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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile  (Read 17573 times)

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crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2020, 03:12:20 pm »
0

Random thought: by allowing you to set aside an unlimited number of cards, does Bounty Hunter enable some kind of golden Gardens deck?
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pubby

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2020, 03:20:48 pm »
0

Random thought: by allowing you to set aside an unlimited number of cards, does Bounty Hunter enable some kind of golden Gardens deck?
Yeah I can see it, but like Bishop, I think the strategy scores even better when used in an engine. Otherwise I doubt you can set aside more than two cards per turn.
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2020, 03:22:00 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.

Wouldn't you rather either double up on Covens or double up on Witches than go Coven+Witch and risk Witch drawing Coven dead?

My thinking is:
If the Kingdom isn't short on +Actions, we forgo the Covens altogether in favor of Witches.
If the Kingdom is short on +Actions, we forgo the Witches altogether in favor of Covens.
The more relevant question is whether there is trashing. If there is, you go for Covens (unless it's really weak/non-Curse trashing).
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Chappy7

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2020, 03:40:37 pm »
+1

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2020, 03:43:53 pm »
+4

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changeling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 03:50:15 pm by GendoIkari »
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Awaclus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2020, 03:46:46 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2020, 03:50:18 pm »
0

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?
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Awaclus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2020, 03:52:49 pm »
+1

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.

It's a neat trick, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice. You're doing both players a favor by saving Stockpile supply, but your opponent benefits from it first, and you're slightly hurting yourself by getting Changelings instead of Stockpiles, unless you actually prefer the Changeling.
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ben_king

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2020, 04:56:46 pm »
+3

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2020, 05:18:17 pm »
0

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.

It's a neat trick, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice. You're doing both players a favor by saving Stockpile supply, but your opponent benefits from it first, and you're slightly hurting yourself by getting Changelings instead of Stockpiles, unless you actually prefer the Changeling.

I was certainly assuming a situation where you preferred Changeling.
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2020, 05:27:09 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.

Well, you don't literally need to win by that point, just get far enough ahead that you're still ahead 10 curses enter the equation.
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Awaclus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2020, 05:56:45 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.

Well, you don't literally need to win by that point, just get far enough ahead that you're still ahead 10 curses enter the equation.

It's hard to be 10 labs ahead just because your opponent spent a few buys on non-terminal Silvers.
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MattTV

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2020, 07:30:30 pm »
+2

Bounty hunter: I like bounty hunter in that you can thin out your deck for initial gold and chain other actions. The major drawback I sense it will have is that once you have the bounties, it will just be a non-terminal pseudo-trasher. I feel like it would be worse to have late game cause more often it could just be a dead card, but certainly strong in early to mid game. I like the balance.

Stockpile: for 3$ I like the potential it has of racking up mini-contrabands essentially, Though I feel I would prefer the 2 labs from experiment b/c there's no guarantee of using each stockpile a 2nd time. especially when 3 or so other people are buying them as well.

Coven: I really like coven in that the curses you give are immune to trashing early game and then dump them on your opponent mid game at the worst possible time when they're trying to keep their engine consistent. I think this is going to be one of the strongest attacks next to Mountebank at least. It feels fresh too.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2020, 08:21:44 pm »
+1

Played a game with Bounty Hunter and Jack of All Trades. Good synergy there as it made good use of the draw to X functionality of Jack. If Copper wasn't available, I could pick up bounties on Silver then play Jack to take that Silver out of exile - BH only acted as a copper, but that's 2 more cards for Jack to draw.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2020, 09:10:44 pm »
+1

Coven: I really like coven in that the curses you give are immune to trashing early game and then dump them on your opponent mid game at the worst possible time when they're trying to keep their engine consistent. I think this is going to be one of the strongest attacks next to Mountebank at least. It feels fresh too.

Although, it would also be conditional.  In a kingdom with no trashing, regular cursers would be stronger, since the curses junk up your opponents' hands.  But definitely in a kingdom with strong trashing it's a lot stronger.  I wonder if it might actually make it strategically worthwhile sometimes to buy a curse just to trigger the discard in order to trash them
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2020, 09:29:35 pm »
0

I hope one of the Projects for this set is something like:

BANISHER
When you discard a card (other than during clean-up), you may exile it.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2020, 09:36:25 pm »
+1

I hope one of the Projects for this set is something like:

BANISHER
When you discard a card (other than during clean-up), you may exile it.

There's no Projects.  There's 20 Events and 20 Ways, whatever those turn out to be
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trivialknot

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2020, 11:07:14 pm »
+1

Exile is an excellent mechanic, because you can do really simple things with it, with interesting results.  Stockpile is a great example.  A card that exiles itself on play, that's all it is, but people on Discord have been arguing about how good it is all day.

I can imagine a workshop variant that exiles cards from the supply.  A card that blindly exiles cards from the top of your deck.  An exile-for-benefit card.  An attack that exiles opponent's good cards.  I'm looking forward to seeing what else the set has.

Bounty Hunter - Why is this so strong?  People initially underestimated Priest because they didn't understand how it trashes cards and helps you hit $5 at the same time, much like another power card, Masquerade.  But bounty hunter gives more money, it is nonterminal, and it thins provinces without losing VP?  Would it really have been too weak if it only had two of those three?  I wouldn't be surprised if Bounty Hunter makes you green much earlier in most games.

Stockpile - Definitely one of the harder cards to wrap your head around.  People on Discord seem to think it's good to pile these, but I'm not so sure.  Surely sometimes you can do better than having a bunch of gold in your deck.  The thing I like about this card, is imagining what happens when it's the only +Buy.  You have to buy several of these over multiple shuffles before you net much +buy out of them.  And if they pile out, that's it for your buys.

Coven - I think this is usually easier to deal with curses one at a time.  It gives you time to get control of your deck, and when the curses arrive you're ready for them.  But I really like this card.  It makes you rethink what kind of trashers are good or bad at responding to it.  And it gives your games a narrative arc.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2020, 02:57:47 pm »
+3

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.

Although in Renaissance it was the "Cell" mat. I still sort of wish Menagerie had a crime theme instead.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2020, 03:05:57 pm »
+1

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.

Although in Renaissance it was the "Cell" mat. I still sort of wish Menagerie had a crime theme instead.

Isn't that a similar concept, though?  Exile and prison are both forms of punishment that remove an individual from the larger society
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2020, 03:09:37 pm »
+1

With the animal theme, maybe Migration mat could have worked.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2020, 03:12:49 pm »
+2

It's too bad there's no Victory cards in Menagerie, because it seems like you could do something with the Exile mat and an alt-VP card.  Like, "1 VP per X number of cards on your exile mat", probably an Action-Victory card, since you'd want to ensure that there's at least one way to Exile cards.  Then again, such a card would probably make Bounty Hunter way overpowered, since you could quickly rack up that card's value by sending cards into Exile, and even Exile that card itself!

Or, a kind of reverse Distant Lands, "Worth 0 VP if on your Exile mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth X VP)"
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2020, 03:14:52 pm »
0

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2020, 05:03:19 pm »
0

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
That would be really cool in my opinion.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2020, 05:12:20 pm »
+1

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
That would be really cool in my opinion.

The problem with this is that it there are only 8 cards (and 6 landscapes) that use the Exile mechanic. And we've already seen that at least 2 of those don't exile just any arbitrary card. So in most Kingdoms a card, you'd be paying extra for this a useless feature. One way to do this would be either as a spilt pile or with a non supply pile, but we already know that Menagerie doesn't have any of those (besides Horses).

Trashing, of course, is different in that it's a mechanic that is in every expansion, so most kingdoms have a way to trash something.

(This kind of card is better suited as a fan variant, since you can just establish any arbitrary set up rules you want)
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