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Author Topic: Menagerie Bonus Previews  (Read 66157 times)

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Donald X.

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Menagerie Bonus Previews
« on: March 07, 2020, 03:03:09 am »
+15

1. Way of the Chameleon: scroll down!
2. Way of the Rat: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg825937#msg825937
3. Village Green: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826022#msg826022
4. Alliance: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826128#msg826128
5. Gamble: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826331#msg826331
6. Camel Train: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826449#msg826449
7. Way of the Horse: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826562#msg826562
8. Way of the Pig / Way of the Sheep: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826668#msg826668
9. Stampede: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826734#msg826734
10. Cardinal: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826816#msg826816
11. Desperation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20150.msg826945#msg826945

* * *

Bonus Preview 1: Way of the Chameleon

People asked for various things, but the big one was Ways, everyone wants to see more. Someone wanted the "vice-versa" card and someone wanted the most rule-bending things, so here's all three of those, and the most exotic thing in the set.



Durations are tricky. It only applies to this turn; if you play Merchant Ship using Way of the Chameleon, you get +2 Cards this turn and +$2 next turn. Also some things get you cards but aren't "+Cards"; Way of the Chameleon doesn't apply to them. There will be a rulebook eventually!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 03:00:56 am by Donald X. »
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Sparafucile

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2020, 03:06:48 am »
0

 Very interesting card!   If I chameleon a second time in a turn - does it undo the first one - putting all the cards back to normal? 
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kieranmillar

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2020, 03:08:32 am »
+2

Very interesting card!   If I chameleon a second time in a turn - does it undo the first one - putting all the cards back to normal?
You choose to apply Ways on a card by card basis, so its either active or not for an individual card play, you can't apply it twice.
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Sparafucile

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2020, 03:12:21 am »
0

It says each time ... this turn.

Also. - ways are instead of the card text.... so....
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kieranmillar

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2020, 03:19:29 am »
+5

The key word is "that", meaning it only applies to the one card you applied the Way to. The "this turn" clause is there I imagine to prevent tracking issues with durations.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2020, 03:46:47 am »
+4

The key word is "that", meaning it only applies to the one card you applied the Way to. The "this turn" clause is there I imagine to prevent tracking issues with durations.
Correct.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2020, 03:48:31 am »
0

Bonus Preview 1:

People asked for various things, but the big one was Ways, everyone wants to see more. Someone wanted the "vice-versa" card and someone wanted the most rule-bending things, so here's all three of those, and the most exotic thing in the set.



Durations are tricky. It only applies to this turn; if you play Merchant Ship using Way of the Chameleon, you get +2 Cards this turn and +$2 next turn. Also some things get you cards but aren't "+Cards"; Way of the Chameleon doesn't apply to them. There will be a rulebook eventually!

So, a Smithy could be turned into a terminal Gold and a Goon turns into +2 Cards +1 Buy

How does it interact with Capitalism?  Does Capitalism only look at the "original" text, so that you still wouldn't be able to play a Smithy during Buy phase (even though you could use it for +$3 during your Action phase), but you could play, say, a Livery for +3 Cards instead of +$3?
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Violet CLM

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2020, 03:52:42 am »
+9

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2020, 03:55:21 am »
+2

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"  No, wait, it specifically says "+Cards" and "+coins" on the Way, so I guess it wouldn't matter how many Treasure cards you had.  It would basically become "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -$1 per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below $0)" making that clause meaningless ... except that you'd still have to reveal your hand, but who cares?  Dang, that does make Poor House awesome!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 04:08:49 am by mxdata »
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J Reggie

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2020, 03:59:36 am »
0

I can't wait to use this on cards like Peddler! I always wondered if there would be a way to directly switch +bonuses, and here it is.

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"

Would it be -1 card? I'd think the only thing that changes would be the plusses, not the minuses.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2020, 04:02:05 am »
0

I can't wait to use this on cards like Peddler! I always wondered if there would be a way to directly switch +bonuses, and here it is.

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"

Would it be -1 card? I'd think the only thing that changes would be the plusses, not the minuses.

Yeah, I corrected that.  You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!  I'd predict that in a game with Poor House and Chameleon, the Poor House would get bought up very quickly
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2020, 04:06:40 am »
+4

How does it interact with Capitalism?  Does Capitalism only look at the "original" text, so that you still wouldn't be able to play a Smithy during Buy phase (even though you could use it for +$3 during your Action phase), but you could play, say, a Livery for +3 Cards instead of +$3?
Livery has +$3 so Capitalism makes it a Treasure. In my buy phase I play it, which I can do because it's a Treasure. It's still an Action so I can use Way of the Chameleon on it, which I do. This causes me to get +3 Cards and the other thing Livery does.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2020, 04:10:32 am »
0

What's the reason for making it so it can't be used for the Duration effect?
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2020, 04:15:06 am »
+4

What's the reason for making it so it can't be used for the Duration effect?
Tracking! Nothing tracks that you did that, so you wouldn't remember (irl).
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2020, 04:22:31 am »
0

What's the reason for making it so it can't be used for the Duration effect?
Tracking! Nothing tracks that you did that, so you wouldn't remember (irl).
Ah, of course!  It would be too easy to forget what choice you'd made, and you can't apply the Way to only part of the card.  Makes perfect sense now
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2020, 04:31:37 am »
+1

I can't wait to play that Chameleon + Poor House combo!
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2020, 04:44:37 am »
0

Minion would be interesting with Chameleon.  You'd have the option of using it as a Lab or of discarding your hand for $4 if you applied Chameleon to it.  So, Minion now has a total of four ways to play it, and Count now has twelve total ways to play it (since the +$3 option becomes +3 cards if you use Chameleon, so 3*4)
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2020, 04:50:15 am »
+1

Minion would be interesting with Chameleon.  You'd have the option of using it as a Lab or of discarding your hand for $4 if you applied Chameleon to it.  So, Minion now has a total of four ways to play it, and Count now has twelve total ways to play it (since the +$3 option becomes +3 cards if you use Chameleon, so 3*4)

And it becomes a lot easier to get the +2 Actions on Diplomat if you use Chameleon.  Unless you played it from a hand of 7 or more cards, it would effectively be +$2 +2 Actions
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2020, 04:55:49 am »
+1

At first I thought Chameleon would have no effect on cards like Peddler or Merchant, but then I realized that Chameleon would allow it to override Enchantress, as mentioned in the first post about Ways "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."  So, normally there'd be no effect, since there's no practical difference between +1 Card +1 Action +$1 and +$1 +1 Action +1 Card, but if it's your first card with an Enchantress attack in play, it overrides Enchantress!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2020, 05:38:40 am »
+2

Squire strictly stronger than village confirmed. City Quarter will also be fun.

I imagine the most consequential change will just be to up the powerlevel of various cards. +1$ is definitely weaker than +1 card in general, so we will have lots of cards that are blatantly overpowered for their price point. Think of Diplomat. Or Festival.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2020, 05:42:09 am »
0

Squire strictly stronger than village confirmed. City Quarter will also be fun.

I imagine the most consequential change will just be to up the powerlevel of various cards. +1$ is definitely weaker than +1 card in general, so we will have lots of cards that are blatantly overpowered for their price point. Think of Diplomat. Or Festival.

Some trash-for-benefit cards have an interesting effect.  Forager becomes a non-terminal draw, with a variable number of cards drawn for example.  Death Cart lets you draw *five cards*!  And Poor House is basically Hunting Grounds without the on-trash effect
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2020, 05:46:40 am »
+3

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?
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pubby

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2020, 05:58:41 am »
+3

Scholar is funny with this. +$7.
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J Reggie

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2020, 08:59:05 am »
0

I can't wait to use this on cards like Peddler! I always wondered if there would be a way to directly switch +bonuses, and here it is.

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"

Would it be -1 card? I'd think the only thing that changes would be the plusses, not the minuses.

Yeah, I corrected that.  You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!  I'd predict that in a game with Poor House and Chameleon, the Poor House would get bought up very quickly

Yeah, I guess PPE doesn't apply to edits.

crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2020, 09:02:09 am »
+1

Scholar is funny with this. +$7.
Woah! Epic if throned with some spare +Buy.
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2020, 09:07:25 am »
+6

Hmm. Suddenly it makes a difference whether you're playing with first-edition or second-edition Cellar. /-8

(Edit: and which language your set is.)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 09:08:44 am by crj »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2020, 09:10:05 am »
+1

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.
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J Reggie

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2020, 09:19:35 am »
+3

Ooo, my favorite card Miser likes this.

michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2020, 11:28:37 am »
+2

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"  No, wait, it specifically says "+Cards" and "+coins" on the Way, so I guess it wouldn't matter how many Treasure cards you had.  It would basically become "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -$1 per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below $0)" making that clause meaningless ... except that you'd still have to reveal your hand, but who cares?  Dang, that does make Poor House awesome!
(emphasis mine)

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)

I can't wait to play that Chameleon + Poor House combo!

And Poor House is basically Hunting Grounds without the on-trash effect



Poor House's "formula" is not +(max(, - number of Treasure cards in your hand)); it is +, then - per Treasure card in your hand, with your total count bottoming out at . For example, if you play a Market, then a Laboratory, then a Poor House and reveal 5 Coppers, you now have a grand total of and 1 Buy; the Poor House is actively harmful* in that case.

So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 11:55:48 am by michaeljb »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2020, 11:33:30 am »
0

Very interesting card!   If I chameleon a second time in a turn - does it undo the first one - putting all the cards back to normal?

If you could use a Way several times when you play a card, it wouldn't make a difference. The Way tells you what to do instead of following the card's instructions. If you apply the Way again, you are already not following the card's instructions, so it wouldn't do anything. This is in line with Enchantress; playing severeal Enchantresses doesn't give your opponents "+1 Card, +1 Action" more than once.

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2020, 11:43:32 am »
+5

So Poor House is +4 Cards and costs $1? I'll take it.

But only if you have no Treasure cards in your hand.  It's now "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -1 Card per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below 0 cards)"  No, wait, it specifically says "+Cards" and "+coins" on the Way, so I guess it wouldn't matter how many Treasure cards you had.  It would basically become "+4 Cards.  Reveal your hand, -$1 per Treasure card in your hand (you can't go below $0)" making that clause meaningless ... except that you'd still have to reveal your hand, but who cares?  Dang, that does make Poor House awesome!

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!

I can't wait to play that Chameleon + Poor House combo!

And Poor House is basically Hunting Grounds without the on-trash effect



Poor House's "formula" is not +(max(, - number of Treasure cards in your hand)); it is +, then - per Treasure card in your hand, with your total count bottoming out at . For example, if you play a Market, then a Laboratory, then a Poor House and reveal 5 Coppers, you now have a grand total of and 1 Buy; the Poor House is actively harmful* in that case.

So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler

I don’t think anyone was misunderstanding this. Yes Poor House would still remove other money you had earned from Peddler, etc... but often you won’t have any yet. Poor House by itself is now +4 cards, the possible drawback is avoided by not using it in a Peddler-type deck.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2020, 11:43:38 am »
+1

People asked for various things, but the big one was Ways, everyone wants to see more. Someone wanted the "vice-versa" card and someone wanted the most rule-bending things, so here's all three of those, and the most exotic thing in the set.

Do you mean "most exotic" in the zoological sense?

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2020, 11:47:58 am »
+2

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

Oh man, that's awful. Why differentiate between draw cards and +cards? Now some cards were functionally changed with 2nd editions, retroactively.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:06:22 pm by Jeebus »
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michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2020, 11:48:13 am »
+2

I don’t think anyone was misunderstanding this. Yes Poor House would still remove other money you had earned from Peddler, etc... but often you won’t have any yet. Poor House by itself is now +4 cards, the possible drawback is avoided by not using it in a Peddler-type deck.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I dunno, "not using it in a Peddler-type deck" sounds like a condition to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)
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michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2020, 12:04:26 pm »
+1

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

Oh man, that's awful. Why differenciate between draw cards and +cards? Now some cards were functionally changed with 2nd editions, retroactively.

If I've learned anything from reading of Donald's posts over the years, I would guess his answer is something like this: at the time, "drawing cards" seemed like better wording than "+Cards" and Way of the Chameleon's mechanism was unforeseen. While making Menagerie, the mechanism seemed neat enough to be worth the drawback of retroactively changing some first edition cards. While the mechanism could be worded to treat "drawing cards" and "+Cards" as the same, that was probably too wordy.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:06:30 pm by michaeljb »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2020, 12:09:52 pm »
0

Hmm. Suddenly it makes a difference whether you're playing with first-edition or second-edition Cellar. /-8

(Edit: and which language your set is.)

I think that matters anyway. If you take the german version literally, you have all sorts of nonsensical effects and bugs. For example, watchtower triggerd on buy or gain last time I checked, which doesn't make any sense (though admittedly it also doesn't change anything).
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2020, 12:10:14 pm »
+1

If I've learned anything from reading of Donald's posts over the years, I would guess his answer is something like this: at the time, "drawing cards" seemed like better wording than "+Cards" and Way of the Chameleon's mechanism was unforeseen. While making Menagerie, the mechanism seemed neat enough to be worth the drawback of retroactively changing some first edition cards. While the mechanism could be worded to treat "drawing cards" and "+Cards" as the same, that was probably too wordy.

I definitely don't think the card text on Way of the Chameleon should be changed. But there is no way to know from that text alone whether it applies to "draw cards"; you have to check the rulebook. And it would be perfectly reasonable to say that "give you +Cards" also refers to cards that say "draw cards".

Actually, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same, as with the -1 Card token for instance. So the intuitive interpretation is that cards that "give you +Cards" include any card that lets you draw cards.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:19:02 pm by Jeebus »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2020, 12:21:02 pm »
+2

So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?
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Violet CLM

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2020, 12:26:00 pm »
0

What I'm curious about is how far the effects reach. If I apply Chameleon to Crown in my Buy phase, leading me to play a treasure card twice, does Chameleon automatically extend to any +$ that treasure card gives me? It was following Crown's instructions that directly caused me to play the treasure card.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:27:20 pm by Violet CLM »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2020, 12:28:38 pm »
+4

So a Chameleoned Poor House draws 4 cards and then can still remove you've accumulated earlier this turn. Play a Market for its normal effects (Chameleoned or not), then play a Chameleoned Poor House to draw 4 cards, then if you reveal any Treasures at all, you lose the provided by the Market.

* blah blah edge case blah blah Peddler

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?

Indeed it can. I don't know if the 2E rulebook changed the wording of the FAQ and the wiki seems to be having trouble right now, so here's what the 1E rulebook says:

Quote from: Dark Ages 1E Rulebook
Poor House: First you get +. Then you reveal your hand, and lose per Treasure card in it. You can lose more than this way, but the amount of coins you have available to spend can never go below . Cards with two types, one of which is Treasure (such as Harem from Intrigue) are Treasure cards.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2020, 12:32:34 pm »
+1

What I'm curious about is how far the effects reach. If I apply Chameleon to Crown in my Buy phase, leading me to play a treasure card twice, does Chameleon automatically extend to any +$ that treasure card gives me?

No.

It was following Crown's instructions that directly caused me to play the treasure card.

True, but when you're playing a Treasure that Crown let you play twice, you're onto a different card's instructions. In this scenario, Chameleon's "that" refers only to Crown's instructions.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:33:51 pm by michaeljb »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2020, 12:34:17 pm »
+1

Scholar is funny with this. +$7.

Dang, almost a guaranteed Province, as long as you play at least one card with a +$1 bonus before it!  But also, I love how this card and Minion cause you to have no hand after you play them with Chameleon

Storehouse acts almost like a throned Cellar when you use this Way, except with +1 Buy and no +Actions
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2020, 12:38:41 pm »
+1

Storehouse acts almost like a throned Cellar when you use this Way, except with +1 Buy and no +Actions

Oof, Storeroom is another instance of the Storyteller quirk--1E uses "+Cards" and 2E uses "draw" so only the 1E version works with Chameleon 2E version works the way you describe.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:39:48 pm by michaeljb »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2020, 12:42:42 pm »
+1

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?

Indeed it can. I don't know if the 2E rulebook changed the wording of the FAQ and the wiki seems to be having trouble right now, so here's what the 1E rulebook says:

Quote from: Dark Ages 1E Rulebook
Poor House: First you get +. Then you reveal your hand, and lose per Treasure card in it. You can lose more than this way, but the amount of coins you have available to spend can never go below . Cards with two types, one of which is Treasure (such as Harem from Intrigue) are Treasure cards.

Hunh, interesting.  I guess it never came up for me because there was never any point to playing it with more than 3 Treasure cards in hand.  So, clearly then, you'd want to make sure you played this before any cards that give +coins.  Although, a draw of 4 cards would probably still be worth it, even if ended up losing a couple coins, similar to playing Storyteller
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2020, 12:44:54 pm »
+5

People asked for various things, but the big one was Ways, everyone wants to see more. Someone wanted the "vice-versa" card and someone wanted the most rule-bending things, so here's all three of those, and the most exotic thing in the set.

Do you mean "most exotic" in the zoological sense?

If not, I'd like to request the most zoologically exotic thing in the set for a bonus preview.  ;D
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2020, 12:55:28 pm »
+2

Scholar is funny with this. +$7.
Woah! Epic if throned with some spare +Buy.
Or King's Court/Mastermind!  +$21!  Automatically at least two provinces or a province and a colony if you have an extra buy (in the case of Mastermind, maybe from another Duration card with +Buy or a Turtled card with +Buy or the Fair project), and you'd only need one more coin for two Colonies.  A Duration card like Wharf would even allow you to continue playing after the +$21 if you resolve Mastermind first, though granted with a very small hand

EDIT: Wait, you can choose to use the Way or not on each play.  So, another option is to use Chameleon on the first two plays for $14, then on the third play you use the normal function, giving you +7 cards.  Now you have a 7-card hand with $14 already accumulated
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 01:08:04 pm by mxdata »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2020, 01:14:06 pm »
+2

Plus you don't have to use the Way the third time. Play a Mastermind and on our next turn, Chameleon a Scholar for just the first two plays: start your turn with and a 7 card hand and +$14.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2020, 01:46:38 pm »
+1

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

The last sentence seems strange to me. While I suppose every group will play it differently, I would expect that anyone who knows about the errata/change would generally choose to play with that errata. I only have first edition, but if I play with Throne Room, I’m making sure everyone knows that it actually says “may” even though it isn’t printed on the card. It seems silly to play with different rules based on whether or not your printed copy has old text.

Same goes for any game. I have first edition Carcassone, but when scoring I’m going to use the current farm scoring rules.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2020, 01:48:44 pm »
+1

Do you mean "most exotic" in the zoological sense?
I meant exotic in terms of the effect; the animals though, as I have mentioned somewhere, are mostly ones medieval people interacted with.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2020, 01:50:26 pm »
+2

I don’t think anyone was misunderstanding this. Yes Poor House would still remove other money you had earned from Peddler, etc... but often you won’t have any yet. Poor House by itself is now +4 cards, the possible drawback is avoided by not using it in a Peddler-type deck.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I dunno, "not using it in a Peddler-type deck" sounds like a condition to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)

I read “unconditional” as “always draws 4.” Compared to Scout, which can draw 4 but probably won’t. There’s a potential drawback, but not a condition. Either way it still sounds like a strong combo, and I think the people that were discussing it were aware of the drawback.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2020, 01:53:24 pm »
+3

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

Oh man, that's awful. Why differenciate between draw cards and +cards? Now some cards were functionally changed with 2nd editions, retroactively.

If I've learned anything from reading of Donald's posts over the years, I would guess his answer is something like this: at the time, "drawing cards" seemed like better wording than "+Cards" and Way of the Chameleon's mechanism was unforeseen. While making Menagerie, the mechanism seemed neat enough to be worth the drawback of retroactively changing some first edition cards. While the mechanism could be worded to treat "drawing cards" and "+Cards" as the same, that was probably too wordy.
Not working with non-draw draw seems fine in general; it's clear, Farming Village isn't +1 Card. Having Cellar / Storeroom / Storyteller depend on which version you have is a bummer; it didn't kill Way of the Chameleon though.

For the second editions, I felt like I had a better wording on Cellar etc., and didn't know this thing was coming. The idea of switching around +'s predates the game being published, but surely that was never happening.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2020, 01:58:38 pm »
+2

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

The last sentence seems strange to me. While I suppose every group will play it differently, I would expect that anyone who knows about the errata/change would generally choose to play with that errata. I only have first edition, but if I play with Throne Room, I’m making sure everyone knows that it actually says “may” even though it isn’t printed on the card. It seems silly to play with different rules based on whether or not your printed copy has old text.

Same goes for any game. I have first edition Carcassone, but when scoring I’m going to use the current farm scoring rules.
It's up to the players; for sure some people are going to play by the card in front of them, and not think about this, and that will be fine.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2020, 01:59:20 pm »
0

I don’t think anyone was misunderstanding this. Yes Poor House would still remove other money you had earned from Peddler, etc... but often you won’t have any yet. Poor House by itself is now +4 cards, the possible drawback is avoided by not using it in a Peddler-type deck.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I dunno, "not using it in a Peddler-type deck" sounds like a condition to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right, as written it doesn't change the minuses, so it's a card costing $1 that draws an unconditional 4 cards!
(emphasis mine)

I read “unconditional” as “always draws 4.” Compared to Scout, which can draw 4 but probably won’t. There’s a potential drawback, but not a condition. Either way it still sounds like a strong combo, and I think the people that were discussing it were aware of the drawback.

Yeah, that was what I meant by unconditional.  You draw 4 cards no matter what.  Depending on what you have in your hand,  and what you've already played, there might be a -coin cost, but nothing's blocking you from drawing four cards
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2020, 02:04:26 pm »
+1

Not working with non-draw draw seems fine in general; it's clear, Farming Village isn't +1 Card. Having Cellar / Storeroom / Storyteller depend on which version you have is a bummer; it didn't kill Way of the Chameleon though.
I left out Oracle. The plan is to change Oracle back though, meaning only some years worth of copies of Hinterlands will have the non-draw ones. It changed because of the centered +2 Cards confusing people; but the text could still say +2 Cards, why doesn't it.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2020, 02:17:08 pm »
+2

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 02:18:24 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2020, 02:37:48 pm »
+2

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
Library interacts with the -1 Card token.

If I'd had a better wording I would have used it. It wasn't a case of not caring.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2020, 02:42:30 pm »
+6

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
Library interacts with the -1 Card token.

Come to think of it, if Chameleon did work with the word “draw”, then cards like Library would give you infinite money... you keep getting +$1 until you have 7 cards in hand, and you never reach 7 cards in hand.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2020, 03:12:59 pm »
+2

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
Library interacts with the -1 Card token.

Come to think of it, if Chameleon did work with the word “draw”, then cards like Library would give you infinite money... you keep getting +$1 until you have 7 cards in hand, and you never reach 7 cards in hand.

A simple solution there would just be to say that it only works if a specific number is given.  "Draw 2 cards" is equivalent to +2 Cards, but "draw until you have seven cards" is not equivalent to any +X Cards because X is conditional (and digging cards like Farming Village *definitely* don't count).  And, in fact, with Library is actually undefined until it's finished resolving - since you have the option of discarding Actions, there's no way of knowing how many cards you would've actually drawn, only what your final handsize would be
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 03:14:09 pm by mxdata »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2020, 03:15:37 pm »
0

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
Library interacts with the -1 Card token.

If I'd had a better wording I would have used it. It wasn't a case of not caring.

Good point about Library. If Chameleon includes all card drawers, it includes Library.
So I guess the wording struggles were actually about making it more clear that it was only about "+Cards".

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2020, 03:20:44 pm »
0

A simple solution there would just be to say that it only works if a specific number is given.  "Draw 2 cards" is equivalent to +2 Cards, but "draw until you have seven cards" is not equivalent to any +X Cards because X is conditional (and digging cards like Farming Village *definitely* don't count).  And, in fact, with Library is actually undefined until it's finished resolving - since you have the option of discarding Actions, there's no way of knowing how many cards you would've actually drawn, only what your final handsize would be

I think you make good point. Players would definitely not just assume that Library = infinite $. They would check the rulebook and find that it doesn't (along with Watchtower, Jack, etc).

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2020, 03:27:17 pm »
+3

My objection was not that you should have killed Way of the Chameleon, nor changed the card text. I just think that "give you +Cards" should have included all cards that let you draw cards. After all, the rules make it clear that "draw cards" and "+Cards" are the same.

EDIT: Of course not including Farming Village. The exact same set of cards that the -1 Card token interacts with.
Library interacts with the -1 Card token.

Come to think of it, if Chameleon did work with the word “draw”, then cards like Library would give you infinite money... you keep getting +$1 until you have 7 cards in hand, and you never reach 7 cards in hand.

A simple solution there would just be to say that it only works if a specific number is given.  "Draw 2 cards" is equivalent to +2 Cards, but "draw until you have seven cards" is not equivalent to any +X Cards because X is conditional (and digging cards like Farming Village *definitely* don't count).  And, in fact, with Library is actually undefined until it's finished resolving - since you have the option of discarding Actions, there's no way of knowing how many cards you would've actually drawn, only what your final handsize would be
Trying to make that distinction does not look better / clearer to me. Library etc. draw one card at a time.

It's very clear if a card says "+Cards" or doesn't. It does or it doesn't! It's not clear what the current wording of a card is, compared to the printing you bought, but you don't need to account for that, and I bet most people won't think to.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2020, 05:03:15 pm »
0

If you're still taking requests about the next preview, I'd like to see what the "an unused action" from the teaser refers to.  I've been pondering it and I can't come up with a reasonable card or landscape that that phrase would make sense in.  It can't refer to an action card, because "unused" would be weirdly redundant there.  An "unused" card would be one that's still in your hand, or that you discarded/trashed/Exiled, so I'm guessing it means an Action that you haven't used.  But the "an" is what's confusing me, why would it be an unused Action and not something like "any unused Actions" or "each unused Action" in a clause like "if you have any unused Actions ..." or "per unused Action".  So I'm extremely curious to find out what that is!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2020, 05:14:27 pm »
+1

If you're still taking requests about the next preview, I'd like to see what the "an unused action" from the teaser refers to.  I've been pondering it and I can't come up with a reasonable card or landscape that that phrase would make sense in.  It can't refer to an action card, because "unused" would be weirdly redundant there.  An "unused" card would be one that's still in your hand, or that you discarded/trashed/Exiled, so I'm guessing it means an Action that you haven't used.  But the "an" is what's confusing me, why would it be an unused Action and not something like "any unused Actions" or "each unused Action" in a clause like "if you have any unused Actions ..." or "per unused Action".  So I'm extremely curious to find out what that is!
I've made a list of requests, and they've piled up, even though a bunch are just "more Ways." So I probably won't get to further requests, though I can add them to the list.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2020, 07:01:28 pm »
0

Chameleon + Governor would be funny.  One of the options becomes +$3 for yourself and +$1 for all other players - except that, of course, they wouldn't be able to use that coin on your turn!
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Gubump

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2020, 07:13:59 pm »
+3

Chameleon + Governor would be funny.  One of the options becomes +$3 for yourself and +$1 for all other players - except that, of course, they wouldn't be able to use that coin on your turn!

Except that it's phrased "each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get + instead, and vice-versa." Governor would still give everybody else +1 Card.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2020, 07:16:40 pm »
0

Chameleon + Governor would be funny.  One of the options becomes +$3 for yourself and +$1 for all other players - except that, of course, they wouldn't be able to use that coin on your turn!

Except that it's phrased "each time that would give you +Cards this turn, you get + instead, and vice-versa." Governor would still give everybody else +1 Card.

Oh, right!  I missed that part, good point
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2020, 08:15:03 pm »
+1

I was going to bring storyteller up as a joke, but actually it now allows you to play treasures during your turn for +$, which is legitimately useful. Unless the effect doesn't trigger because it says "draw cards" instead of "+X Cards" ...?

Correct, 2nd Edition Storyteller doesn't has "draw" instead of "+1 Card", so it's unaffected by Way of the Chameleon (other than the vanilla +1 Card). If you're playing IRL with 1st Edition Storyteller, then the +Cards will be converted to +$.

The last sentence seems strange to me. While I suppose every group will play it differently, I would expect that anyone who knows about the errata/change would generally choose to play with that errata. I only have first edition, but if I play with Throne Room, I’m making sure everyone knows that it actually says “may” even though it isn’t printed on the card. It seems silly to play with different rules based on whether or not your printed copy has old text.

Same goes for any game. I have first edition Carcassone, but when scoring I’m going to use the current farm scoring rules.

I'd like to play with the errata and 2E versions, but I'm never going to be keeping a mental list of cards which changed +cards to draw cards, because it has no functional change except with Way of the Chameleon. Throne Room I remember because even though the functional change doesn't usually matter, it's always there. I also don't feel like looking up a list of those cards every time I play.

The key difference here is that knowing the errata isn't what causes you to choose it. It's remembering the errata.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 08:16:11 pm by hhelibebcnofnena »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2020, 08:38:30 pm »
+3

I'd like to play with the errata and 2E versions, but I'm never going to be keeping a mental list of cards which changed +cards to draw cards, because it has no functional change except with Way of the Chameleon. Throne Room I remember because even though the functional change doesn't usually matter, it's always there. I also don't feel like looking up a list of those cards every time I play.

The key difference here is that knowing the errata isn't what causes you to choose it. It's remembering the errata.

In my view the problem is that people could play a game with Chameleon and Storyteller where it was a great combo, then play another game with another physical set or play online, and it's completely different. If you're not attentive to that, it has consequences for you, and why would you ever be attentive to that? It could be that the players in the game have different prior experiences; some expect it to work one way, some another way.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2020, 08:48:07 pm »
0

I read “unconditional” as “always draws 4.” Compared to Scout, which can draw 4 but probably won’t. There’s a potential drawback, but not a condition. Either way it still sounds like a strong combo, and I think the people that were discussing it were aware of the drawback.

I agree that it looks strong, and I was wrong in my interpretation of "unconditional". But I still think the person I quoted wasn't aware of the drawback at the time, after all they later posted this:

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?
Hopefully this can conclude this silly side-conversation about whether my Princess Bride meme post was justified :p
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2020, 08:55:14 pm »
+2

I read “unconditional” as “always draws 4.” Compared to Scout, which can draw 4 but probably won’t. There’s a potential drawback, but not a condition. Either way it still sounds like a strong combo, and I think the people that were discussing it were aware of the drawback.

I agree that it looks strong, and I was wrong in my interpretation of "unconditional". But I still think the person I quoted wasn't aware of the drawback at the time, after all they later posted this:

Wait, Poor House can remove coins that came from other cards?  I thought the -coins only applied to its own bonus?
Hopefully this can conclude this silly side-conversation about whether my Princess Bride meme post was justified :p

Fair, I didn’t notice that was one of the same people. And yeah, I remember a few people misunderstanding Poor House in that way in the past.

*Edit* lol I just now saw the hidden text thanks to the quote in this post.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 10:35:06 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2020, 11:40:03 pm »
+7

Can't wait to Chameleon a Market so I can say that I chameleoned ironically.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2020, 12:07:37 am »
0

Can't wait to Chameleon a Market so I can say that I chameleoned ironically.

There is actually a context where that would make sense.  As clarified in the original Ways post, Enchantress can be cancelled out by a Way.  So, even though a Chameleoned market is just a normal Market, it would block Enchantress' effect and let you actually use it as a Market
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2020, 03:08:46 am »
0

I'd like to play with the errata and 2E versions, but I'm never going to be keeping a mental list of cards which changed +cards to draw cards, because it has no functional change except with Way of the Chameleon. Throne Room I remember because even though the functional change doesn't usually matter, it's always there. I also don't feel like looking up a list of those cards every time I play.

The key difference here is that knowing the errata isn't what causes you to choose it. It's remembering the errata.

In my view the problem is that people could play a game with Chameleon and Storyteller where it was a great combo, then play another game with another physical set or play online, and it's completely different. If you're not attentive to that, it has consequences for you, and why would you ever be attentive to that? It could be that the players in the game have different prior experiences; some expect it to work one way, some another way.

Sounds like Chameleon may be a definite pick for your online banlist :P

It seems like more generally you take issue with the existence of the 2E, as the problem you're describing already theoretically happens with various card combos between editions. Different players will have different expectations for how Possession, Masquerade, Trade Route- among others- combo with various cards based on the version they're used to.

Ultimately, I don't think this Chameleon issue is gonna be a very big deal. Those of us who are here are likely to care more than most, and we'll consequently probably learn the list of Chameleon exceptions pretty quickly.

Either way, I'd rather have it than not, because it's a pretty dang neat landscape
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2020, 03:59:28 am »
+16

Bonus Preview 2: Way of the Rat

Here's another Way, for you people hungry for Ways. Despite Way of the Chameleon, they are mostly very simple, whether vanilla like Way of the Ox, or just, you know, simple, like Way of the Rat.



In games with Way of the Rat, everything can gain copies of itself. There you have it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 04:01:30 am by Donald X. »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2020, 06:42:03 am »
+4

Rats will be shocked to find out that the way of the rats is different from the way of the rat.

I expect this will be useful late rather than early. Foregoing an early action card to gain a copy of it will rarely be worth it. On the other hand, if you have your entire deck in hand and some spare actions, it can be very strong.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2020, 06:46:23 am »
+4

Way of Lord Rattington.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2020, 08:02:37 am »
+7

Way of The Rat looks great to me; I'm always looking for more ways to gain Grand Markets, and now I can do it via copper!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2020, 08:10:06 am »
+4

Kinda nice if you dud with Prince.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2020, 09:36:12 am »
+8

Way of Lord Rattington.

I can totally see Lord Rattington use this every turn and never actually play any of his actions for their usual on-play effect. It would be funny to see him empty the Chapel pile.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2020, 10:16:21 am »
+1

I really like how well-balanced these Ways seem, a lot of thought must have gone into them. Like, you're usually not going to use them most of the time you're playing an action, but they still add something interesting to a game.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2020, 10:39:39 am »
+4

Rats will be shocked to find out that the way of the rats is different from the way of the rat.

Yeah, it's way different.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2020, 11:23:48 am »
+5

I really like how well-balanced these Ways seem, a lot of thought must have gone into them. Like, you're usually not going to use them most of the time you're playing an action, but they still add something interesting to a game.

Turtle, Chameleon, and Rat are extra cool here. With all Ways; there’s an interesting balance problem to solve... the Way can be used with an action that cost $2, or with an action that cost $5. So it can’t give a $5 strength effect; otherwise it’s way too good when used with a $2 cost action. But those three (so far) give you a better effect when you use a better card with it. Whereas the other 2 revealed Ways give you the same effect no matter what; making them much better if used with a worse/cheaper action.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2020, 11:28:28 am »
+2

I think Way of the Rat will make sense any time you want to collect many copies of a spammable card, and playing a copy of the spammable card gives you a lesser effect than buying another. As mentioned, Grand Market is the most obvious example of this.

The other significant category is cards with below-the-line effects. Using it on Highway or Haggler could easily make sense.

As a minor special case, if you throne a throne, you could throne some stuff, then use Way of the Rat on your final invocation of the throned throne to get yourself another throne.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2020, 11:34:31 am »
0

I think Way of the Rat will make sense any time you want to collect many copies of a spammable card, and playing a copy of the spammable card gives you a lesser effect than buying another. As mentioned, Grand Market is the most obvious example of this.

The other significant category is cards with below-the-line effects. Using it on Highway or Haggler could easily make sense.

As a minor special case, if you throne a throne, you could throne some stuff, then use Way of the Rat on your final invocation of the throned throne to get yourself another throne.

Way of the Rat + a cheap card would also be a way to get Wayfarer for  cheap.  Especially if the cheap card is a cantrip, like, say, Pearl Diver
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2020, 11:38:14 am »
+3

I think Way of the Rat will make sense any time you want to collect many copies of a spammable card, and playing a copy of the spammable card gives you a lesser effect than buying another. As mentioned, Grand Market is the most obvious example of this.

The other significant category is cards with below-the-line effects. Using it on Highway or Haggler could easily make sense.

As a minor special case, if you throne a throne, you could throne some stuff, then use Way of the Rat on your final invocation of the throned throne to get yourself another throne.

Way of the Rat + a cheap card would also be a way to get Wayfarer for  cheap.  Especially if the cheap card is a cantrip, like, say, Pearl Diver

Also, Procession would have an interesting effect with Way of the Rat.  If you use Way of the Rat on the second play of your action, you get a copy of it to replace the one Procession trashes, plus a more expensive action
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2020, 12:04:44 pm »
+5

I like that Way of the Rat helps you get Actions, but needs Treasures to activate.

Additionally, great artwork on this one! Love it.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2020, 04:29:52 pm »
0

I really like how well-balanced these Ways seem, a lot of thought must have gone into them. Like, you're usually not going to use them most of the time you're playing an action, but they still add something interesting to a game.

Turtle, Chameleon, and Rat are extra cool here. With all Ways; there’s an interesting balance problem to solve... the Way can be used with an action that cost $2, or with an action that cost $5. So it can’t give a $5 strength effect; otherwise it’s way too good when used with a $2 cost action. But those three (so far) give you a better effect when you use a better card with it. Whereas the other 2 revealed Ways give you the same effect no matter what; making them much better if used with a worse/cheaper action.

I kind of feel it would be even more interesting if you could only use a Way once per turn.  You couldn't Turtle your Chapel away as an effective Exile forever, unless you wanted to forgo using it on another action card.  (It would also save on some really annoying clicking, "No, I don't want to reconsider whether I want to use the Way on this card".)
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2020, 08:12:36 pm »
+2

I'm going to use Way of the Rat on my Workshop, please and thank you.

Also, could we see a Duration or Reaction?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2020, 12:59:52 am »
+2

I think Way of the Rat will make sense any time you want to collect many copies of a spammable card, and playing a copy of the spammable card gives you a lesser effect than buying another. As mentioned, Grand Market is the most obvious example of this.

Also Cities, before they have become good.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2020, 02:59:05 am »
+14

Bonus Preview 3: Village Green

The party's over! If not now, then soon, the previews will go down from dominion.games, and you will have to wait for the release to see them again - still estimated at March 18. Yet I soldier on. Today, another Reaction card.



Village Green is the Barge village, and also the Tunnel village. If you discard it when it's not your turn, take the "next" option, that's my advice; +Actions do not do much good when it's not your turn. As with Tunnel it doesn't have to be in your hand, it can be flipped over by a Fortune Teller or whatever. It even works when discarded from the Exile mat.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2020, 03:16:41 am »
0

Bonus Preview 3: Village Green

The party's over! If not now, then soon, the previews will go down from dominion.games, and you will have to wait for the release to see them again - still estimated at March 18. Yet I soldier on. Today, another Reaction card.



Village Green is the Barge village, and also the Tunnel village. If you discard it when it's not your turn, take the "next" option, that's my advice; +Actions do not do much good when it's not your turn. As with Tunnel it doesn't have to be in your hand, it can be flipped over by a Fortune Teller or whatever. It even works when discarded from the Exile mat.

A village reaction!  This would be handy against discard attacks, especially attacks like Urchin that only make you discard one card - start your next turn with 5 cards and 3 Actions!  Or a Knight attack if there was another card in the 3-6 range.  But also things like Inn, you'd only end up with one card ending up in your discard pile (or maybe no cards if you happened to have two Village Greens in your hand!)

The fact that it works when discarded from the Exile mat makes me think there might be a combo there with Bounty Hunter or any other Exiling cards that haven't been revealed yet.  Exile a few Village Greens, then, once you've got a few of them on your Exile mat, buy one, discard them all, and trigger their reactions and start your next turn with a large hand and a bunch of Actions (hmm ... could also be handy if you happened to have Outpost in play too when you do that, since then you'd get the reaction effects right away)
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2020, 03:35:54 am »
0

Bonus Preview 3: Village Green

The party's over! If not now, then soon, the previews will go down from dominion.games, and you will have to wait for the release to see them again - still estimated at March 18. Yet I soldier on. Today, another Reaction card.



Village Green is the Barge village, and also the Tunnel village. If you discard it when it's not your turn, take the "next" option, that's my advice; +Actions do not do much good when it's not your turn. As with Tunnel it doesn't have to be in your hand, it can be flipped over by a Fortune Teller or whatever. It even works when discarded from the Exile mat.

It's interesting that all the Reactions revealed so far in Menagerie are played rather than revealed, discarded, or set-aside.  So, now I'm wondering if the two we haven't seen yet will also be played

So, of the reactions revealed so far, we have three different triggers: when you gain a card, when someone else gains a victory card, and now when you discard.  I wonder if all five reactions will have different triggers
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2020, 03:45:32 am »
+2

Why are my Courtiers frolicking around in the new Village Green
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2020, 05:15:54 am »
+10

Why are my Courtiers frolicking around in the new Village Green
More importantly - why is the Village Green orange and blue?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2020, 06:28:16 am »
+3

It's so strong. Imagine it with Oracle, Vault, Cartographer, storeroom, Scholar – there are lots of combos and they all sound worth doing. And that's on a card that would be worth buying without the reaction.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2020, 08:36:58 am »
+1

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2020, 08:37:30 am »
+2

Bonus Preview 3: Village Green

The party's over! If not now, then soon, the previews will go down from dominion.games, and you will have to wait for the release to see them again - still estimated at March 18. Yet I soldier on. Today, another Reaction card.



Village Green is the Barge village, and also the Tunnel village. If you discard it when it's not your turn, take the "next" option, that's my advice; +Actions do not do much good when it's not your turn. As with Tunnel it doesn't have to be in your hand, it can be flipped over by a Fortune Teller or whatever. It even works when discarded from the Exile mat.

It's interesting that all the Reactions revealed so far in Menagerie are played rather than revealed, discarded, or set-aside.  So, now I'm wondering if the two we haven't seen yet will also be played

So, of the reactions revealed so far, we have three different triggers: when you gain a card, when someone else gains a victory card, and now when you discard.  I wonder if all five reactions will have different triggers

I believe he said on day 5 that four out of the five Reactions play themselves.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2020, 09:48:33 am »
+4

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.

You can, thanks to the recent errata!

Quote
Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards

Of course, you wouldn't want to draw back up to 5 immediately, you would choose the "next turn" option generally, and draw back up to 5 at the start of your turn.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2020, 10:42:48 am »
+1

Now I'm trying to think of cases where you would want to draw when it's not your turn. Maybe finding a Province for Tournament, or trying to draw a different reaction.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2020, 10:51:13 am »
+3

Now I'm trying to think of cases where you would want to draw when it's not your turn. Maybe finding a Province for Tournament, or trying to draw a different reaction.

Edge case: you have two Village Greens in your hand, you might play one now, so that only one is in play next turn (while still getting +1 Card from the 2nd one) to help activate a Magic Lamp. (which cares about unique cards in play)
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2020, 11:32:49 am »
+1

It's interesting that all the Reactions revealed so far in Menagerie are played rather than revealed, discarded, or set-aside.  So, now I'm wondering if the two we haven't seen yet will also be played

So, of the reactions revealed so far, we have three different triggers: when you gain a card, when someone else gains a victory card, and now when you discard.  I wonder if all five reactions will have different triggers

I believe he said on day 5 that four out of the five Reactions play themselves.

Ah, I must've missed that.  Cool!

I'm wondering if the reaction-by-playing is because of Ways?  Like, Village Green would've had to have worked this way for the same reason as Caravan Guard, but Black Cat and Sheepdog could just have easily worked by "set this aside", as far as the reaction itself goes.  However, by playing instead of setting aside, it allows the option of using a Way instead
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2020, 12:28:09 pm »
0

With Village Green and the newest Errata dealing with the discard pile, are you allowed to look through your entire discard pile any time you discard a Village Green (or Tunnel) except during Clean-up? Or only if you discarded multiple cards such that the Village Green (or Tunnel) is not on top?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2020, 12:54:24 pm »
+3

BTW, great idea on the bonus previews! One a day is very fun, as it gives us something to all deliberate on, and maintains anticipation for tomorrow. I hope you're enjoying providing them as much as we are enjoying seeing them.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2020, 01:26:16 pm »
+1

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

With Village Green and the newest Errata dealing with the discard pile, are you allowed to look through your entire discard pile any time you discard a Village Green (or Tunnel) except during Clean-up? Or only if you discarded multiple cards such that the Village Green (or Tunnel) is not on top?

Only when the card you're taking isn't on top.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2020, 01:42:16 pm »
0

Hmm. Discarding multiple cards is simultaneous, yes? So if I attack you with Militia and you discard two Village Greens, you can play them both and draw back up to 5 cards?

That makes intuitive sense, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it codified anywhere in the rules.

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.


I don't think the post you linked to works as an answer... under the original lose-track rule, it wouldn't matter that both Village Greens trigger; you wouldn't be able to move the one that was not on top... actually you would still be able to play it, but it would stay in your discard pile, so it would get played without moving. But the errata allows it to move to in-play.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2020, 01:44:24 pm »
+3

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

That ruling is about Minion, which does discard the cards simultaneously. But unless I've missed a recent ruling (I admittedly haven't been paying that much attention to the latest changes) Militia and other "discard down to" were ruled to be one-at-a-time (but you don't have to reveal them all somehow).

Here's a recent-sh (2017) place it was discussed. Donald said:

Quote from: Donald X.
Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

EDIT: The impact being that you were allowed to, after being hit by Militia with a five-card hand, discard a Tunnel, react with it, react with a Watchtower to topdeck the Gold, then discard that Watchtower.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 01:51:07 pm by chipperMDW »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2020, 01:50:02 pm »
+3

I don't think it's in the published rules, but yes, Donald has rules that when-discard abilities trigger after you discard all the cards.

That ruling is about Minion, which does discard the cards simultaneously. But unless I've missed a recent ruling (I admittedly haven't been paying that much attention to the latest changes) Militia and other "discard down to" were ruled to be one-at-a-time (but you don't have to reveal them all somehow).

Here's a recent-sh (2017) place it was discussed. Donald said:

Quote from: Donald X.
Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."


Ooh, this means that with Militia and Village Green, you can discard a Village Green, play it, draw a card, discard another Village Green, play it, draw a card, repeat up to 10 times; and still be at a 5 card hand; having to discard 2 more.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2020, 01:53:30 pm »
+1

Ooh, this means that with Militia and Village Green, you can discard a Village Green, play it, draw a card, discard another Village Green, play it, draw a card, repeat up to 10 times; and still be at a 5 card hand; having to discard 2 more.

Or, I think, put the +1 Card token on Village Green and get hit by Militia to play all the Village Greens that get into your hand in next-turn mode for free.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2020, 01:54:30 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2020, 01:55:31 pm »
0

I don't think the post you linked to works as an answer... under the original lose-track rule, it wouldn't matter that both Village Greens trigger; you wouldn't be able to move the one that was not on top... actually you would still be able to play it, but it would stay in your discard pile, so it would get played without moving. But the errata allows it to move to in-play.

You are right, it would not have been possible before the recent lose-track rule change. And now the lose-track doesn't prevent you from doing it. But that was actually not Crj's question. The question was if you could play both Village Greens after discarding to Militia, or if you needed to react with the first Village Green right after discarding it.

That's what I was replying to, wrongly as it turns out. ChipperMDW is of course right, Militia is one card at a time, so you would only be able to draw up to 4 cards right then. (As you said, you should choose "next" anyway, and then you would draw up to 5 on your turn.)

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #110 on: March 09, 2020, 02:00:42 pm »
+3

Wait, how does it work? I'm being attacked with Militia. I have 5 cards. I discard a Copper, I have 4 cards. I discard a Village Green, I have 3 cards. Is Militia done now? Can I react with Village Green now, and draw back up to 4? Or would that mean I have to discard down to 3 again, because Militia wasn't done yet?

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #111 on: March 09, 2020, 02:02:22 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

Maybe the latest: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17897.msg735984#msg735984
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:10:03 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2020, 02:03:52 pm »
+1

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminates a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:25:56 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #113 on: March 09, 2020, 02:10:21 pm »
0

Let's wrap it up with a conjecture based list of synergies and antisynergies.

Way of the Chameleon
S: Any virtual Money (esp. Poor House)
S: Lab variants (and Horse givers)
S: Cantrips, when there is too much draw already
S: Any source of + Cards actually, to avoid reshuffles
S: Opposing Enchantresses
A: Steward (as in: more stiff competition)
A: Drawers that don't use "+ Cards"

Way of the Rat
S: Cards that scream "get the most of this ASAP", especially Grand Market
S: Cards with a "while in play" effect, especially Highway
S: Villages, to grant the terminal space
S: Throne Room variants
S: Donate
A: Most cards really prefer to be played 99% of the time.
A: Treasureless decks

Village Green
S: Tactician
S: Sifters, especially Embassy and Dungeon
S: Cards like Loan and Rebuild that search for non-Action cards
S: Opposing discard attacks
S: Gainers, to increase the density of this card 
A: Lack of above makes its extra effect mostly irrelevant (though not entirely)
A: Strategies that don't care about Villages (like, god forbid, Smithy BM)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:11:30 pm by grrgrrgrr »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2020, 02:16:07 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminate a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.

I also thought it was better if Militia discards all at once, back when he ruled the other way many years ago. But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible. I just don't see how it's good for the game with rules changes unless it's absolutely necessary to fix a problem.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2020, 02:23:06 pm »
0

In another place Donald said today, roughly "Without looking it up, Militia is one discard for multiple cards".

That makes sense to me, as there is as of yet no "-1 discard token".

He has ruled that Militia is one-at-a-time several times, because that's what "discard down to" means according to him.

I'm hoping that changes, if it hasn't already. It eliminate a lot of rules questions if Militia discards all at once, and it's what people mostly do in practice anyway.

I also thought it was better if Militia discards all at once, back when he ruled the other way many years ago. But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible. I just don't see how it's good for the game with rules changes unless it's absolutely necessary to fix a problem.

Other than the question of whether or not opponents are allowed to see both of the discarded cards; has it every mattered before Village Green whether it was one at a time or not?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2020, 02:24:35 pm »
+1

Other than the question of whether or not opponents are allowed to see both of the discarded cards; has it every mattered before Village Green whether it was one at a time or not?

Yes, ChipperMDW explained it in his edit above.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2020, 03:28:04 pm »
+4

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2020, 04:19:20 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2020, 04:40:17 pm »
+4

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2020, 06:09:35 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2020, 07:24:33 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.


I could see someone reading that rule and just assuming that it applies to Militia, simply because both the rule and Militia deal with discarding multiple cards. A casual, non-precise reading, could cause some people to think of the rules as instructions on how to discard multiple cards; not realizing that there is a potential different between discarding multiple cards “at once” vs “one at a time”.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2020, 07:25:41 pm »
+1

But I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible.


Game design isn't like the Ten Commandments coming down from heaven, things are always in flux. The fact that DXV changes and updates the rules is great and should be appreciated as not every designer does this.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2020, 07:48:42 pm »
0

In my view the problem is that people could play a game with Chameleon and Storyteller where it was a great combo, then play another game with another physical set or play online, and it's completely different. If you're not attentive to that, it has consequences for you, and why would you ever be attentive to that? It could be that the players in the game have different prior experiences; some expect it to work one way, some another way.

Sounds like Chameleon may be a definite pick for your online banlist :P

It seems like more generally you take issue with the existence of the 2E, as the problem you're describing already theoretically happens with various card combos between editions. Different players will have different expectations for how Possession, Masquerade, Trade Route- among others- combo with various cards based on the version they're used to.

I simply share the opinion that Donald used to have. None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received, or if they do, it's extremely marginal. (Masq is the obvious exception, although still pretty marginal, but it was errataed to avoid that very combo.) That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2020, 07:53:01 pm »
+2

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2020, 07:55:45 pm »
+1

Game design isn't like the Ten Commandments coming down from heaven, things are always in flux. The fact that DXV changes and updates the rules is great and should be appreciated as not every designer does this.

I kind of feel like you're misrepresenting what I said. Of course it's great when a new rule improves the game. For instance, the initial rule that TR+TR+Duration+Duration keeps both TR's in play was very confusing, and ultimately a simpler and much better rule was made. But... I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible - meaning a rule change should have a good reason. Nobody was complaining about the Militia rule, and nobody expressed confusion about it. Sure, many people were probably playing it wrong, but I guarantee you that many people are playing lots of these rules wrong, especially lose-track stuff, so I don't see that as a good reason to change the rules. Whoever wonders about a rule, can ask about it online, or probably more likely will search for it online, and will then find contradicting statements whenever there has been a rule change.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2020, 07:56:41 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2020, 08:02:22 pm »
+1

I could see someone reading that rule and just assuming that it applies to Militia, simply because both the rule and Militia deal with discarding multiple cards. A casual, non-precise reading, could cause some people to think of the rules as instructions on how to discard multiple cards; not realizing that there is a potential different between discarding multiple cards “at once” vs “one at a time”.

Maybe so, but I still think that this idea would be 90% because of Militia's actual card text, and 10% because of that rule. I see good reason, and have always seen good reason, for saying that Militia discards all at once, because yes that's the intuitive reading based on Militia's text. I just don't think "it should match the rulebook" is any kind of reason to rule that way, since the rulebook actually doesn't say that.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2020, 09:00:08 pm »
+1

My guess for the original ruling of Militia being one-at-a-time: Draw to X is one at a time, so why not discard down to X? I personally think that makes sense.
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2020, 09:49:42 pm »
+1

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.
Some of us are involved in programming language specification...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2020, 01:32:13 am »
+1

My guess for the original ruling of Militia being one-at-a-time: Draw to X is one at a time, so why not discard down to X? I personally think that makes sense.

I don't think the comparison works, because "+3 cards" is also one at a time, while "discard 3 cards" is not.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2020, 02:03:38 am »
0

None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received

That's definitely not true. There are a handful of cards which combo differently between editions as a result of intentional functional changes they received. I already listed some of them for you, such as Possession, which will interact with cards which cost/give debt in a completely different way, and Trade Route, which combos with cards like Hunting Grounds in 2E but not in 1E.


Or if they do, it's extremely marginal. That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.

"Marginal" in this case seems like a matter of opinion. I don't personally see how it's any less marginal than Trade Route working with on-trash VP gainers differently.

Posession handles an entire mechanic differently depending on which version you use. To me, that's far less marginal than this Way of the Chameleon discrepancy.
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segura

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2020, 02:31:43 am »
0

But... I think Dominion's rules should be stable as much as possible - meaning a rule change should have a good reason.
Nah. Dominion rules should be as much in flux as possible, in order to account for new or hitherto unseen combinations and interactions that require clarifications, amendments and changes.
That's simply how evolving card games (e.g. also CCGs and LCGs) are, rules do become more complex over time and change.

The option that you implicitly advocate is the lazy one (which is thankfully not the case here): a designer not caring about unclear stuff and updating the rules. The notion that you can see everything about something which is still evolving in advance is pretty unrealistic.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2020, 02:57:19 am »
+3

I simply share the opinion that Donald used to have. None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received, or if they do, it's extremely marginal. (Masq is the obvious exception, although still pretty marginal, but it was errataed to avoid that very combo.) That is not the case with 1E and 2E Cellar on a board with Way of the Chameleon.
I still heavily prefer not having errata. I just eventually hit the point of the errata being sufficiently necessary.

Errata is less of a problem today than it used to be; everyone has the combined knowledge of humanity in their pocket, and can look it up. It's still way better to not have it though. And I mean, that's my direction here with Militia; the rulebook says that you get to see only the top card, I want that to be the rule and to make sense.

You could make a thread in rules for this, present your case for your side; this thread is for bonus previews.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2020, 02:58:26 am »
+2

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?
I can say it. People in general heavily prefer not reading the rulebooks. You do really get something from having an intuitive result.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2020, 03:00:27 am »
+3

None of the 2E cards combo differently with other cards because of the changes they received

That's definitely not true. There are a handful of cards which combo differently between editions as a result of intentional functional changes they received. I already listed some of them for you, such as Possession, which will interact with cards which cost/give debt in a completely different way, and Trade Route, which combos with cards like Hunting Grounds in 2E but not in 1E.
And now Cellar (and Storeroom and Storyteller and Oracle) is functionally different with Way of the Chameleon (sadly).
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2020, 03:01:22 am »
+19

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2020, 03:04:10 am »
+1

I understand why it isn't, but given this it's kind of a shame that Populate is gain one from each Action pile, rather than just from each Kingdom pile.

(and uh I guess I'm glad that Alliance doesn't give you a Curse as well, although that would be cute for completeness's sake)
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2020, 03:15:11 am »
+1

The most common times this will bought will probably be when you are able to get the last province...if you're getting provinces as your main point source, the person who empties the last province(s) can now get 10 points for 10 coins instead of 6 points for 8 coins, since you don't mind the stop cards as much if you're trying to maximize points on your last 1-2 turns of the game. This will change the endgame math a bit. With 6 stop cards at once, I can't see you wanting to get this earlier over just Provinces unless you're playing something like a money deck with Palace, Gardens, etc.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2020, 03:15:50 am »
+2

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

The Bizarro Populate! 10 VP (under normal circumstances) for $10.

I wonder if we'll see a watchtower-like "exile on gain" that would make this a very attractive option.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2020, 03:19:06 am »
0

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

The Bizarro Populate! 10 VP (under normal circumstances) for $10.

I wonder if we'll see a watchtower-like "exile on gain" that would make this a very attractive option.

I've been wondering about an Exile version of Watchtower too.  It would seem to be an ideal fit for this event.  If you can instantly Exile them, then it's basically equivalent to a Colony for $1 less
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2020, 05:44:25 am »
0

So Alliance gives you 6 cards with 10 VP and 6$ among them. That's roughly 3 Harems + 3 Estates (+ 1VP).

Obviously good (1) in the end game when you just care about the VP and (2) if you can easily get rid of all the cards you don't want. Not so clear in many other cases.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2020, 07:58:51 am »
+3

Bonus Preview 4: Alliance

I guess it should be no surprise that some people wanted to see the teased cards; here's "province, a duchy":



You get all that stuff! You can't not take some of it.

I just want you to know that I’m extremely grateful for the extra effort you put in, not only previewing even more things, but also following the threads and clarifying things for us as we go! Is it possible to ask for a preview containing just the names of all the non-previewed cards from the expansion?

I have to reorganize my storage solution, so it would be an immensely helpful preview for me. I have everything so far, and I’m not planning on stopping. My 5-row BCW shoe box is packed, and I had to remove the randomizers earlier. Now I have to go to two (large e-raptor) boxes, so I’m really curious to see where to put everything.

A big THANK YOU, Donald! Both for the above-mentioned stuff and the fact that you’ve designed my favorite table-top game ever and continue to put out more cards. Fan for life, here!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2020, 08:11:08 am »
+5

Is it possible to ask for a preview containing just the names of all the non-previewed cards from the expansion?

Yes, it's possible to ask.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2020, 09:01:18 am »
+1

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

The rulebook says: "If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."
Defining Militia as one card at a time does not contradict this, since it doesn't even evoke the rule.

If all Dominion players were computers, this would be enough.

What do you mean? That the rule suggests that Militia makes you discard all at once? Why do you think that? Nobody would read that rule and conclude that Militia is all at once, nor that it's one at a time. That all comes from Militia's card text.

Nobody would read that rule at all. When possible, rules should match what’s intuitive.

Are you saying nobody would read the rulebook?
I can say it. People in general heavily prefer not reading the rulebooks. You do really get something from having an intuitive result.

Sure. But if that's what LastFootnote was saying, he was undermining his own point, and you are undermining yours too, which was that the ruling should change because that's somehow what the rulebook says.

This has been one of the oddest conversations I've had here (which says a lot):

-The Militia rule needs to change because of what the rulebook says.
-The rulebook doesn't say that.
-People are not computers.
-Do you mean that people would misinterpret the rulebook?
-People don't read rulebooks.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 10:29:01 am by Jeebus »
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2020, 10:46:23 am »
0

So far, we have seen: 15 Cards, leaving 15 for the release and remaining bonus previews; 5 Ways, leaving 15 for the release and remaining bonus previews; 4 Events, leaving 16 for the release and remaining bonus previews. With 8 days to go until the release (!), perhaps we could get 2 Cards, 2 Ways, 3 Events, and one day with just the names of the rest, leaving 13 of each for the release?

I don't have any specific things to ask for, though. I'm really enjoying them so far, and can't wait for the release! I always expect each expansion to be the last, so I am always pleasantly surprised when another one comes out.
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2020, 10:52:13 am »
+2

The most common times this will bought will probably be when you are able to get the last province...if you're getting provinces as your main point source, the person who empties the last province(s) can now get 10 points for 10 coins instead of 6 points for 8 coins, since you don't mind the stop cards as much if you're trying to maximize points on your last 1-2 turns of the game. This will change the endgame math a bit. With 6 stop cards at once, I can't see you wanting to get this earlier over just Provinces unless you're playing something like a money deck with Palace, Gardens, etc.

This changes the “Penultimate Province Rule” equation considerably, since now your opponent could get up to 10pts even if there is no +Buy.

Things like this are why I absolutely love events and other “landscape” cards - rather than just adding one new aspect to the game, they completely change the balance of some or all other components in the game, providing massive strategic variety. I for one would be glad for an expansion of just landscapes. I certainly think there is potential for more Landmarks - you can make ordinarily unplayable cards a must-buy with one of those in the right circumstances.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2020, 11:03:31 am »
+6

Oh man, these 3am (for me) previews have been a trip. I woke up just long enough to read the text of this Event, then proceeded to dream about it the rest of the night.

Minotaur

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2020, 11:28:51 am »
0

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

If, say, Barren Village - Action-Ruins-Reaction - +2 Actions ///// If you discard this other than during cleanup, gain a Ruins.......

...then accountability with pre-existing discarding is a big issue.

So it's sort of forbidden for a mechanic like that to exist.  A card that worked this way would have to come with setup rules that warp the rules of the entire game.

Unless it's just a card that is just too awesome to not exist and then we have to retroactively change all of the rules, and now Dominion logs tell us ALL OF THE DISCARDS.
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hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2020, 11:54:40 am »
+6

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

Militia's a debate because you can choose "now" for Village Green. The question is, "what if I discard down to three, but then I react and play a Village Green so I have 4 cards? Do I have to discard another one?" If they're discarded at once, and then reactions take effect, then the answer is "no, you've already discarded." But if they're discarded one-at-a-time, the answer is, "yes, you have finished discarding a card, and you have reacted to it. Now you have to check if there are more than 3 cards in your hand. There are, so discard another one."

If you have an opinion, you should go to the separate thread I started.
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2020, 12:03:05 pm »
+2

Alliance looks like it will have fun synergies with Groundskeeper and with Changeling...

(Not with Goons, alas.)
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Minotaur

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2020, 12:30:41 pm »
0

If you have an opinion, you should go to the separate thread I started.

Oh, ok.  Yes, that is tricky.

Do I just have to Search for it or what?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2020, 01:01:54 pm »
0

The option that you implicitly advocate is the lazy one (which is thankfully not the case here): a designer not caring about unclear stuff and updating the rules.

I don't think I'd go that far. I think a more charitable interpretation is that Jeebus advocates for an approach with greater pre-planning and consideration for how word/rule choices will impact future design space, which would actually take much more work up-front. Though you and I do agree that it's not realistic to expect to anticipate everything. Especially in a world with limited time where you actually need to start selling those expansions at some point.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2020, 01:22:56 pm »
0

Do I just have to Search for it or what?

Whoops! Forgot to link it.

Here is the link to the thread to which the debate has been moved. Also it's in Rules Questions.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2020, 01:27:35 pm »
+1

I'm definitely into having more expensive Events! I remember when it just seemed like a given that there'd never be Kingdom cards over $8, because they'd be so swingy and situational and terrible. Events are such an elegant way to implement expensive card ideas.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2020, 01:31:01 pm »
+3

I for one would be glad for an expansion of just landscapes. I certainly think there is potential for more Landmarks - you can make ordinarily unplayable cards a must-buy with one of those in the right circumstances.

I would also like to get even more Landmarks, but I think that an expansion of just landscapes (and other horizontal cards) would be a bad move businesswise. I may be wrong, but I suspect that a non-negligible part of potential buyers would think that they will could manage with just their own printouts for those cards, which probably isn't a big thing with cards that are in your deck.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2020, 02:05:46 pm »
+1

I for one would be glad for an expansion of just landscapes. I certainly think there is potential for more Landmarks - you can make ordinarily unplayable cards a must-buy with one of those in the right circumstances.

I would also like to get even more Landmarks, but I think that an expansion of just landscapes (and other horizontal cards) would be a bad move businesswise. I may be wrong, but I suspect that a non-negligible part of potential buyers would think that they will could manage with just their own printouts for those cards, which probably isn't a big thing with cards that are in your deck.

It'd also be the first expansion that wasn't playable with just itself + a pack of base cards, and an unsound business decision in that respect.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2020, 02:23:05 pm »
0

I for one would be glad for an expansion of just landscapes. I certainly think there is potential for more Landmarks - you can make ordinarily unplayable cards a must-buy with one of those in the right circumstances.

I would also like to get even more Landmarks, but I think that an expansion of just landscapes (and other horizontal cards) would be a bad move businesswise. I may be wrong, but I suspect that a non-negligible part of potential buyers would think that they will could manage with just their own printouts for those cards, which probably isn't a big thing with cards that are in your deck.

It'd also be the first expansion that wasn't playable with just itself + a pack of base cards, and an unsound business decision in that respect.

I suppose a man can dream...it could be a way to go back to small expansions though, to pad them with extra horizontals.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2020, 02:42:17 pm »
+3

I suppose a man can dream...it could be a way to go back to small expansions though, to pad them with extra horizontals.

Why would you want a small expansion, though, when you could have a large expansion?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2020, 03:34:36 pm »
+1

I suppose a man can dream...it could be a way to go back to small expansions though, to pad them with extra horizontals.

Why would you want a small expansion, though, when you could have a large expansion?
I expect if landscapes were to ever return, they’ll just be added to a large expansion like when events returned in Empires and Menagerie. Who knows, maybe we get a promo landmark some day.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #160 on: March 10, 2020, 04:47:27 pm »
+3

I just want you to know that I’m extremely grateful for the extra effort you put in, not only previewing even more things, but also following the threads and clarifying things for us as we go! Is it possible to ask for a preview containing just the names of all the non-previewed cards from the expansion?
Thanks, but I am going to leave it at a card a day; there isn't long to wait for the names anyway. If the set gets delayed a day or two, the rulebook still may not.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #161 on: March 10, 2020, 04:47:50 pm »
0

Who knows, maybe we get a promo landmark some day.

Summon.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #162 on: March 10, 2020, 05:59:06 pm »
+2

Who knows, maybe we get a promo landmark some day.

Summon.

Summon's an event, though, not a landmark
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #163 on: March 10, 2020, 06:14:34 pm »
0

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

Militia's a debate because you can choose "now" for Village Green. The question is, "what if I discard down to three, but then I react and play a Village Green so I have 4 cards? Do I have to discard another one?" If they're discarded at once, and then reactions take effect, then the answer is "no, you've already discarded." But if they're discarded one-at-a-time, the answer is, "yes, you have finished discarding a card, and you have reacted to it. Now you have to check if there are more than 3 cards in your hand. There are, so discard another one."

If you have an opinion, you should go to the separate thread I started.

Alternatively, just pick "next turn" and you not only get that card in your hand, but you're protected from other discard attacks and get to use the +Actions the card has to offer. A few edge cases where you wouldn't want to do that (e.g. Possession, Tormentor) but it's not a problem that will pop up in most games.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #164 on: March 10, 2020, 06:37:23 pm »
+1

Who knows, maybe we get a promo landmark some day.

Summon.

Summon's an event, though, not a landmark

Thought it said landscape. Oops.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #165 on: March 10, 2020, 07:11:56 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

But if you are discarding 2 Reaction cards do you only get to use the one you leave on top, as you have lost track of the Reaction that doesn't get shown?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #166 on: March 10, 2020, 07:27:00 pm »
+3

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

But if you are discarding 2 Reaction cards do you only get to use the one you leave on top, as you have lost track of the Reaction that doesn't get shown?
Lose-track / stop-moving (who knew that changing the name would just mean saying both names) no longer loses stuff in the discard pile. You can use both reactions. We can concoct a scenario where you can't use one of the reactions because the other causes you to shuffle your discard pile into your deck.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #167 on: March 10, 2020, 09:06:38 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

But if you are discarding 2 Reaction cards do you only get to use the one you leave on top, as you have lost track of the Reaction that doesn't get shown?
Lose-track / stop-moving (who knew that changing the name would just mean saying both names) no longer loses stuff in the discard pile. You can use both reactions. We can concoct a scenario where you can't use one of the reactions because the other causes you to shuffle your discard pile into your deck.

Even before the discard / stop-moving errata, you were able to use a Tunnel that was discarded with another card on top of it. Is there a rule that if a discarded Tunnel gets shuffled into your deck because of another reaction, that you can’t still use the Tunnel? Stop-moving doesn’t stop Tunnel from working, does it?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #168 on: March 10, 2020, 09:11:53 pm »
0

In order to match rulebook rulings (e.g., they only get to see one card), I think Militia has to be "pick the order, then discard them all at once." So that's my tentative ruling.

But if you are discarding 2 Reaction cards do you only get to use the one you leave on top, as you have lost track of the Reaction that doesn't get shown?
Lose-track / stop-moving (who knew that changing the name would just mean saying both names) no longer loses stuff in the discard pile. You can use both reactions. We can concoct a scenario where you can't use one of the reactions because the other causes you to shuffle your discard pile into your deck.

Even before the discard / stop-moving errata, you were able to use a Tunnel that was discarded with another card on top of it. Is there a rule that if a discarded Tunnel gets shuffled into your deck because of another reaction, that you can’t still use the Tunnel? Stop-moving doesn’t stop Tunnel from working, does it?

The reason it was possible to reveal a covered Tunnel from your discard pile must have been because you knew where the Tunnel was (and revealing it was not moving it, so lose-track didn't enter into it even when covered cards in discard were lost-track of). But if you actually shuffle the Tunnel, how can you reveal it?

hhelibebcnofnena

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #169 on: March 10, 2020, 10:01:02 pm »
+3

Late to the thread, but is Militia a problem yet?  Village Green could have been worded like Tunnel.  It's not unreasonable for the implied rules to be "yeah, it's basically like Tunnel".

Militia's a debate because you can choose "now" for Village Green. The question is, "what if I discard down to three, but then I react and play a Village Green so I have 4 cards? Do I have to discard another one?" If they're discarded at once, and then reactions take effect, then the answer is "no, you've already discarded." But if they're discarded one-at-a-time, the answer is, "yes, you have finished discarding a card, and you have reacted to it. Now you have to check if there are more than 3 cards in your hand. There are, so discard another one."

If you have an opinion, you should go to the separate thread I started.

Alternatively, just pick "next turn" and you not only get that card in your hand, but you're protected from other discard attacks and get to use the +Actions the card has to offer. A few edge cases where you wouldn't want to do that (e.g. Possession, Tormentor) but it's not a problem that will pop up in most games.

Of course, in actual games you can do that. But the rules need to support these ridiculous scenarios, don't they? Besides, edge-cases are fun!
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dsplaisted

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2020, 02:06:15 am »
0

My son loves Dominion and chickens are his favorite animal.

When he heard about the theme of this set he wanted to know if there would be a chicken card.

Can you spoil any chicken-related cards?

Thanks!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2020, 02:49:28 am »
+2

When he heard about the theme of this set he wanted to know if there would be a chicken card.

Can you spoil any chicken-related cards?
I don't know if this will do much for you, but there's one in the art for Livery.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2020, 02:57:22 am »
+7

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #173 on: March 11, 2020, 03:08:15 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

Hunh, so this gives you the opportunity to play a Treasure card after buying something else!  Interesting twist!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #174 on: March 11, 2020, 03:17:17 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2020, 03:18:15 am »
+1

Gamble + Village Green would be a decent combination.  Reveal the VG and play it, choosing the "next turn" option

Gamble + Patron would also be a good combination, since you'd be able to both reveal it for +1 coffers, and play it for +$2 and +1 villager, with the $2 returning what you spent on Gamble, netting you +1 coffer and +1 villager
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #176 on: March 11, 2020, 03:19:43 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #177 on: March 11, 2020, 03:28:57 am »
+3

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2020, 03:49:03 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.

Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier

Or you've drawn your deck already, and you can gain a card to your discard pile and play it right away with Gamble.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2020, 03:56:56 am »
+1

oh i guess if you have +buy token on Duchess tou can piledrive them (but why)
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LaLight

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #180 on: March 11, 2020, 03:57:27 am »
0

ah, no, sorry
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #181 on: March 11, 2020, 04:25:55 am »
0

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

another card contributing to infinite loops, huh

awesome

How would it make for an infinite loop?  You're either playing the card or discarding it, either way, the top card is different the next time you play it

yeah, but a lot of infinite loops on this site that i have seen used topdeciing and then drawing and playing all the same cards and now it is easier

I can see you could get a loop of quite a few iterations but you won’t get an infinite loop here - you need to keep generating +2 to keep buying Gamble, and you need to keep gaining something, otherwise your deck eventually runs out. Even for cards that give you both of those things, there are only a finite number of them in the supply.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #182 on: March 11, 2020, 04:56:53 am »
0

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #183 on: March 11, 2020, 05:04:54 am »
+5

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:50:50 am by DEGwer »
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DEGwer

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #184 on: March 11, 2020, 05:26:52 am »
+1

here's one: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17909.msg740343#msg740343

as far as i am aware there's more

It doesn't work now because the Overlord has changed. It does not trash itself now.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #185 on: March 11, 2020, 05:56:17 am »
+3

More practically relevant: whenever the mean $-producing-power of cards in your deck is > 2, you can and should gamble through your entire deck every turn. You can do this even if you draw a dud. Say you only have 4$. You just gamblegamblegamblegamblegamblegamble and (if the order of cards is not sufficiently unfortunate) end up with 4$ + <buying power in your deck> - 2*<number of cards in your deck>.

This means you can construct an arbitrarily strong deck without any draw in it. If you have, say, counterfeit, that is already enough. Trash your coppers, buy enough golds, and there you go – you'll even get the extra +buys by flipping counterfeits with Gamble. You can also mix in lots of terminal +$ like wine merchant.
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #186 on: March 11, 2020, 06:02:42 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #187 on: March 11, 2020, 06:07:39 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #188 on: March 11, 2020, 06:47:27 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on

Yes, I see, having played the Platina mid-loop. Neat - and only requires KC, Lurker, Watchtower, Mandarin, a card that gives tokens, Colony/Platinum and two events!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #189 on: March 11, 2020, 07:26:45 am »
+2

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

After you’ve bought the Bonfire, how do you restart the loop?

Well, you buy Gamble and so on

Yes, I see, having played the Platina mid-loop. Neat - and only requires KC, Lurker, Watchtower, Mandarin, a card that gives tokens, Colony/Platinum and two events!

Actually, Platinums are not necessary because we can just replace them by bunch of Golds. Tokens can also be omitted because we can do like KC(gamble)-KC-Lurker-Margrave-Lurker. We can do similar things via Toil. Furthermore, we don't even need Mandarin; if we played some number of Priests, we can afford to buy Gamble and Bonfire by Bonfire itself (although I don't like infinite loops that depend on Priests).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:31:04 am by DEGwer »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #190 on: March 11, 2020, 07:38:34 am »
+1

and we can have most of the cards from a single black market
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #191 on: March 11, 2020, 09:57:09 am »
+1

Thoughts on bonus previews:

Way of the Chameleon: It seems really powerful with non-terminal money cards like Courtier or Coven, but in the typical case it probably just ensures that there are even more options for draw.  And you can turn your overdraw into $$.  Overall, I suspect this is less zany than it first appears.  But I'm sure my friends and I will have fun arguing about the rules.

Way of the Rat: I had a fan event that was pretty similar to this.  TBH, it was a dud, just not very interesting--sometimes cards were cheaper, and that was it.  I think this one's a bit more interesting though, because it costs an action rather than coin.

Village Green: Maybe we can revisit those days when people thought Tunnel was really powerful, and tried triggering the reaction every way imaginable.  And then people seem to have figured out that tunnels aren't that strong.  But maybe this could be strong?  Well it's a village+, so the floor is pretty high.

Alliance: I love this.  Something that really appeals to me about Dominion, is this narrative arc where you build up, and then your deck slowly collapses as you cash out.  Alliance offers the option for even more dramatic collapse.  I sure hope this is good sometimes.

Gamble: The first main use I see is to clear out the bottom of your shuffle, especially if you know what's down there and don't want it to skip.  The second main use is, when drawing deck, to play something you just gained.  Like Innovation.  Innovation is good, so I'm sure this is good as well.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #192 on: March 11, 2020, 10:59:34 am »
+1

Seems like a really good use would be with cards like Barge or Mastermind.  If you bought them and topdecked them, then bought Gamble, you can get them played right at the start of your next turn

Way of the Turtle + Gamble would be really strong, especially with topdecking
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #193 on: March 11, 2020, 11:02:34 am »
+3

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

Nice loop.

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #194 on: March 11, 2020, 11:13:36 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 5: Gamble

Here's another Event. They travel in pairs.



Sometimes, it's really a gamble. Sometimes you know what card is next. Sometimes you even just bought it.

Wow, playing Actions in your Buy phase seems to be the new thing. Before we had Capitalism, Innovation and Scepter. Before that, getting +Actions in your Buy phase was some weird edge case scenario that people asked about and was only possible with +1 Action token on Crown or a split pile, or an Echanted Crown.

Now we have, so far, also Gamble and Toil. And with Ways, Crown can do Action-y things in your Buy phase.

I also think this is the first card that directly lets you play a Treasure in the second part of your Buy phase (when you're buying cards). Before, this was only possible with Innovation in combination with Crown, Black Market or Storyteller.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:15:07 am by Jeebus »
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #195 on: March 11, 2020, 11:17:19 am »
0

Here is an infinite loop:

+1 Card on King's Court
+1 Buy on Lurker
a Watchtower in hand
a King's Court, a Lurker and a Mandarin in Trash
2 Platinums in play


buy Gamble to play King's Court (Draw a Lurker via +1 Card token)
play this Lurker three times, gain Lurker (top), King's Court (top), Mandarin (trash)
gaining Mandarin topdecks 2 Platinums
buy Gamble twice to play them
buy Bonfire to trash a King's Court and a Lurker

Here we gain 10$ and 3 Buys by spending 9$ and 1 Buy. The board is now identical to the begging. That is an infinite loop.

Nice loop.

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.

I made the chances of getting the exact five cards required in any given kingdom as just over one in five trillion. Plus you’ve got the two events, I suppose, but my statistics A-Level was too long ago...
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #196 on: March 11, 2020, 11:40:15 am »
+4

That being said, infinite loops already exist without this card. It's not even worth paying attention to the existence of a loop if it requires more than 5 specific cards (it's almost never going to come up). This requires at least 6 specific cards (don't forget the bonus tokens requires peasant). It's possible, but this is not something that going to come up realistically in gamble games.
Really, anything with more than 3 specific card-shaped things is not worth considering outside of puzzles.

That said, Gamble + Mandarin is definitely a combo worth keeping in mind, especially with Treasures that make +buy. Just imagine a Mandarin/Capital/Gamble deck...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 am by faust »
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dsplaisted

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #197 on: March 11, 2020, 12:04:06 pm »
+2

When he heard about the theme of this set he wanted to know if there would be a chicken card.

Can you spoil any chicken-related cards?
I don't know if this will do much for you, but there's one in the art for Livery.

Well, it's better than nothing.  :)

How about Way of the Chicken as a promo card?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #198 on: March 11, 2020, 01:14:42 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?
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villafan001

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #199 on: March 11, 2020, 01:20:18 pm »
+6

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #200 on: March 11, 2020, 01:28:31 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #201 on: March 11, 2020, 01:31:36 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck! (No, you don't actually play it from your deck, you reveal it first.)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 02:52:55 pm by Jeebus »
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #202 on: March 11, 2020, 01:38:48 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

The closest examples I can find are cases involving gaining and without a "may": "If X, gain Y. Otherwise, do Z".

In these cases if the Y pile is empty, such that you cannot gain Y, I'm fairly certain you wouldn't do Z.

Example: Jester: "Each other player discards the top card of their deck. If it's a Victory card they gain a Curse; otherwise they gain a copy of the discarded card or you do, your choice."

So discard a Province, no curses left, there's no way you'd gain a Province.

(other such examples are Tormentor and Leprechaun)

« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 01:41:38 pm by scolapasta »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #203 on: March 11, 2020, 02:15:09 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 02:17:37 pm by GendoIkari »
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popsofctown

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #204 on: March 11, 2020, 02:29:48 pm »
+1

tfw you Freudian slip one of DXV's other games
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ben_king

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #205 on: March 11, 2020, 02:48:43 pm »
+2

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.
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michaeljb

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #206 on: March 11, 2020, 02:54:52 pm »
+1

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

Also a programmer, also how I interpreted it  ;D

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

I thought there had been a ruling about when a card is revealed, the default is that it returns to where it was revealed from, assuming the effect that revealed it didn't provide further instruction. I'm pretty sure it came up around Herald.

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Well I guess that settles it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #207 on: March 11, 2020, 02:58:32 pm »
+2

If you choose not to play the Action/Treasure that Gamble reveals, it just returns to the top of the deck, right?

No, the “otherwise, discard it” means “discard it if you didn’t play it” regardless of what the card type is.

That's not how I interpret this. Maybe it's the programmer in me, but I see the "otherwise" only activating if the "if" condition ("if it's a Treasure or Action") returns false.

I agree, but it's definitely unclear.

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!

No, Herald did also.

Given that it gets discarded otherwise though; I have to wonder why Donald didn't use the Vassal wording?

Actually, this makes me pretty sure that you get to keep an unplayed Action or Treasure on top of your deck. If it did get discarded or played no matter what, I'm pretty sure he would have used Vassal's wording. The difference between Gamble and Vassal is specifically that with Greed you can choose to not play an action and just keep it on top. Which you're going to want to do plenty often.

The reason it doesn't use the Vassal wording is that Vassal is already messy with Village Green, and the idea was not to replicate that with Gamble.

The wording of Gamble is ambiguous, but a clear ruling has been made: unplayed Treasures and Actions are discarded.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #208 on: March 11, 2020, 02:58:59 pm »
0

This is actually the first card that plays a card from your deck!
No, Herald did also.

D'oh. I thought Gamble played the card directly from your deck for some reason. But of course it's just like Herald, it plays a card revealed from your deck. Golem and Venture also do this, although not the top card.

EDIT: But Vassal is the only card that plays a card from your discard pile (and will remain so it seems).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:03:58 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #209 on: March 11, 2020, 03:00:53 pm »
0

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #210 on: March 11, 2020, 03:06:27 pm »
+2

Just thought of something: How does Village Green + Vassal work?  Taking the wording literally, it seems like Vassal would essentially allow you to play Village Green twice.  Vassal says "Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.", so it seems like you should be able to both play it with Vassal, and play the Reaction.  Or would the stop-moving rule apply here, and after VG's reaction Vassal can no longer put it into play?
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #211 on: March 11, 2020, 03:07:43 pm »
0

The reason it doesn't use the Vassal wording is that Vassal is already messy with Village Green,
and with Faithful Hound

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #212 on: March 11, 2020, 03:09:48 pm »
0

Just thought of something: How does Village Green + Vassal work?  Taking the wording literally, it seems like Vassal would essentially allow you to play Village Green twice.  Vassal says "Discard the top card of your deck. If it is an Action card, you may play it.", so it seems like you should be able to both play it with Vassal, and play the Reaction.  Or would the stop-moving rule apply here, and after VG's reaction Vassal can no longer put it into play?

Yes, this is like Vassal + Faithful Hound. You may resolve the Faithful Hound, setting it aside, and then play it with Vassal (failing to put it into play).
With Village Green, you may resolve the Village Green, playing it, and then play it with Vassal (failing to put it into play - but of course it's already there).

Edit: I assume that a "Mining Village Green" played this way, if not trashed the first time, is lost track of when Vassal plays it, so it can't trash itself. Hmm, no I think it should work actually.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 03:20:03 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #213 on: March 11, 2020, 05:45:28 pm »
+3

On Discord, Donald X. has said

Quote from: Donald X.
If you don't play the card you discard it, whether or not it's an Action/Treasure.

The wording is the way it is because of various cards that can move when they're discarded.  There's less potential confusion if you can't both move it with its reaction and play it.

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.
And use the small font. The card just wouldn't have existed with that wording, because I vowed not to use the small font.

You can also not put +1 Buy on its own line, but it's not delightful to make exceptions there.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #214 on: March 11, 2020, 05:51:37 pm »
0

Fix for next printing: If you didn't play it, discard it.
And use the small font. The card just wouldn't have existed with that wording, because I vowed not to use the small font.

You can also not put +1 Buy on its own line, but it's not delightful to make exceptions there.

"If you didn't, discard it" would actually be enough. Not sure if that would fit.

Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #215 on: March 12, 2020, 03:00:08 am »
+18

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #216 on: March 12, 2020, 03:15:47 am »
+5

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.

Costing only 3, this seems quite good compared to duplicate, although I do see 2 downsides: you can't get victory cards with camel train and you have to know what card you want in advance (which admittedly could be a big difference in certain cases). Oh, and I just realized another caveat with exile...if the kingdom pile runs out, then you end up with not getting any exiled copies into your deck; imagine someone playing this multiple times late in the game on something like King's Court but then your opponent empties the pile leaving you with King's Courts stuck in exile. It's the ultimate "Yes, I definitely buy this to deny my opponent 3 copies of a card" (probably won't be too common but certainly could show up). The free gold at some point in the future is a pretty decent bonus, though; if you do end up wanting 1 gold, you will usually be happy with 2. If you don't want the gold, you aren't forced to ever take it.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #217 on: March 12, 2020, 03:16:46 am »
0

Bonus Preview 6: Camel Train

If you were wondering what else Exile could do, here is one such thing.



This can pick away at piles like a Lurker, but the cards are all reserved for you, provided you someday manage to get one honestly. Or if you don't ever need to draw them, but want them sitting there, it will do that for you too. And it comes with the promise of a Gold.

Yes!  My prediction that there'd be something similar to Lurker using the Exile mat was correct!  This card looks pretty convenient.  Would be great when you're trying to end the game on piles and don't want to end up with a bunch of useless cards in your deck, but also great for getting extra copies of cards you want in your deck, and therefore are going to be buying anyways
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #218 on: March 12, 2020, 03:25:43 am »
0

Costing only 3, this seems quite good compared to duplicate, although I do see 2 downsides: you can't get victory cards with camel train and you have to know what card you want in advance (which admittedly could be a big difference in certain cases). Oh, and I just realized another caveat with exile...if the kingdom pile runs out, then you end up with not getting any exiled copies into your deck; imagine someone playing this multiple times late in the game on something like King's Court but then your opponent empties the pile leaving you with King's Courts stuck in exile. It's the ultimate "Yes, I definitely buy this to deny my opponent 3 copies of a card" (probably won't be too common but certainly could show up). The free gold at some point in the future is a pretty decent bonus, though; if you do end up wanting 1 gold, you will usually be happy with 2. If you don't want the gold, you aren't forced to ever take it.

Or even just your opponent using their own Camel Train to Exile the last KC - sure, they won't be able to use it, but they're keeping you from using your three KC's.  I suppose you'd generally want to be careful about using this if the pile is getting low and you're not going to be able to buy a copy that same turn for this very reason

I wonder how often you'd have a situation where someone uses Camel Train to Exile one or more copies of a card they want, and then buy that same card in their Buy phase to immediately discard from the Exile mat.  Seems like that would happen fairly often

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #219 on: March 12, 2020, 03:28:42 am »
+1

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
Exiling is not gaining; this has been covered in these forums.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #220 on: March 12, 2020, 03:33:31 am »
0

So, the flavor text mentions 9 animals: Elephant, mice, horses, dogs, goat, rats, fox, camels, and turtle

Of those animals, we've seen 5: Camels, Horses, (Sheep)dogs, Rats, and Turtle, the last two as Ways, and the leaked Ways list also has Goat and Mouse, so, all but the Elephant and the Fox.  I'm wondering if those are also going to be cards now (maybe both attack cards?)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 03:35:26 am by mxdata »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #221 on: March 12, 2020, 03:34:16 am »
0

Exiling does not count as gaining though, correct?  So, e.g., if you used Camel Train to Exile something with an on-gain bonus (such as this very card!) you don't get that bonus, yes?
Exiling is not gaining; this has been covered in these forums.
Just confirming that I was remembering that correctly, thanks :)
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LordClockworks

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #222 on: March 12, 2020, 06:47:01 am »
+3

Camel Train seems to be a cool new way of hoarding unused cards as well: For example you can hoard 10 coppers for Fountain, a mountain of useless actions for Vineyard or a mountain of silvers for Feodum and skip the pain of having to draw all of it. Or and you can simply hoard anything useless for your Gardens as well!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #223 on: March 12, 2020, 06:59:27 am »
+1

So some people will use Camel Train to stockpile stuff they don't want in Exile? I see entertaining possibilities for a novel use of Swindler, here. (-8<
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #224 on: March 12, 2020, 07:03:42 am »
+1

Also, is it my imagination or is Camel Train the sweetest support for Gardens in the whole game?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #225 on: March 12, 2020, 07:46:53 am »
+4

Also, is it my imagination or is Camel Train the sweetest support for Gardens in the whole game?

beggar tho
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #226 on: March 12, 2020, 07:59:58 am »
0

Getting two exiled cards feels stronger than gaining 3 Coppers to hand? Especially since one of them can be from a pile the other players possibly wanted for their strategy and/or lets you three-pile quicker.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #227 on: March 12, 2020, 08:47:14 am »
+1

Feels like Workshop is better, because you can actually gain Gardens with it.  Eventually with Camel Train you'll need to figure out how you're going to consistently hit 4 while flooding with Gardens.

Beggar has that same advantage, flooding your deck with stuff and also helping you actually get Gardens.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #228 on: March 12, 2020, 10:06:24 am »
+1

Yeah I'm pretty sure that Camel Train is pretty crap with Gardens. You'll never get to unexile those Golds because you'll never hit $6. You'll struggle to hit $4 quickly.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #229 on: March 12, 2020, 10:23:25 am »
+3

^ that will almost certainly happen. Also, you only gain the second card if you buy camel train. Beggar gives you 3 cards every time you play it.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #230 on: March 12, 2020, 11:55:28 am »
+2

If I play Wishing Well and wish for a Caravan, will it also find a Camel Train? (Sorry, stupid joke.)

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #231 on: March 12, 2020, 11:58:39 am »
+1

If I play Wishing Well and wish for a Caravan, will it also find a Camel Train? (Sorry, stupid joke.)

It was good until you ruined it with the parenthetical.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #232 on: March 12, 2020, 12:09:07 pm »
+1

One dilemma this card presents: Do you exile a card that you're likely to gain this shuffle, or do you speculatively exile a card that you'll gain in a future shuffle?

I guess the way I use Duplicate, I often let it sit on the mat through shuffles, to wait for a better card.  Camel Train seems even better for this purpose, as Camel Train will not skip shuffles.  So we may see a lot of exiling-for-later with Camel Train.  Looking forward to it.


Something I'd like to see in future bonus previews, are attacks, or otherwise interactive cards/landscapes.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #233 on: March 12, 2020, 12:09:27 pm »
+2

If I play Wishing Well and wish for a Caravan, will it also find a Camel Train? (Sorry, stupid joke.)

It was good until you ruined it with the parenthetical.

Jokes are always funnier after you explain them.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #234 on: March 12, 2020, 12:14:30 pm »
+3

If I play Wishing Well and wish for a Caravan, will it also find a Camel Train? (Sorry, stupid joke.)

It was good until you ruined it with the parenthetical.

Jokes are always funnier after you explain them.

Also, everybody takes my jokes seriously if I don't (like the one about Way of the Chameleon being zoologically exotic). But arguably that makes the joke funnier, because I actually seem like an idiot.

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #235 on: March 13, 2020, 03:20:09 am »
+11

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #236 on: March 13, 2020, 03:31:11 am »
+5

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #237 on: March 13, 2020, 03:38:48 am »
+1

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.

"Hey, thanks for the free Horses!"
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #238 on: March 13, 2020, 03:44:34 am »
+2

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.

Yes, in those 0.049 % of games they’re both included... Twice every 4 071 games.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 03:47:43 am by Oyvind »
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #239 on: March 13, 2020, 03:47:42 am »
+6

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.

"Hey, thanks for the free Horses!"

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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #240 on: March 13, 2020, 03:59:48 am »
0

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.

Yes, in those 0.049 % of games they’re both included... Twice every 4 071 games.

Oh, for sure it's gonna be rare.  Even the more general combination of Looter + Way of the Horse will be rare.  Still, it's a pretty funny interaction.  And also, Ruins become quite appealing to buy in the rare games with both Way of the Horse and at least one Looter
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #241 on: March 13, 2020, 04:03:34 am »
+7

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.

In games with Shelters, you basically have a free Lab, since there's no pile for Necropolis to be returned to, so that would be pretty useful!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #242 on: March 13, 2020, 04:20:06 am »
+12

Bonus Preview 7: Way of the Horse



Everything's a Horse! Handy if there are actions you don't want anymore, or never wanted, or if you're desperate.
And suddenly Cultist becomes the worst card in the game.
But at least you can get rid of it once you realize that!
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #243 on: March 13, 2020, 04:24:43 am »
0

Feels like Workshop is better, because you can actually gain Gardens with it.  Eventually with Camel Train you'll need to figure out how you're going to consistently hit 4 while flooding with Gardens.

Beggar has that same advantage, flooding your deck with stuff and also helping you actually get Gardens.
Well, you aren't forced to keep every card exiled. You can start exiling silvers till a point you ready to go gardens(preferably just before a shuffle), then gain one silver and then your next shuffle is flooded with money to gain gardens, while you can start exiling gold to fight for provinces/duchies on lucky turns. So no - i think it is a good garden enabler.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #244 on: March 13, 2020, 04:53:50 am »
+1

Feels like Workshop is better, because you can actually gain Gardens with it.  Eventually with Camel Train you'll need to figure out how you're going to consistently hit 4 while flooding with Gardens.

Beggar has that same advantage, flooding your deck with stuff and also helping you actually get Gardens.
Well, you aren't forced to keep every card exiled. You can start exiling silvers till a point you ready to go gardens(preferably just before a shuffle), then gain one silver and then your next shuffle is flooded with money to gain gardens, while you can start exiling gold to fight for provinces/duchies on lucky turns. So no - i think it is a good garden enabler.
If you're playing a Gardens rush, the point when you're ready to go for Gardens should be like the third shuffle. The "flood" of Silvers at that point is like 2 at best.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #245 on: March 13, 2020, 05:20:37 am »
+5

Another interesting aspect of way of the horse is that it makes 3-piling much harder. Have a great deck but the game is about to end? Return some of your cards to the supply.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #246 on: March 13, 2020, 05:21:30 am »
+4

Also, I believe all cards out of the black market become labs?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #247 on: March 13, 2020, 05:26:06 am »
+8

Also, I believe all cards out of the black market become labs?
Correct. Necropolis, Zombies, and Black Market cards have no pile to return to.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #248 on: March 13, 2020, 05:34:14 am »
0

can necromancer play cards from trash as Horses?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #249 on: March 13, 2020, 06:06:45 am »
0

can necromancer play cards from trash as Horses?

I’m not DXV, but why couldn’t you?
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #250 on: March 13, 2020, 06:08:00 am »
+4

can necromancer play cards from trash as Horses?

I’m not DXV, but why couldn’t you?

Yes you can do that. They don't return to their piles (stop moving rule), but they're still Labs for Necromancer.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #251 on: March 13, 2020, 06:15:58 am »
+2

can necromancer play cards from trash as Horses?

I’m not DXV, but why couldn’t you?

You can play the card, but it won’t return to it’s pile, as you’re actually playing Necromancer, which tells you to leave the card in the Trash. This overrides the text of the Way that tries to move the second action card.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #252 on: March 13, 2020, 07:37:02 am »
0

Feels like Workshop is better, because you can actually gain Gardens with it.  Eventually with Camel Train you'll need to figure out how you're going to consistently hit 4 while flooding with Gardens.

Beggar has that same advantage, flooding your deck with stuff and also helping you actually get Gardens.
Well, you aren't forced to keep every card exiled. You can start exiling silvers till a point you ready to go gardens(preferably just before a shuffle), then gain one silver and then your next shuffle is flooded with money to gain gardens, while you can start exiling gold to fight for provinces/duchies on lucky turns. So no - i think it is a good garden enabler.
If you're playing a Gardens rush, the point when you're ready to go for Gardens should be like the third shuffle. The "flood" of Silvers at that point is like 2 at best.
I was talking more about a gardens slog. Thats the main synergy of CT with gardens after all. You can keep exiling hoards of useless cards upping your gardens points without junking your deck. Though if you aren't trying 3-pile exiling gold is probably the smartest option.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #253 on: March 13, 2020, 08:07:14 am »
+5

can necromancer play cards from trash as Horses?

I’m not DXV, but why couldn’t you?

You can play the card, but it won’t return to it’s pile, as you’re actually playing Necromancer, which tells you to leave the card in the Trash. This overrides the text of the Way that tries to move the second action card.

For accuracy, the “leaving it there” part stops it from moving to in-play; the fact that it isn’t in the in-play area is what stops it from returning to its pile.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #254 on: March 13, 2020, 08:08:06 am »
+1

I love that Way of the Horse just turns any card into Horse; and I hate that I didn’t think of it in the Ways prediction thread.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #255 on: March 13, 2020, 09:11:13 am »
+9

If you play a Horse as a Horse instead of as a Horse, that is probably a metaphor for something.
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Re: Menagerie Bonus Previews
« Reply #256 on: March 13, 2020, 09:27:32 am »
0

I am enjoying all of the Ways cards, but could we see 1 or 2 of the reaction cards? It would be cool if one of the ways was a reaction.
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