+Duration keeps both TR's in play was very confusing, and ultimately a simpler and much better rule was made. But... I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible - meaning a rule change should have a good reason. Nobody was complaining about the Militia rule, and nobody expressed confusion about it. Sure, many people were probably playing it wrong, but I guarantee you that many people are playing lots of these rules wrong, especially lose-track stuff, so I don't see that as a good reason to change the rules. Whoever wonders about a rule, can ask about it online, or probably more likely will search for it online, and will then find contradicting statements whenever there has been a rule change.

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2020, 07:56:41 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2020, 08:02:22 pm »
+1

I could see someone reading that rule and just assuming that it applies to Militia, simply because both the rule and Militia deal with discarding multiple cards. A casual, non-precise reading, could cause some people to think of the rules as instructions on how to discard multiple cards; not realizing that there is a potential different between discarding multiple cards “at once” vs “one at a time”.

Maybe so, but I still think that this idea would be 90% because of Militia's actual card text, and 10% because of that rule. I see good reason, and have always seen good reason, for saying that Militia discards all at once, because yes that's the intuitive reading based on Militia's text. I just don't think "it should match the rulebook" is any kind of reason to rule that way, since the rulebook actually doesn't say that.

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2020, 09:00:08 pm »
+1

My guess for the original ruling of Militia being one-at-a-time: Draw to X is one at a time, so why not discard down to X? I personally think that makes sense.
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2020, 09:49:42 pm »
+1

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.
Some of us are involved in programming language specification...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2020, 01:32:13 am »
+1

My guess for the original ruling of Militia being one-at-a-time: Draw to X is one at a time, so why not discard down to X? I personally think that makes sense.

I don't think the comparison works, because "+3 cards" is also one at a time, while "discard 3 cards" is not.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2020, 02:03:38 am »
0

None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received

That's definitely not true. There are a handful of cards which combo differently between editions as a result of intentional functional changes they received. I already listed some of them for you, such as Possession, which will interact with cards which cost/give debt in a completely different way, and Trade Route, which combos with cards like Hunting Grounds in 2E but not in 1E.


Or if they do, it's extremely marginal. That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.

"Marginal" in this case seems like a matter of opinion. I don't personally see how it's any less marginal than Trade Route working with on-trash VP gainers differently.

Posession handles an entire mechanic differently depending on which version you use. To me, that's far less marginal than this Way of the Chameleon discrepancy.
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segura

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2020, 02:31:43 am »
0

But... I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible - meaning a rule change should have a good reason.
Nah. Dominion rules should be as much in flux as possible, in order to account for new or hitherto unseen combinations and interactions that require clarifications, amendments and changes.
That's simply how evolving card games (e.g. also CCGs and LCGs) are, rules do become more complex over time and change.

The option that you implicitly advocate is the lazy one (which is thankfully not the case here): a designer not caring about unclear stuff and updating the rules. The notion that you can see everything about something which is still evolving in advance is pretty unrealistic.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2020, 02:57:19 am »
+3

I simply share the opinion that Donald used to have. None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received, or if they do, it's extremely marginal. (Masq is the obvious exception, although still pretty marginal, but it was errataed to avoid that very combo.) That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.
I still heavily prefer not having errata. I just eventually hit the point of the errata being sufficiently necessary.

Errata is less of a problem today than it used to be; everyone has the combined knowledge of humanity in their pocket, and can look it up. It's still way better to not have it though. And I mean, that's my direction here with Militia; the rulebook says that you get to see only the top card, I want that to be the rule and to make sense.

You could make a thread in rules for this, present your case for your side; this thread is for bonus previews.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2020, 02:58:26 am »
+2

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?
I can say it. People in general heavily prefer not reading the rulebooks. You do really get something from having an intuitive result.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2020, 03:00:27 am »
+3

None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received

That's definitely not true. There are a handful of cards which combo differently between editions as a result of intentional functional changes they received. I already listed some of them for you, such as Possession, which will interact with cards which cost/give debt in a completely different way, and Trade Route, which combos with cards like Hunting Grounds in 2E but not in 1E.
And now Cellar (and Storeroom and Storyteller and Oracle) is functionally different with Way of the Chameleon (sadly).
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2020, 03:01:22 am »
+19

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

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AJD

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2020, 03:04:10 am »
+1

I understand why it isn't, but given this it's kind of a shame that Populate is gain one from each Action pile, rather than just from each Kingdom pile.

(and uh I guess I'm glad that Alliance doesn't give you a Curse as well, although that would be cute for completeness's sake)
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2020, 03:15:11 am »
+1

The most common times this will bought will probably be when you are able to get the last province...if you're getting provinces as your main point source, the person who empties the last province(s) can now get 10 points for 10 coins instead of 6 points for 8 coins, since you don't mind the stop cards as much if you're trying to maximize points on your last 1-2 turns of the game. This will change the endgame math a bit. With 6 stop cards at once, I can't see you wanting to get this earlier over just Provinces unless you're playing something like a money deck with Palace, Gardens, etc.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2020, 03:15:50 am »
+2

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

The Bizarro Populate! 10 VP (under normal circumstances) for $10.

I wonder if we'll see a watchtower-like "exile on gain" that would make this a very attractive option.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2020, 03:19:06 am »
0

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

The Bizarro Populate! 10 VP (under normal circumstances) for $10.

I wonder if we'll see a watchtower-like "exile on gain" that would make this a very attractive option.

I've been wondering about an Exile version of Watchtower too.  It would seem to be an ideal fit for this event.  If you can instantly Exile them, then it's basically equivalent to a Colony for $1 less
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2020, 05:44:25 am »
0

So Alliance gives you 6 cards with 10 VP and 6$ among them. That's roughly 3 Harems + 3 Estates (+ 1VP).

Obviously good (1) in the end game when you just care about the VP and (2) if you can easily get rid of all the cards you don't want. Not so clear in many other cases.
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Oyvind

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2020, 07:58:51 am »
+3

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

I just want you to know that I’m extremely grateful for the extra effort you put in, not only previewing even more things, but also following the threads and clarifying things for us as we go! Is it possible to ask for a preview containing just the names of all the non-previewed cards from the expansion?

I have to reorganize my storage solution, so it would be an immensely helpful preview for me. I have everything so far, and I’m not planning on stopping. My 5-row BCW shoe box is packed, and I had to remove the randomizers earlier. Now I have to go to two (large e-raptor) boxes, so I’m really curious to see where to put everything.

A big THANK YOU, Donald! Both for the above-mentioned stuff and the fact that you’ve designed my favorite table-top game ever and continue to put out more cards. Fan for life, here!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2020, 08:11:08 am »
+5

Is it possible to ask for a preview containing just the names of all the non-previewed cards from the expansion?

Yes, it's possible to ask.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2020, 09:01:18 am »
+1

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?
I can say it. People in general heavily prefer not reading the rulebooks. You do really get something from having an intuitive result.

Sure. But if that's what LastFootnote was saying, he was undermining his own point, and you are undermining yours too, which was that the ruling should change because that's somehow what the rulebook says.

This has been one of the oddest conversations I've had here (which says a lot):

-The Militia rule needs to change because of what the rulebook says.
-The rulebook doesn't say that.
-People are not computers.
-Do you mean that people would misinterpret the rulebook?
-People don't read rulebooks.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 10:29:01 am by Jeebus »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2020, 10:46:23 am »
0

So far, we have seen: 15 Cards, leaving 15 for the release and remaining bonus previews; 5 Ways, leaving 15 for the release and remaining bonus previews; 4 Events, leaving 16 for the release and remaining bonus previews. With 8 days to go until the release (!), perhaps we could get 2 Cards, 2 Ways, 3 Events, and one day with just the names of the rest, leaving 13 of each for the release?

I don't have any specific things to ask for, though. I'm really enjoying them so far, and can't wait for the release! I always expect each expansion to be the last, so I am always pleasantly surprised when another one comes out.
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2020, 10:52:13 am »
+2

The most common times this will bought will probably be when you are able to get the last province...if you're getting provinces as your main point source, the person who empties the last province(s) can now get 10 points for 10 coins instead of 6 points for 8 coins, since you don't mind the stop cards as much if you're trying to maximize points on your last 1-2 turns of the game. This will change the endgame math a bit. With 6 stop cards at once, I can't see you wanting to get this earlier over just Provinces unless you're playing something like a money deck with Palace, Gardens, etc.

This changes the “Penultimate Province Rule” equation considerably, since now your opponent could get up to 10pts even if there is no +Buy.

Things like this are why I absolutely love events and other “landscape” cards - rather than just adding one new aspect to the game, they completely change the balance of some or all other components in the game, providing massive strategic variety. I for one would be glad for an expansion of just landscapes. I certainly think there is potential for more Landmarks - you can make ordinarily unplayable cards a must-buy with one of those in the right circumstances.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2020, 11:03:31 am »
+6

Oh man, these 3am (for me) previews have been a trip. I woke up just long enough to read the text of this Event, then proceeded to dream about it the rest of the night.

Minotaur

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2020, 11:28:51 am »
0

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

If, say, Barren Village - Action-Ruins-Reaction - +2 Actions ///// If you discard this other than during cleanup, gain a Ruins.......

...then accountability with pre-existing discarding is a big issue.

So it's sort of forbidden for a mechanic like that to exist.  A card that worked this way would have to come with setup rules that warp the rules of the entire game.

Unless it's just a card that is just too awesome to not exist and then we have to retroactively change all of the rules, and now Dominion logs tell us ALL OF THE DISCARDS.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2020, 11:54:40 am »
+6

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

Militia's a debate because you can choose "now" for Village Green. The question is, "what if I discard down to three, but then I react and play a Village Green so I have 4 cards? Do I have to discard another one?" If they're discarded at once, and then reactions take effect, then the answer is "no, you've already discarded." But if they're discarded one-at-a-time, the answer is, "yes, you have finished discarding a card, and you have reacted to it. Now you have to check if there are more than 3 cards in your hand. There are, so discard another one."

If you have an opinion, you should go to the separate thread I started.
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