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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile  (Read 17582 times)

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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2020, 10:30:04 am »
+2

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

A general way to obtain cards without gaining them is exchanging. You normally never gain the non-Kingdom members of the Treveller lines, for example (can't topdeck them with Watchtower, for example). The same is true for Bat.

Some one-off's exist: the card set aside for Inheritance, a Fortress after you trashed it and cards returning from the "set-aside trash" due to a Possession turn ending.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2020, 10:32:04 am »
+2

So now we've seen "they discard their". I wonder if "hand three times" is going to be a King's Court variant that exiles the card it plays, and how much that would cost?

Edit: i just realized, now we have another way to get those pesky Fortresses out of our decks, in addition to Masquerade, Ambassador, Island, and anything else I'm missing.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 10:42:51 am by J Reggie »
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faust

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2020, 10:36:07 am »
0

On what turn do you expect to gain province and collide it with Bount Hunter?
About the same turn on which I Exiled my last starting card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2020, 11:03:48 am »
0

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

There's several other ways:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2020, 11:11:18 am »
+3

Exile from the supply... yet another new way to get a card without gaining it!

I'm wondering if there's gonna be any other cards with that mechanism, something like "Exile a card costing up to $X from the Supply".  Probably with a "non-Victory" in there

Hmmm .... also, what if the "$1 less per" is a card that references the Exile mats?  Like, a Peddler-like cost clause, "this card costs $1 less per copy you have in Exile"
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2020, 11:16:57 am »
+1

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

There's several other ways:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116

Time to update to a high prior of always missing several edge cases when it comes to "can you do x" in dominion
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2020, 11:19:25 am »
+2

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.


Yeah it's almost a sure thing that Silver/X is basically never the right opening if Stockpile/X is available.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2020, 11:40:01 am »
0

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2020, 12:01:55 pm »
+3

As with Spoils, Counterfeit + Stockpile would be pretty useful, since the Stockpile would go the Exile mat after its first play, causing Counterfeit to lose track of it, so that you'd get $6 and +2 Buys
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2020, 12:44:16 pm »
0

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven

Yeah, the difference between the game ending before the 11th play of Coven and not probably isn't that much, because the game will probably be pretty close to over after the 11th is played; the Curses in your deck won't have time to matter much. Granted, even a single re-shuffle after that happens could be pretty bad.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2020, 12:45:10 pm »
+1

As with Spoils, Counterfeit + Stockpile would be pretty useful, since the Stockpile would go the Exile mat after its first play, causing Counterfeit to lose track of it, so that you'd get $6 and +2 Buys

and 3 buys technically. Yeah that sounds super strong.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2020, 12:49:04 pm »
+2

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2020, 12:54:14 pm »
0

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.
It's particulary strong against Lord Rat as there's no pressure on the pile!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2020, 01:05:09 pm »
+2

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven

Yeah, the difference between the game ending before the 11th play of Coven and not probably isn't that much, because the game will probably be pretty close to over after the 11th is played; the Curses in your deck won't have time to matter much. Granted, even a single re-shuffle after that happens could be pretty bad.
Also if you see your opponent ignoring Coven, you can just get a second one; it is nonterminal after all.
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segura

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2020, 01:05:50 pm »
0

I wonder whether there will be a quasi-trashing Attack (or whether it was tested) that does not trash cards but exiles them. My hunch is that it would be a bit too strong, but it could be a thing.
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2020, 01:07:47 pm »
+1

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2020, 01:09:25 pm »
+4

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2020, 01:15:40 pm »
+1

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2020, 01:15:51 pm »
0

I played two games with Coven this morning, and I think Coven is most similar to plunder -

Coven: action, +$2, opponent -1 VP if there are curses available, completely junk opponent's deck if the game goes longer than usual (longer than double jack baseline, if only 1 person plays Coven)
Plunder: treasure, +$2, +1VP

If the game is shorter, Plunder is better, if Multi-player/long games, Coven is better.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 01:18:55 pm by Jupaoqq »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2020, 01:57:02 pm »
+1

Coven is fun to me in that it seems to kinda mitigates its own drawbacks. At $5 for a non-terminal Silver, its downside over other $5 cursers (that the curses may miss reshuffles) is mitigated by it being a non-terminal Silver and therefore quicker to empty the pile and trigger the release. And then once that's done, it seems like it'll have one of the least nasty burnouts of all of the $5 cursers. Although even with its speed-up, those first few Curses will still miss some early reshuffles, which will help your opponent's tempo quite a bit.

Also, if the Curse pile runs out, and you choose to never play your Covens again, your opponent is unable to ever trash those Curses. In a Kingdom with good trashing (which is the only scenario in which this would matter anyway), you can get rid of your dead Covens, but your opponent is stuck with the negative VP. With that in mind, it'll be interesting to see if a game of chicken ever arises over how many Curses a player is willing to take before wasting a buy/gain on a Curse.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2020, 02:08:34 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

My first impressions are that Coven will be more skippable than most Cursers, but you still want it most of the time. You probably buy 2 copies ASAP and then build draw around it.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2020, 02:12:49 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.

Wouldn't you rather either double up on Covens or double up on Witches than go Coven+Witch and risk Witch drawing Coven dead?

My thinking is:
If the Kingdom isn't short on +Actions, we forgo the Covens altogether in favor of Witches.
If the Kingdom is short on +Actions, we forgo the Witches altogether in favor of Covens.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2020, 02:57:18 pm »
+1

Bounty Hunter looks like the closest to Menagerie (the card) card we've seen so far from Menagerie, what with the caring about cards that aren't copies! Is the choice of the word 'bounty' a reference to Cornucopia or is that just a perfect coincidence?

Is there any significance in it saying 'if you don't have a copy' instead of 'if you have no cards with the same name as it', as I'd imagine it probably would have said if the card had been in Cornucopia?
The word "Bounty" there is just a coincidence.

As usual it just got the best wording I could give it.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2020, 03:02:10 pm »
0

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

That makes sense!  In practice, I doubt you'd want to retrieve other copies of a card you're exiling - if it's a card you want in your deck, why would you be exiling it in the first place, and if you don't want it in your deck, why would you be discarding them?  But it would make sense to avoid any rules questions about that possibility

Or maybe there's something like Lurker that works with the Exile mat, something like "Discard a card from your Exile mat or Exile a card from the Supply"
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2020, 03:09:01 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

My first impressions are that Coven will be more skippable than most Cursers, but you still want it most of the time. You probably buy 2 copies ASAP and then build draw around it.

Non-terminal silver is a lot better than curse, and it doesn't even have to be bought, but merely gained. It comes with all those action density or disappearing money synergies too. You have to be certain you can win the province split against the threat of -10 VP, and even then the other player only needs a duchy to surpass a 5/3 province deficit.
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