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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events  (Read 55062 times)

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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #125 on: March 08, 2020, 01:23:11 pm »
0

Way of the turtle has some interesting combos.

Lining up your treasure maps is now gauranteed. Also, this is another way for you to gain an imp from your tormentor and not end your action phase.

Not quite guaranteed.  If you Turtle one map away, you can only use it if you draw the second map with your initial 5-card hand, since the Turtled card can only be used at the start of your turn.  If you draw the second map during your turn (unless, of course, it's with a start-of-turn draw like a Den of Sin or a Turtled draw that you resolved first), you're out of luck.  And note that it wouldn't work to Turtle the second map either, because it says to trash a second map from your hand, and cards that are set aside are not in your hand

No, if you didn't have your second treasure map in your initial 5-card hand, you would just Turtle the first Treasure Map again. And repeat until it does line up. Yes, if you draw the second Treasure Map at some point during your turn, you've missed it for that shuffle. But if you are drawing a lot each turn anyway; then you wouldn't use Turtle on Treasure Map to start with.

Okay, that's a good point.  You'd almost certainly hit it after a couple of reshuffles.  Still, it's not completely guaranteed, since you could still miss it on each reshuffle

.... Although I just realized that Cobbler and a Turtled Treasure Map would be an absolute guarantee, since Cobbler gains a card costing up to $4 (which Treasure Map is) to your hand at the start of your turn!  Since you get to choose the order of start-of-turn effects, choose Cobbler first, gain that second Treasure Map, then play your Turtled Map!

It's impossible to miss a treasure map on the reshuffle; you still get the card.

Turn 1 and 2 buy silver and tm
Turn 3 and 4 buy tm and pass
By turn 5 you automatically have started turtling your tm. Now it's just a matter of when you draw your 2nd tm. guaranteed turn 5-7.

Good point!  You could also buy non-drawing Action cards (or buy them and just not use them) until you've activated TM
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Reefersleep

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #126 on: March 08, 2020, 04:29:37 pm »
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Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?

Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."

This ruling seems to detract from the power of Enchantress much more than the other ruling (the Enchantress effect wins, Way or not) would detract from the power of Ways, making Enchantress a less interesting card. Which I think is unfortunate! Is there some hidden reasoning behind this ruling that I'm not seeing?
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #127 on: March 08, 2020, 04:40:49 pm »
0

Can you use a Way when playing a card affected by Enchantress?

Yes, Donald X. answered on Discord: "Enchantress is a lot like a Way. The main thing is that you can beat Enchantress by doing the Way instead."

This ruling seems to detract from the power of Enchantress much more than the other ruling (the Enchantress effect wins, Way or not) would detract from the power of Ways, making Enchantress a less interesting card. Which I think is unfortunate! Is there some hidden reasoning behind this ruling that I'm not seeing?

Just the normal principle that when two or more things happen at the same time you can choose the order.  So, Enchantress is effectively a forced Way.  Both Ways and Enchantress say "ignore the normal text and replace it with ____________"

If you have Enchantress and a particular Way both trying to change a card, you can choose the order, either:
  • Enchantress changes card
  • Way changes card

or

  • Way changes card
  • Enchantress changes card

So, whichever is done second will erase what the first one did.  Obviously choosing the second option would be pointless, though, since it would be the same effect as if you just didn't use the Way at all.  But since there's a general rule that you can choose the order, you can choose the option that nullifies Enchantress.  You'd need a special rule that says "A Way cannot work on an Enchanted card" to prevent that from happening, and it seems a bit silly to create a rule that references just one specific card that's not even in the same expansion
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #128 on: March 08, 2020, 05:46:47 pm »
+1

Can you play Sheepdog as a Way during your buy phase when you gain?

I didn't get the option to play it as Way of the Mole.

Game #36702705 turn 17

Yes you can. You should have gotten the option to use the Way with Sheepdog.

Did you use the Sheepdog card in your hand to react (then you should have clicked on the Way button on the card to get use the Way). If you clicked on the normal button that said "Sheepdog", then you could have clicked on the Way first, then that button, but we forgot to tell anybody that that worked, so that's our fault. For the release probably this will be changed to always ask if you use that normal button.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #129 on: March 08, 2020, 09:20:18 pm »
0

So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom.  Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used.  Or at least almost every kingdom.  Technically it could be possible to have a kingdom with no +cards or +coins, or cards with +cards and +coin in equal numbers, where Chameleon would be useless, but that's rather unlikely

I'm guessing that the remaining Ways will be the same.  There won't be, for example, a Necromancer-like Way that would require some trashing to be worthwhile, unless it came with trashing itself, and if there's any Way that involves gaining from the trash, it would have to be something like Lurker that also allows you trash from the Supply, or like Rogue that gives you a trashing attack

I wonder if there'll be any Ways that will be a sort of self-referential Courtier, like, "for every type this card has, choose one:"
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #130 on: March 08, 2020, 09:27:42 pm »
+2

Chameleon + Catacombs is kinda funny - since the first half isn't written as a +Cards, it would be unaffected by Chameleon, but the second part is written as +Cards.  So, with Chameleon, it becomes "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Choose one: Put them into your hand; or discard them and +$3"  So, basically you either take the top three cards or you get $3.  But of course, you have to decide whether to use the Way before you even know whether you'll choose the affected option
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #131 on: March 08, 2020, 09:41:22 pm »
0

So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom.  Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used.  Or at least almost every kingdom.  Technically it could be possible to have a kingdom with no +cards or +coins, or cards with +cards and +coin in equal numbers, where Chameleon would be useless, but that's rather unlikely

I'm guessing that the remaining Ways will be the same.  There won't be, for example, a Necromancer-like Way that would require some trashing to be worthwhile, unless it came with trashing itself, and if there's any Way that involves gaining from the trash, it would have to be something like Lurker that also allows you trash from the Supply, or like Rogue that gives you a trashing attack

I wonder if there'll be any Ways that will be a sort of self-referential Courtier, like, "for every type this card has, choose one:"

Tomb is a Landmark that only works with trashing, so I don't see why there couldn't be a Way that involved trashing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #132 on: March 08, 2020, 11:14:17 pm »
+3

So far, all the Ways we've seen are things that can be used in every kingdom.  Their usefulness can vary based on what's in the kingdom, but they can be used. 

Edge case: You can have a Kingdom with no action cards.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2020, 05:09:52 pm »
+1

I looked and couldn't find that this had been asked yet (and playing with previews are over, so can't test online):

If I Throne Room A Duration card, and choose Way of the Turtle for one of the plays, such that the Duration card gets set aside, does the Throne Room get discarded or stay in play? By the current Throne Room rules, it would get discarded (since the Duration is no longer in play), but I *think* this might be the first case where a TR'ed Duration card can be set aside.

Seems like it might be nice if it stayed out for tracking purposes.

I'm sure this will covered in the rulebook, but I hope it's ok that I'm asking now.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:29:13 pm by scolapasta »
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2020, 05:15:34 pm »
+2

The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2020, 05:45:17 pm »
0

Hmm, so...

You can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle once. This gives you +1 Card and +1 Action now, then beginning of next turn you get +$1 and play Caravan Guard again (causing it to stay in play), getting +1 Card and +1 Action. Then beginning of next turn you get +$1.

Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
Nope, you cant.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:55:59 pm by Jeebus »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #136 on: March 11, 2020, 05:47:51 pm »
0

The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.

If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?

If the later, then it might make sense to keep the TR out for tracking purposes - in this case to remember that at the start of your next turn you're getting the duration effect from the first play, and the this-turn effect when you play it
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markus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #137 on: March 11, 2020, 05:51:32 pm »
+4

Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
If you choose Turtle both times, setting aside will fail the second time. So next turn you will only play it once.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2020, 05:55:31 pm »
+1

Or you can play TR + Caravan Guard and choose Turtle both times. This gives you nothing now. Next turn you play Caravan Guard twice (causing it to stay in play), getting +2 Cards and +2 Actions. Then beginning of next turn you get +$2. (This is like Ghost hitting Caravan Guard.)
If you choose Turtle both times, setting aside will fail the second time. So next turn you will only play it once.

Ah, right, "if you did". I should have checked the card.

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2020, 06:00:12 pm »
+1

If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?

If the later, then it might make sense to keep the TR out for tracking purposes - in this case to remember that at the start of your next turn you're getting the duration effect from the first play, and the this-turn effect when you play it

When you play a card it doesn't matter where it is (except if it tries to move itself). And if it sets up a later ability it doesn't matter what happens to it (except if it tries to move itself). It will happen like a wrote above.

The rule for TR is that it stays in play as long as the Duration. We could imagine other rules, and indeed the rules used to be different, but it get super complicated quickly.

Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #140 on: March 12, 2020, 04:46:09 am »
+1

The Throne Room gets discarded, for the reason you stated. Throne Room stay-out rules weren't made under the assumption that Durations could remove themselves from play, in fact that's the opposite of what Durations conceptually stand for.

If you did choose the Way of the Turtle for your second play, then would the fact that the card is now set aside mean that you don't get the Duration effect on your next turn, since it's not in play, or do you still get the effect for the same reason that, for example, a self-trashing card can still be played twice by TR?

Jeebus answered already that you get the Duration effect next turn. To support the argument, for the rules it doesn't even make a difference if you use Turtle on the first or second play. You can turtle the card on first play, then play it normally on second play.

Strategically, though, every time the Duration card will reveal some hidden information (like drawing a card), players will play it normally on first play, in case the new information changes their plan. Since double Turtling doesn't "work" (see markus answer), players can always(*) afford to play it without Way on first play.

(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then  Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 04:52:57 am by Ingix »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2020, 10:43:05 am »
0

(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then  Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.

Since 2nd-edition Throne Room is optional, you don't really need to double-turtle, right?

scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2020, 10:48:51 am »
+1

(*) Edge cases exist where you may want to double Turtle a Throned card. Say your hand is Throne Room, Treasure Hunter, Gold, Gold, Copper. You want to buy that King's Court, want to exchange the Treasure Hunter before a reshuffle, but also are under a Haunted Woods, and you don't want to topdeck the Throne Room. Your opponent gained lots of cards last turn, and you don't want the Silvers. Then  Throne the Treasure Hunter and Turtle it both times. Well, maybe not the best example but you get the picture.

Since 2nd-edition Throne Room is optional, you don't really need to double-turtle, right?

The option is playing a card at all; if you do, you have to play it twice.

On the other hand, if you Turtle (single or double) the Treasure Hunter, you wouldn't be able to exchange it that turn. (maybe in the above scenario the reshuffle is still a turn away)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 11:29:55 am by scolapasta »
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2020, 06:25:21 pm »
0

On the other hand, if you Turtle (single or double) the Treasure Hunter, you wouldn't be able to exchange it that turn. (maybe in the above scenario the reshuffle is still a turn away)
You are right, that totally kills my example (other Ways keep the card in play, but not the Turtle).
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #144 on: March 17, 2020, 01:19:50 pm »
+4

Oh no! Am I the only person who's taken this long to re-read "a turtle that can hold its breath for longer than anyone can stay interested" in the set's flavour text and realise what it's talking about? (-8
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FishingVillage

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2020, 04:58:01 pm »
0

Turtle Way is awesome :o basically makes it possible to tavern any action card for as long as needed. It's a great perk of tavern cards like Ratcatcher and Transmogrify; once one is done with them, they can be left on the tavern and won't clutter up one's deck anymore.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2020, 12:47:08 am »
+2

I think I have this right?

Example: +Card token on Moat pile, Way of the Ox on board.

I play a Moat as my last action for some reason.
    Token first gives me +1 Card, before I do anything. I draw a Smithy.
Now I choose whether to use Moat's effect or Way of the Ox's effect. I want to play the Smithy more than the Moat, and I'd like to not draw anything dead, so I can choose Way of the Ox, even though I already drew a card from the token.

So in this case, Moat can either be a vanilla Village (+1 Card, +2 Actions) or a Smithy (+1 Card, +2 Cards), but I get to choose which one I like best after I draw one card from the token. It seems like Pathfinding, while already very powerful, is even more powerful when combined with Ways.

All correct. With Pathfinding you get even more info about your hand before you make the decision for a Way or not.

Note that opponnts reacting to your attacks with Moats or similar effects also happens before the Way decision. So if your Coven is Moated, Turtle it aways for next turn if you don't need the +1 Action and +$2 right now.

Sure, but then your opponent could just Turtle their Moat away too. Moat effectively becomes a Champion (well, the "when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you" part) if you just Turtle it every turn.

That wouldn't work, though.  You have to reveal moat from your hand to block an attack.  If you've set it aside with Turtle, it can't block attacks

You're absolutely right, of course. I didn't realize it doesn't come back into your hand until next turn.

OK, so clearly I was ahead of my time with this post.

With Way of the Frog, Moat effectively becomes (the defensive part of) Champion, though you sacrifice a card per turn to do that.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 01:07:43 am by scolapasta »
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2020, 07:01:42 am »
+2

OK, so clearly I was ahead of my time with this post.

With Way of the Frog, Moat effectively becomes (the defensive part of) Champion, though you sacrifice a card per turn to do that.

Note that you can now be attacked on your own turn (Black Cat, for example), so it isn't a complete protection. But I guess it's good against the usual Junkers that people often consider getting a Moat for.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2020, 09:45:23 am »
0

Note that you can now be attacked on your own turn (Black Cat, for example), so it isn't a complete protection. But I guess it's good against the usual Junkers that people often consider getting a Moat for.

It's just Black Cat, isn't it?

crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 4: Ways and Events
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2020, 10:18:07 am »
+3

Caravan Guard -> Way of the Mouse -> an Attack?
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