Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All

Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards  (Read 18179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5923
  • Respect: +23864
    • View Profile
Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« on: March 06, 2020, 03:00:10 am »
+22

And here we are with... more cards.



I warned you that there were more Duration cards. Here's Mastermind, which is like King's Court but slower. You can King's Court a King's Court in one turn; with Mastermind that's play Mastermind, next turn Mastermind a Mastermind, next turn actually play three things three times.

Menagerie has two minor themes I didn't mention yet. Surprise! The first one is reaction cards; there are five of them. Five! Four of them do the trick Sheepdog did of letting you play them at an unusual time; Black Cat is one of those. It's a Witch they have to activate for you. I will just point out now: when they gain a Province and that lets you use Black Cat, the other players gain Curses and that lets them use Sheepdogs.

The other minor theme is cards with weird costs; there are four of these, including Animal Fair. Wayfarer's weird cost is whatever the previous card cost. You could play Bureaucrat, gain a Silver, then Wayfarer costs $3. Or with two Buys, buy a Copper, now Wayfarer costs $0. Or buy an Engineer for 4 Debt and well now Wayfarer costs 4 Debt.

That's all the previews you were expecting! The cards will continue to be playable online through the weekend, then vanish, then come out properly online when the physical version is out. We still expect it around March 18.

This time for no special reason I am going to keep previewing cards until the set comes out or the rulebook is posted. These cards won't be playable online (until the whole set comes out), they will just be images to look at and ponder. I'll do one a day, and if people request stuff they'd like to see, I'll try to pick one of those things. They can be kingdom cards or sideways ones.
Logged

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2020, 03:09:24 am »
+1

I love Black Cat.  Could be very interesting in multiplayer.  Especially if multiple people react with Black Cat

This raises a rules question.  If player A gains a Victory card, and players B and C both respond with Black Cat, what order are the curses distributed in?  Supposing A B C D is play order.  Presumably B's reaction would trigger first, but who gets the first curse from B's reaction?  Does it go from B, so that C gets the first curse, or does it go from A, so that A gets the first curse?

Wayfarer would have a nice interaction with Supplies.  Since Supplies causes you to gain a Horse, then if you'd played that, Wayfarer's cost would be $3
Logged
They/them

Jimmmmm

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1759
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jimmmmm
  • Respect: +2001
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2020, 03:16:27 am »
+3

Presumably Wayfarer also counts cards gained by other players? So giving out a Curse or Ruins sets the cost to $0.
Logged

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2020, 03:17:34 am »
0

Is Black Cat the first Attack-Reaction card?  I can't think of any other cards with that combination of types
Logged
They/them

Violet CLM

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Respect: +373
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2020, 03:24:30 am »
+4

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to gain a card and then change how much that same card would cost--various Peddler tricks, for example--but I'm guessing none of that matters and all Wayfarer cares about is how much the gained card cost at the time it was gained?

Guessing also that overpay doesn't matter and if you pay $5 while buying a Doctor then Wayfarer still costs $3?

Less sure about what happens if you put the Ferry token on the Wayfarer pile. Suppose you haven't gained any cards yet in a turn, and buy a reduced-cost Wayfarer for $4... would a second Wayfarer then cost $2, and a third $0?
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2020, 03:25:27 am »
+3

Curses are handed out in turn order, so for B's Black Cat it would be A, then C then D. Then it is again B's turn to play Reactions (maybe they had more than 1 Black Cat, maybe they draw one from the first). When C plays their Black Cat, Curses go to A, then B then D.

Yes, Wayfarer takes into account gains by all players, so handing out Curses/Ruins drop the cost to $0 (until the next gain)

Yes, I also think it is the first Reaction-Attack card.
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2020, 03:32:48 am »
+5

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to gain a card and then change how much that same card would cost--various Peddler tricks, for example--but I'm guessing none of that matters and all Wayfarer cares about is how much the gained card cost at the time it was gained?

Nope, Wayfarer will continue to monitor the gained card and will change cost accordingly.

Guessing also that overpay doesn't matter and if you pay $5 while buying a Doctor then Wayfarer still costs $3?

Yes, that's right. Technically, you paid $3 for Doctor, and then as an on-buy effect paid $2 for overpay. This matters with Basilica, for example.

Less sure about what happens if you put the Ferry token on the Wayfarer pile. Suppose you haven't gained any cards yet in a turn, and buy a reduced-cost Wayfarer for $4... would a second Wayfarer then cost $2, and a third $0?

Cost reductions for Wayfarer are a bit unintuitive for me.

If during a turn nothing was gained yet, or only Wayfarers were gained, everything behaves as normal: Your first, second,... Wayfarers all cost $4 with your Ferry example. If you then gain something else (say a Silver from a Wayfarer playing), you only look at what Silver costs (after applying any reductions to Silver) and don't adjust any more. Since the Silver costs $3, so does the Wayfarer.

Another example: You have bought Canal (a Project that lower's all card's cost by $1 during your turns). Wayfarer costs $5 initially. If you buy a Silver, Wayfarer costs $2 now.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 03:36:16 am by Ingix »
Logged

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2020, 03:38:24 am »
0

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to gain a card and then change how much that same card would cost--various Peddler tricks, for example--but I'm guessing none of that matters and all Wayfarer cares about is how much the gained card cost at the time it was gained?

Nope, Wayfarer will continue to monitor the gained card and will change cost accordingly.

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly: suppose that you've played three Actions, so that Peddler costs $2 (and assuming no other price reduction).  You buy a Peddler, then a Wayfarer.  The Wayfarer costs what you paid for the Peddler, i.e., $2, correct?

Suppose that you were then able to play another Action, via the Toil event say, so that it would now cost $0 to buy a Peddler.  Is Wayfarer still $2, or is it now $0, the cost of Peddler at the time you're buying the Wayfarer?
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2020, 03:45:46 am »
0

Something I just realized - it's not "when another player buys a Victory", but when they gain one.  So you could trigger the reaction yourself, for example, by using Ambassador to give your opponents Estates, or using Swindler to trash a $2 card into an Estate or a $5 card into a Duchy
Logged
They/them

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3014
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +4250
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2020, 03:47:51 am »
+1

Gaining a Wayfarer definitely causes a weird infinite loop in which the only real information available about the Wayfarer is "The cost of this is the cost of this." So if I gain a Curse, then a Wayfarer (costing $0), upon gaining the Wayfarer, does it revert to costing $6 or does it stay at its last-defined cost?

EDIT: Oh I realized that it says "last other card". Nice way to avoid self-referentiality, but now I want to break it. It's actually fairly easy; just gain a Curse, and then 2 Wayfarers. Now Wayfarer B has the cost of Wayfarer A, and Wayfarer A has the cost of Wayfarer B. But what is the cost?

Other fun fact: Wayfarer is the first card since Alchemy to interact with Apprentice's weird Potion clause.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 03:52:47 am by faust »
Logged
The quiet comprehending of the ending of it all

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3014
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +4250
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2020, 03:49:04 am »
+3

Something I just realized - it's not "when another player buys a Victory", but when they gain one.  So you could trigger the reaction yourself, for example, by using Ambassador to give your opponents Estates, or using Swindler to trash a $2 card into an Estate or a $5 card into a Duchy
Yeah, but then you're still playing the Black Cat on your turn, so it becomes a Lab, but doesn't give out a Curse. Three-player games with Ambassador and Black Cat will be a huge mess though.
Logged
The quiet comprehending of the ending of it all

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2020, 03:51:11 am »
0

Something I just realized - it's not "when another player buys a Victory", but when they gain one.  So you could trigger the reaction yourself, for example, by using Ambassador to give your opponents Estates, or using Swindler to trash a $2 card into an Estate or a $5 card into a Duchy
Yeah, but then you're still playing the Black Cat on your turn, so it becomes a Lab, but doesn't give out a Curse. Three-player games with Ambassador and Black Cat will be a huge mess though.

Oh, duh.  That's what I get for posting sleep-deprived.   I completely overlooked the "if it's not your turn" clause
Logged
They/them

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2020, 03:54:29 am »
+1

Gaining a Wayfarer definitely causes a weird infinite loop in which the only real information available about the Wayfarer is "The cost of this is the cost of this." So if I gain a Curse, then a Wayfarer (costing $0), upon gaining the Wayfarer, does it revert to costing $6 or does it stay at its last-defined cost?

EDIT: Oh I realized that it says "last other card". Nice way to avoid self-referentiality, but now I want to break it.

Other fun fact: Wayfarer is the first card since Alchemy to interact with Apprentice's weird Potion clause.

Hmm ... so that cost would still apply during your Action phase, right?  E.g., for the purposes of trash-for-benefit cards?  So, you play a Witch, and now it becomes worthless if you try to trash a Wayfarer with, say, Scrap.  On the other hand, Exiling doesn't count as gaining, if I recall correctly, so Coven wouldn't reduce its cost.  Man, the weirdness just keeps increasing with that card!
Logged
They/them

Kudasai

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +282
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2020, 04:05:00 am »
0

I'll do one a day, and if people request stuff they'd like to see, I'll try to pick one of those things. They can be kingdom cards or sideways ones.

If there is some sort of Veterinarian card I request that please. Someone in my play group is going to school for that, so it would be a real treat!
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5923
  • Respect: +23864
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2020, 04:13:28 am »
+2

EDIT: Oh I realized that it says "last other card". Nice way to avoid self-referentiality, but now I want to break it. It's actually fairly easy; just gain a Curse, and then 2 Wayfarers. Now Wayfarer B has the cost of Wayfarer A, and Wayfarer A has the cost of Wayfarer B. But what is the cost?
It's "other" meaning "other than a Wayfarer." Which the rulebook clarifies.
Logged

pst

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 576
  • Respect: +891
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2020, 04:14:14 am »
+1

Curses are handed out in turn order, so for B's Black Cat it would be A, then C then D. Then it is again B's turn to play Reactions (maybe they had more than 1 Black Cat, maybe they draw one from the first). When C plays their Black Cat, Curses go to A, then B then D.

Yes, Wayfarer takes into account gains by all players, so handing out Curses/Ruins drop the cost to $0 (until the next gain)

Yes, I also think it is the first Reaction-Attack card.

This can become tricky in that you may have to be strict about reaction order here (not like several people flashing Moats simultaneously). It's even worse: If B doesn't have a Black Cat but C reacts with a Black Cat, then when B gets a Curse B can react with a Sheepdog and draw a Black Cat. But then it's too late to react with that cat!

Edit: Not true, see comment!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 05:55:07 am by pst »
Logged

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2020, 04:18:01 am »
0

Oh, man, imagine a game where you buy the last Province.  You think you're gonna win, but then, what's this?  Your opponent happened to have 2 Black Cats in their hand.  Now you just gained two Curses, and lost!
Logged
They/them

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (。 ω 。`)
  • Respect: +12279
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2020, 04:34:18 am »
+32

Some of the Renaissance previews were pretty

but I think that these Menagerie previews are
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's CC-licensed albums for free

silverspawn

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4993
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +2666
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2020, 04:41:23 am »
+5

Oh, man, imagine a game where you buy the last Province.  You think you're gonna win, but then, what's this?  Your opponent happened to have 2 Black Cats in their hand.  Now you just gained two Curses, and lost!
Twist: you had a sheepdog in hand which triggered upon gaining curses, thus drawing your vampire by which you gain a duchy and gain +3VP.
Logged

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3014
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +4250
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2020, 04:43:38 am »
+2

Oh, man, imagine a game where you buy the last Province.  You think you're gonna win, but then, what's this?  Your opponent happened to have 2 Black Cats in their hand.  Now you just gained two Curses, and lost!
I actually had a similar experience before Menagerie where I could react to my opponent gaining the last Province with Fool's Gold for +5 VP through Keep.
Logged
The quiet comprehending of the ending of it all

mxdata

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 791
  • Respect: +810
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2020, 05:18:44 am »
0

How does Wayfarer work with Noble Brigand?  If you gained both a Silver and a Gold from the trash with Noble Brigand, which one counts as "the last card gained"?  Do you get to choose the order you gain the Treasures?
Logged
They/them

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2020, 05:24:02 am »
+2

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly: suppose that you've played three Actions, so that Peddler costs $2 (and assuming no other price reduction).  You buy a Peddler, then a Wayfarer.  The Wayfarer costs what you paid for the Peddler, i.e., $2, correct?

Suppose that you were then able to play another Action, via the Toil event say, so that it would now cost $0 to buy a Peddler.  Is Wayfarer still $2, or is it now $0, the cost of Peddler at the time you're buying the Wayfarer?

1) Correct.
2) Wayfarer now costs $0 (assuming the Action you played didn't cause a gain)

A similar effect to 2) would be if you last gained a Governor, and then buy Ferry put the -$2 cost token on the Governor pile. All Wayfarer's now cost $3.
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2020, 05:50:08 am »
+2

Curses are handed out in turn order, so for B's Black Cat it would be A, then C then D. Then it is again B's turn to play Reactions (maybe they had more than 1 Black Cat, maybe they draw one from the first). When C plays their Black Cat, Curses go to A, then B then D.

This can become tricky in that you may have to be strict about reaction order here (not like several people flashing Moats simultaneously). It's even worse: If B doesn't have a Black Cat but C reacts with a Black Cat, then when B gets a Curse B can react with a Sheepdog and draw a Black Cat. But then it's too late to react with that cat!

That's no longer true. Look at this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19930.0 (there is an even older thread where this originated that I can't find at the moment).

So once C's Black cat is handled, including all triggeres, then B has now a Black Cat in hand. The triggered effects for A gaining a Province aren't over, so A is asked again (probably has nothing), then B is asked, and they now have something they can play, so they can do it.

Only once every player from A to D has 'passed' in succession to do something on A gaining a Province, triggers for that event are over.
Logged

pubby

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
  • Respect: +984
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 05:51:12 am »
+1

Does black cat interact with possession?
Logged

Ingix

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Shuffle iT Username: Ingix
  • Respect: +320
    • View Profile
Re: Menagerie Previews 5: More Cards
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 05:58:08 am »
0

How does Wayfarer work with Noble Brigand?  If you gained both a Silver and a Gold from the trash with Noble Brigand, which one counts as "the last card gained"?  Do you get to choose the order you gain the Treasures?

Usually gained cards have to be gained in some order, as they can't physicllay the top card in your discard pile. I think you get to choose the order (which I don't think is implemented online).
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All
 

Page created in 0.086 seconds with 20 queries.