Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 17  All

Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 157969 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mxdata

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1190
  • Respect: +1335
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2020, 11:32:49 am »
+1

It's interesting that all the Reactions revealed so far in Menagerie are played rather than revealed, discarded, or set-aside.  So, now I'm wondering if the two we haven't seen yet will also be played

So, of the reactions revealed so far, we have three different triggers: when you gain a card, when someone else gains a victory card, and now when you discard.  I wonder if all five reactions will have different triggers

I believe he said on day 5 that four out of the five Reactions play themselves.

Ah, I must've missed that.  Cool!

I'm wondering if the reaction-by-playing is because of Ways?  Like, Village Green would've had to have worked this way for the same reason as Caravan Guard, but Black Cat and Sheepdog could just have easily worked by "set this aside", as far as the reaction itself goes.  However, by playing instead of setting aside, it allows the option of using a Way instead
Logged
They/them

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2020, 12:28:09 pm »
0

With Village Green and the newest Errata dealing with the discard pile, are you allowed to look through your entire discard pile any time you discard a Village Green (or Tunnel) except during Clean-up? Or only if you discarded multiple cards such that the Village Green (or Tunnel) is not on top?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

scolapasta

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 578
  • Respect: +734
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2020, 12:54:24 pm »
+3

BTW, great idea on the bonus previews! One a day is very fun, as it gives us something to all deliberate on, and maintains anticipation for tomorrow. I hope you're enjoying providing them as much as we are enjoying seeing them.
Logged
Feel free to join us at scolapasta's cards for discussion on any of my custom cards.

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2020, 01:26:16 pm »
+1

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

With Village Green and the newest Errata dealing with the discard pile, are you allowed to look through your entire discard pile any time you discard a Village Green (or Tunnel) except during Clean-up? Or only if you discarded multiple cards such that the Village Green (or Tunnel) is not on top?

Only when the card you're taking isn't on top.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2020, 01:42:16 pm »
0

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.


I don't think the post you linked to works as an answer... under the original lose-track rule, it wouldn't matter that both Village Greens trigger; you wouldn't be able to move the one that was not on top... actually you would still be able to play it, but it would stay in your discard pile, so it would get played without moving. But the errata allows it to move to in-play.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

chipperMDW

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 367
  • Respect: +813
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2020, 01:44:24 pm »
+3

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

That ruling is about Minion, which does discard the cards simultaneously. But unless I've missed a recent ruling (I admittedly haven't been paying that much attention to the latest changes) Militia and other "discard down to" were ruled to be one-at-a-time (but you don't have to reveal them all somehow).

Here's a recent-sh (2017) place it was discussed. Donald said:

Quote from: Donald X.
Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

EDIT: The impact being that you were allowed to, after being hit by Militia with a five-card hand, discard a Tunnel, react with it, react with a Watchtower to topdeck the Gold, then discard that Watchtower.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 01:51:07 pm by chipperMDW »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2020, 01:50:02 pm »
+3

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

That ruling is about Minion, which does discard the cards simultaneously. But unless I've missed a recent ruling (I admittedly haven't been paying that much attention to the latest changes) Militia and other "discard down to" were ruled to be one-at-a-time (but you don't have to reveal them all somehow).

Here's a recent-sh (2017) place it was discussed. Donald said:

Quote from: Donald X.
Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."


Ooh, this means that with Militia and Village Green, you can discard a Village Green, play it, draw a card, discard another Village Green, play it, draw a card, repeat up to 10 times; and still be at a 5 card hand; having to discard 2 more.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

chipperMDW

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 367
  • Respect: +813
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2020, 01:53:30 pm »
+1

Ooh, this means that with Militia and Village Green, you can discard a Village Green, play it, draw a card, discard another Village Green, play it, draw a card, repeat up to 10 times; and still be at a 5 card hand; having to discard 2 more.

Or, I think, put the +1 Card token on Village Green and get hit by Militia to play all the Village Greens that get into your hand in next-turn mode for free.
Logged

Ingix

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +424
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2020, 01:54:30 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2020, 01:55:31 pm »
0

I don't think the post you linked to works as an answer... under the original lose-track rule, it wouldn't matter that both Village Greens trigger; you wouldn't be able to move the one that was not on top... actually you would still be able to play it, but it would stay in your discard pile, so it would get played without moving. But the errata allows it to move to in-play.

You are right, it would not have been possible before the recent lose-track rule change. And now the lose-track doesn't prevent you from doing it. But that was actually not Crj's question. The question was if you could play both Village Greens after discarding to Militia, or if you needed to react with the first Village Green right after discarding it.

That's what I was replying to, wrongly as it turns out. ChipperMDW is of course right, Militia is one card at a time, so you would only be able to draw up to 4 cards right then. (As you said, you should choose "next" anyway, and then you would draw up to 5 on your turn.)

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #110 on: March 09, 2020, 02:00:42 pm »
+3

Wait, how does it work? I'm being attacked with Militia. I have 5 cards. I discard a Copper, I have 4 cards. I discard a Village Green, I have 3 cards. Is Militia done now? Can I react with Village Green now, and draw back up to 4? Or would that mean I have to discard down to 3 again, because Militia wasn't done yet?

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #111 on: March 09, 2020, 02:02:22 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

Maybe the latest: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17897.msg735984#msg735984
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:10:03 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2020, 02:03:52 pm »
+1

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminates a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:25:56 pm by LastFootnote »
Logged

grrgrrgrr

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
  • Respect: +415
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #113 on: March 09, 2020, 02:10:21 pm »
0

Let's wrap it up with a conjecture based list of synergies and antisynergies.

Way of the Chameleon
S: Any virtual Money (esp. Poor House)
S: Lab variants (and Horse givers)
S: Cantrips, when there is too much draw already
S: Any source of + Cards actually, to avoid reshuffles
S: Opposing Enchantresses
A: Steward (as in: more stiff competition)
A: Drawers that don't use "+ Cards"

Way of the Rat
S: Cards that scream "get the most of this ASAP", especially Grand Market
S: Cards with a "while in play" effect, especially Highway
S: Villages, to grant the terminal space
S: Throne Room variants
S: Donate
A: Most cards really prefer to be played 99% of the time.
A: Treasureless decks

Village Green
S: Tactician
S: Sifters, especially Embassy and Dungeon
S: Cards like Loan and Rebuild that search for non-Action cards
S: Opposing discard attacks
S: Gainers, to increase the density of this card 
A: Lack of above makes its extra effect mostly irrelevant (though not entirely)
A: Strategies that don't care about Villages (like, god forbid, Smithy BM)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:11:30 pm by grrgrrgrr »
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2020, 02:16:07 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminate a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.

I also thought it was better if Militia discards all at once, back when he ruled the other way many years ago. But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible. I just don't see how it's good for the game with rules changes unless it's absolutely necessary to fix a problem.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2020, 02:23:06 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminate a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.

I also thought it was better if Militia discards all at once, back when he ruled the other way many years ago. But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible. I just don't see how it's good for the game with rules changes unless it's absolutely necessary to fix a problem.

Other than the question of whether or not opponents are allowed to see both of the discarded cards; has it every mattered before Village Green whether it was one at a time or not?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2020, 02:24:35 pm »
+1

Other than the question of whether or not opponents are allowed to see both of the discarded cards; has it every mattered before Village Green whether it was one at a time or not?

Yes, ChipperMDW explained it in his edit above.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2020, 03:28:04 pm »
+4

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2020, 04:19:20 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2020, 04:40:17 pm »
+4

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2020, 06:09:35 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2020, 07:24:33 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.


I could see someone reading that rule and just assuming that it applies to Militia, simply because both the rule and Militia deal with discarding multiple cards. A casual, non-precise reading, could cause some people to think of the rules as instructions on how to discard multiple cards; not realizing that there is a potential different between discarding multiple cards “at once” vs “one at a time”.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

segura

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Respect: +1423
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2020, 07:25:41 pm »
+1

But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible.


Game design isn't like the Ten Commandments coming down from heaven, things are always in flux. The fact that DXV changes and updates the rules is great and should be appreciated as not every designer does this.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2020, 07:48:42 pm »
0

In my view the problem is that people could play a game with Chameleon and Storyteller where it was a great combo, then play another game with another physical set or play online, and it's completely different. If you're not attentive to that, it has consequences for you, and why would you ever be attentive to that? It could be that the players in the game have different prior experiences; some expect it to work one way, some another way.

Sounds like Chameleon may be a definite pick for your online banlist :P

It seems like more generally you take issue with the existence of the 2E, as the problem you're describing already theoretically happens with various card combos between editions. Different players will have different expectations for how Possession, Masquerade, Trade Route- among others- combo with various cards based on the version they're used to.

I simply share the opinion that Donald used to have. None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received, or if they do, it's extremely marginal. (Masq is the obvious exception, although still pretty marginal, but it was errataed to avoid that very combo.) That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2020, 07:53:01 pm »
+2

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 17  All
 

Page created in 0.058 seconds with 21 queries.