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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile  (Read 17552 times)

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Donald X.

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Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« on: March 04, 2020, 03:01:02 am »
+28

Menagerie includes Exile mats, one per player. They're a place to put cards where they're still yours but not in your deck. The Exile mat has a built-in rule to let you get the cards off of it; check it out:



What that all means will vary a lot, depending on the card doing the exiling. Eight kingdom cards use Exiling, and six landscapes; here are some of those kingdom cards.



Bounty Hunter mainly stores cards that you probably don't want to draw anymore. If you didn't have one of whatever it is in Exile already, you get +$3, so early on it helps you spike $ amounts, and then it's either a way to at least get rid of more cards, or you can consider collecting a bounty on something you weren't exactly planning on parting with. And after that it can keep Provinces out of your deck, so I mean, what's not to like.

Stockpile has a different trick: it Exiles itself. You can just buy another one to get back the first one, and Exile them again, and buy another to get back those two, and so on. Until the pile runs out anyway.

Coven has yet another trick. It hands out Curses, but they don't just poison your deck immediately; they accumulate in Exile and then one day you dump them all into your deck at once. I will just tell you now, you better not be relying on Bounty Hunter to get rid of the Curses; you can keep collecting the bounty, but Coven will keep dumping them back into your deck.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2020, 03:23:34 am »
0

Interesting!  So, it's kinda similar to the Tavern mat, except with a different way of retrieving cards?  I'm wondering if any of the other cards have another way of retrieving cards from Exile, for example, an Action card that's something like "If there are any cards on your Exile mat, discard one"?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2020, 03:32:59 am »
+6

Hypothesis: cards with horses in their art will combo well with Horses.

Bounty Hunter: exile a horse*, get +$3; gain another horse and discard the exiled one; repeat.

* missing out on playing the horse here isn't terrible, since it's a one shot anyway.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 03:42:00 am by scolapasta »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2020, 03:35:16 am »
0

Coven's attack is rather interesting, especially since one player could get all the curses on their mat dumped on them before the others.  For example, if there are only two curses left in a 4-player game, and you play Coven, the first two players to your left will exile a curse, but then the third player will get all of the curses dumped on them right away.  But, I suspect in most cases, the others would get them soon enough so that it wouldn't usually make a particularly significant impact
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2020, 03:41:02 am »
0

Any particular reason there's not a special type for these cards, like how cards that use the Tavern mat in Adventures have the Reserve type?
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2020, 03:44:14 am »
+2

Any particular reason there's not a special type for these cards, like how cards that use the Tavern mat in Adventures have the Reserve type?
You mean for Stockpile? Miser isn't a Reserve card.

There are reasons to use types: to tie rules to the type; to refer to the type on a card; to give the cards a color so they draw your attention. These reasons didn't exist here so they don't have a special type.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 03:47:31 am »
+1

Bounty Hunter would be great for getting victory cards out of your deck!  Similar to Island, but without the VP that Island has.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2020, 04:03:50 am »
+1

Yes, that's the way to use them once you are greening (and with the initial Estates/Shelters as well).
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2020, 04:15:15 am »
+4

Yes, that's the way to use them once you are greening (and with the initial Estates/Shelters as well).

I just realized that would mean that Bounty Hunter would work really well with Shelters - you'd be able to get the bounty for each shelter, while in an Estates game, you'd only get the bounty for the first Estate you Exile.  Castles would work well too for the same reason
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2020, 04:55:13 am »
+3

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Bounty Hunter seems a bit overpowered to me honestly. Compared to Moneylender, it's nonterminal, can get rid of Estates (while keeping the VP) and while you don't get the cash for subsequent Coppers, that is more than made up for by the fact that you can remove Provinces from your deck later on. And don't even get me started on Shelters/Heirlooms. The card would still be very strong without the +action, so I don't really get why that's there.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 04:56:34 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2020, 05:02:31 am »
+2

I assume Exiling a Curse due to Coven doesn't count as gaining, so you couldn't trigger the Curses going into your deck earlier if you wanted to?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2020, 05:06:30 am »
+1

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2020, 05:16:13 am »
+3

I assume Exiling a Curse due to Coven doesn't count as gaining, so you couldn't trigger the Curses going into your deck earlier if you wanted to?
Exiling isn't gaining, and discarding from Exile isn't gaining (though it's discarding, triggering e.g. Tunnel).

You can get the Curses into your deck earlier by e.g. buying a Curse though.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2020, 06:05:15 am »
+6

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.
Well, there was Inheritance - the card you set aside with it is yours.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2020, 06:53:37 am »
0

Very clever mechanic. 
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2020, 07:36:52 am »
+26

Best preview yet!

BTW what do you call an island that is no longer an island?

An ex-isle.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2020, 08:07:11 am »
0

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Bounty Hunter seems a bit overpowered to me honestly. Compared to Moneylender, it's nonterminal, can get rid of Estates (while keeping the VP) and while you don't get the cash for subsequent Coppers, that is more than made up for by the fact that you can remove Provinces from your deck later on. And don't even get me started on Shelters/Heirlooms. The card would still be very strong without the +action, so I don't really get why that's there.

More than made up for? On what turn do you expect to gain province and collide it with Bount Hunter? Sure this means you can gain provinces earlier, but then the provinces are back into your deck as soon as you gain another one. Even if you keep gaining back the cards you exile with this to kick them off the mat, this still stacks poorly with itself, meaning you can't go nuts with these for a large part of the game. And the coppers and estates you set aside will come flooding back in case you ever have to gain estate or copper, even if your opponent is responsible for that. Spiking price points early is a key feature of the card, but not completely unseen for $4 or less with Skulk and now Stockpile.

It's a mighty fine card with the +1 action. It would be woefully underpowered without the +1 action. It's priced fine for what it does.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2020, 08:09:53 am »
+7

The Exile mat says "may" - the Coppers, Estates and Provinces don't have to come back to your deck if you don't want them to (which usually you don't).
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2020, 08:14:00 am »
+2

That, and not only can you exile provinces, you actually get +3$ for the first province you exile. You can even buy an early duchy for the extra 3$ next turn, if you expect to draw your deck.

The card seems super strong, but "overpowered" doesn't really apply. Cards can be super strong and fun or super strong and not fun.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2020, 08:27:14 am »
+3

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Bounty Hunter seems a bit overpowered to me honestly. Compared to Moneylender, it's nonterminal, can get rid of Estates (while keeping the VP) and while you don't get the cash for subsequent Coppers, that is more than made up for by the fact that you can remove Provinces from your deck later on. And don't even get me started on Shelters/Heirlooms. The card would still be very strong without the +action, so I don't really get why that's there.

More than made up for? On what turn do you expect to gain province and collide it with Bount Hunter? Sure this means you can gain provinces earlier, but then the provinces are back into your deck as soon as you gain another one. Even if you keep gaining back the cards you exile with this to kick them off the mat, this still stacks poorly with itself, meaning you can't go nuts with these for a large part of the game. And the coppers and estates you set aside will come flooding back in case you ever have to gain estate or copper, even if your opponent is responsible for that. Spiking price points early is a key feature of the card, but not completely unseen for $4 or less with Skulk and now Stockpile.

It's a mighty fine card with the +1 action. It would be woefully underpowered without the +1 action. It's priced fine for what it does.

Dang, I missed the "may" on the exile mat. Okay now I am really feeling the Bounty Hunter hype.

The Exile mat says "may" - the Coppers, Estates and Provinces don't have to come back to your deck if you don't want them to (which usually you don't).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 08:28:58 am by markusin »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2020, 08:31:50 am »
+12

Ooh, I just thought of a nice one: Bounty Hunter/Inheritance. Exile your Estates until you've bought Inheritance, then bring them all back.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2020, 09:41:46 am »
+1

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2020, 09:54:48 am »
+2

I like that this expansion is adding new things, but still keeping it relatively straightforward, like Renaissance did.  You can jump on your horse and take a quick ride, and then just put it back in the stable.  Or you can exile those delinquents to the “ex-isle” (love that one, pubby), and after they have been sufficiently humbled and disciplined, you can invite them back to your dominion to add some winning value.

I am looking forward to using Bounty Hunter on a kingdom with Fairgrounds and lots of stuff, like Ruins, that are great for variety, but a pain to have in your deck during play.

Thanks again, Donald. This has been a great week so far.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2020, 09:55:27 am »
+1

Bounty Hunter looks like the closest to Menagerie (the card) card we've seen so far from Menagerie, what with the caring about cards that aren't copies! Is the choice of the word 'bounty' a reference to Cornucopia or is that just a perfect coincidence?

Is there any significance in it saying 'if you don't have a copy' instead of 'if you have no cards with the same name as it', as I'd imagine it probably would have said if the card had been in Cornucopia?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2020, 10:06:02 am »
+3

Exile from the supply... yet another new way to get a card without gaining it!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2020, 10:30:04 am »
+2

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

A general way to obtain cards without gaining them is exchanging. You normally never gain the non-Kingdom members of the Treveller lines, for example (can't topdeck them with Watchtower, for example). The same is true for Bat.

Some one-off's exist: the card set aside for Inheritance, a Fortress after you trashed it and cards returning from the "set-aside trash" due to a Possession turn ending.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2020, 10:32:04 am »
+2

So now we've seen "they discard their". I wonder if "hand three times" is going to be a King's Court variant that exiles the card it plays, and how much that would cost?

Edit: i just realized, now we have another way to get those pesky Fortresses out of our decks, in addition to Masquerade, Ambassador, Island, and anything else I'm missing.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 10:42:51 am by J Reggie »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2020, 10:36:07 am »
0

On what turn do you expect to gain province and collide it with Bount Hunter?
About the same turn on which I Exiled my last starting card.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2020, 11:03:48 am »
0

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

There's several other ways:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2020, 11:11:18 am »
+3

Exile from the supply... yet another new way to get a card without gaining it!

I'm wondering if there's gonna be any other cards with that mechanism, something like "Exile a card costing up to $X from the Supply".  Probably with a "non-Victory" in there

Hmmm .... also, what if the "$1 less per" is a card that references the Exile mats?  Like, a Peddler-like cost clause, "this card costs $1 less per copy you have in Exile"
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2020, 11:16:57 am »
+1

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.

I was just writing something about how you can now obtain cards without gaining them when you PPE'd this ^

It was previously possible with masquerade, but somehow masquerade never shows up when I play *shrugs*. I don't think there's another way.

There's several other ways:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13116

Time to update to a high prior of always missing several edge cases when it comes to "can you do x" in dominion
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2020, 11:19:25 am »
+2

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.


Yeah it's almost a sure thing that Silver/X is basically never the right opening if Stockpile/X is available.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2020, 11:40:01 am »
0

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2020, 12:01:55 pm »
+3

As with Spoils, Counterfeit + Stockpile would be pretty useful, since the Stockpile would go the Exile mat after its first play, causing Counterfeit to lose track of it, so that you'd get $6 and +2 Buys
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2020, 12:44:16 pm »
0

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven

Yeah, the difference between the game ending before the 11th play of Coven and not probably isn't that much, because the game will probably be pretty close to over after the 11th is played; the Curses in your deck won't have time to matter much. Granted, even a single re-shuffle after that happens could be pretty bad.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2020, 12:45:10 pm »
+1

As with Spoils, Counterfeit + Stockpile would be pretty useful, since the Stockpile would go the Exile mat after its first play, causing Counterfeit to lose track of it, so that you'd get $6 and +2 Buys

and 3 buys technically. Yeah that sounds super strong.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2020, 12:49:04 pm »
+2

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2020, 12:54:14 pm »
0

After having played with the cards, I think stockpile is actually incredibly strong. It's like opening silver but better, with a buy, doesn't junk your deck, and you can turn it into payload later.
It's particulary strong against Lord Rat as there's no pressure on the pile!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2020, 01:05:09 pm »
+2

My immediate impression is that I'll be opening Bounty Hunter 99 times out of 100. When Renaissance came out I thought Priest was the ideal $4 cost opener, but Bounty Hunter seems even better than priest at least for the 1st and 2nd shuffles. I also really like the mini game that Coven seems to present. You can ignore it, but you're basically betting that your opponent can't play it 10 times before the game ends. I think this is one of the cooler mechanics to come out in recent Dominion expansions and I'm excited to see how else the Exile mat is used!

The Curses will still cost you points though, even if they never leave the Exile mat.  So, it would still be a bad idea to ignore your opponent's Coven

Yeah, the difference between the game ending before the 11th play of Coven and not probably isn't that much, because the game will probably be pretty close to over after the 11th is played; the Curses in your deck won't have time to matter much. Granted, even a single re-shuffle after that happens could be pretty bad.
Also if you see your opponent ignoring Coven, you can just get a second one; it is nonterminal after all.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2020, 01:05:50 pm »
0

I wonder whether there will be a quasi-trashing Attack (or whether it was tested) that does not trash cards but exiles them. My hunch is that it would be a bit too strong, but it could be a thing.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2020, 01:07:47 pm »
+1

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2020, 01:09:25 pm »
+4

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2020, 01:15:40 pm »
+1

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2020, 01:15:51 pm »
0

I played two games with Coven this morning, and I think Coven is most similar to plunder -

Coven: action, +$2, opponent -1 VP if there are curses available, completely junk opponent's deck if the game goes longer than usual (longer than double jack baseline, if only 1 person plays Coven)
Plunder: treasure, +$2, +1VP

If the game is shorter, Plunder is better, if Multi-player/long games, Coven is better.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 01:18:55 pm by Jupaoqq »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2020, 01:57:02 pm »
+1

Coven is fun to me in that it seems to kinda mitigates its own drawbacks. At $5 for a non-terminal Silver, its downside over other $5 cursers (that the curses may miss reshuffles) is mitigated by it being a non-terminal Silver and therefore quicker to empty the pile and trigger the release. And then once that's done, it seems like it'll have one of the least nasty burnouts of all of the $5 cursers. Although even with its speed-up, those first few Curses will still miss some early reshuffles, which will help your opponent's tempo quite a bit.

Also, if the Curse pile runs out, and you choose to never play your Covens again, your opponent is unable to ever trash those Curses. In a Kingdom with good trashing (which is the only scenario in which this would matter anyway), you can get rid of your dead Covens, but your opponent is stuck with the negative VP. With that in mind, it'll be interesting to see if a game of chicken ever arises over how many Curses a player is willing to take before wasting a buy/gain on a Curse.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2020, 02:08:34 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

My first impressions are that Coven will be more skippable than most Cursers, but you still want it most of the time. You probably buy 2 copies ASAP and then build draw around it.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2020, 02:12:49 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.

Wouldn't you rather either double up on Covens or double up on Witches than go Coven+Witch and risk Witch drawing Coven dead?

My thinking is:
If the Kingdom isn't short on +Actions, we forgo the Covens altogether in favor of Witches.
If the Kingdom is short on +Actions, we forgo the Witches altogether in favor of Covens.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2020, 02:57:18 pm »
+1

Bounty Hunter looks like the closest to Menagerie (the card) card we've seen so far from Menagerie, what with the caring about cards that aren't copies! Is the choice of the word 'bounty' a reference to Cornucopia or is that just a perfect coincidence?

Is there any significance in it saying 'if you don't have a copy' instead of 'if you have no cards with the same name as it', as I'd imagine it probably would have said if the card had been in Cornucopia?
The word "Bounty" there is just a coincidence.

As usual it just got the best wording I could give it.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2020, 03:02:10 pm »
0

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

That makes sense!  In practice, I doubt you'd want to retrieve other copies of a card you're exiling - if it's a card you want in your deck, why would you be exiling it in the first place, and if you don't want it in your deck, why would you be discarding them?  But it would make sense to avoid any rules questions about that possibility

Or maybe there's something like Lurker that works with the Exile mat, something like "Discard a card from your Exile mat or Exile a card from the Supply"
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2020, 03:09:01 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

My first impressions are that Coven will be more skippable than most Cursers, but you still want it most of the time. You probably buy 2 copies ASAP and then build draw around it.

Non-terminal silver is a lot better than curse, and it doesn't even have to be bought, but merely gained. It comes with all those action density or disappearing money synergies too. You have to be certain you can win the province split against the threat of -10 VP, and even then the other player only needs a duchy to surpass a 5/3 province deficit.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2020, 03:12:20 pm »
0

Random thought: by allowing you to set aside an unlimited number of cards, does Bounty Hunter enable some kind of golden Gardens deck?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2020, 03:20:48 pm »
0

Random thought: by allowing you to set aside an unlimited number of cards, does Bounty Hunter enable some kind of golden Gardens deck?
Yeah I can see it, but like Bishop, I think the strategy scores even better when used in an engine. Otherwise I doubt you can set aside more than two cards per turn.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2020, 03:22:00 pm »
+2

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.
Combines well with other Cursers though. A Coven+Witch is probably a lot better than Witch+Witch.

Wouldn't you rather either double up on Covens or double up on Witches than go Coven+Witch and risk Witch drawing Coven dead?

My thinking is:
If the Kingdom isn't short on +Actions, we forgo the Covens altogether in favor of Witches.
If the Kingdom is short on +Actions, we forgo the Witches altogether in favor of Covens.
The more relevant question is whether there is trashing. If there is, you go for Covens (unless it's really weak/non-Curse trashing).
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2020, 03:40:37 pm »
+1

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha. 
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2020, 03:43:53 pm »
+4

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changeling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 03:50:15 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2020, 03:46:46 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2020, 03:50:18 pm »
0

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2020, 03:52:49 pm »
+1

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.

It's a neat trick, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice. You're doing both players a favor by saving Stockpile supply, but your opponent benefits from it first, and you're slightly hurting yourself by getting Changelings instead of Stockpiles, unless you actually prefer the Changeling.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2020, 04:56:46 pm »
+3

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2020, 05:18:17 pm »
0

Seems like Changeling could be a very useful card with Exiling.

Can you explain why you think this? I'm not doubting you, my brain just isn't making the situation work in my head haha.

Well it lets you get stuff (like Stockpile) off of your Exile mat without having to get another one. Buy Stockpile, exchange it for a Changling. Return other Stockpiles from Exile. Though we don't know how many more things like Stockpile there will be where you have things on your Exile mat that you want to get back.

It's a neat trick, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice. You're doing both players a favor by saving Stockpile supply, but your opponent benefits from it first, and you're slightly hurting yourself by getting Changelings instead of Stockpiles, unless you actually prefer the Changeling.

I was certainly assuming a situation where you preferred Changeling.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2020, 05:27:09 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.

Well, you don't literally need to win by that point, just get far enough ahead that you're still ahead 10 curses enter the equation.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2020, 05:56:45 pm »
0

Nonetheless, I suspect ignoring it will be the correct play quite often. Coven is a silver for most of the game; if other 5$s are sufficiently strong you should win with them even on a clock and with -10VP.

I don't think you can win on that clock in most kingdoms.

If it was just -10 VP, you could win on that clock pretty often. See Defiled Shrine as a reference. The problem is that the -10 VP comes with 10 Curses - when that hits your clock will get much slower, so you need to be fast.

Yeah, silverspawn is suggesting that you win the game before the Curses hit, which I don't think is realistic most of the time.

Well, you don't literally need to win by that point, just get far enough ahead that you're still ahead 10 curses enter the equation.

It's hard to be 10 labs ahead just because your opponent spent a few buys on non-terminal Silvers.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2020, 07:30:30 pm »
+2

Bounty hunter: I like bounty hunter in that you can thin out your deck for initial gold and chain other actions. The major drawback I sense it will have is that once you have the bounties, it will just be a non-terminal pseudo-trasher. I feel like it would be worse to have late game cause more often it could just be a dead card, but certainly strong in early to mid game. I like the balance.

Stockpile: for 3$ I like the potential it has of racking up mini-contrabands essentially, Though I feel I would prefer the 2 labs from experiment b/c there's no guarantee of using each stockpile a 2nd time. especially when 3 or so other people are buying them as well.

Coven: I really like coven in that the curses you give are immune to trashing early game and then dump them on your opponent mid game at the worst possible time when they're trying to keep their engine consistent. I think this is going to be one of the strongest attacks next to Mountebank at least. It feels fresh too.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2020, 08:21:44 pm »
+1

Played a game with Bounty Hunter and Jack of All Trades. Good synergy there as it made good use of the draw to X functionality of Jack. If Copper wasn't available, I could pick up bounties on Silver then play Jack to take that Silver out of exile - BH only acted as a copper, but that's 2 more cards for Jack to draw.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2020, 09:10:44 pm »
+1

Coven: I really like coven in that the curses you give are immune to trashing early game and then dump them on your opponent mid game at the worst possible time when they're trying to keep their engine consistent. I think this is going to be one of the strongest attacks next to Mountebank at least. It feels fresh too.

Although, it would also be conditional.  In a kingdom with no trashing, regular cursers would be stronger, since the curses junk up your opponents' hands.  But definitely in a kingdom with strong trashing it's a lot stronger.  I wonder if it might actually make it strategically worthwhile sometimes to buy a curse just to trigger the discard in order to trash them
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2020, 09:29:35 pm »
0

I hope one of the Projects for this set is something like:

BANISHER
When you discard a card (other than during clean-up), you may exile it.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2020, 09:36:25 pm »
+1

I hope one of the Projects for this set is something like:

BANISHER
When you discard a card (other than during clean-up), you may exile it.

There's no Projects.  There's 20 Events and 20 Ways, whatever those turn out to be
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2020, 11:07:14 pm »
+1

Exile is an excellent mechanic, because you can do really simple things with it, with interesting results.  Stockpile is a great example.  A card that exiles itself on play, that's all it is, but people on Discord have been arguing about how good it is all day.

I can imagine a workshop variant that exiles cards from the supply.  A card that blindly exiles cards from the top of your deck.  An exile-for-benefit card.  An attack that exiles opponent's good cards.  I'm looking forward to seeing what else the set has.

Bounty Hunter - Why is this so strong?  People initially underestimated Priest because they didn't understand how it trashes cards and helps you hit $5 at the same time, much like another power card, Masquerade.  But bounty hunter gives more money, it is nonterminal, and it thins provinces without losing VP?  Would it really have been too weak if it only had two of those three?  I wouldn't be surprised if Bounty Hunter makes you green much earlier in most games.

Stockpile - Definitely one of the harder cards to wrap your head around.  People on Discord seem to think it's good to pile these, but I'm not so sure.  Surely sometimes you can do better than having a bunch of gold in your deck.  The thing I like about this card, is imagining what happens when it's the only +Buy.  You have to buy several of these over multiple shuffles before you net much +buy out of them.  And if they pile out, that's it for your buys.

Coven - I think this is usually easier to deal with curses one at a time.  It gives you time to get control of your deck, and when the curses arrive you're ready for them.  But I really like this card.  It makes you rethink what kind of trashers are good or bad at responding to it.  And it gives your games a narrative arc.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2020, 02:57:47 pm »
+3

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.

Although in Renaissance it was the "Cell" mat. I still sort of wish Menagerie had a crime theme instead.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2020, 03:05:57 pm »
+1

Is Exile the 4th mat that was going to be included in Renaissance other than Coffers, Villagers, and Buy tokens?

Yes, Donald X. has confirmed this on the discord.

Although in Renaissance it was the "Cell" mat. I still sort of wish Menagerie had a crime theme instead.

Isn't that a similar concept, though?  Exile and prison are both forms of punishment that remove an individual from the larger society
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2020, 03:09:37 pm »
+1

With the animal theme, maybe Migration mat could have worked.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2020, 03:12:49 pm »
+2

It's too bad there's no Victory cards in Menagerie, because it seems like you could do something with the Exile mat and an alt-VP card.  Like, "1 VP per X number of cards on your exile mat", probably an Action-Victory card, since you'd want to ensure that there's at least one way to Exile cards.  Then again, such a card would probably make Bounty Hunter way overpowered, since you could quickly rack up that card's value by sending cards into Exile, and even Exile that card itself!

Or, a kind of reverse Distant Lands, "Worth 0 VP if on your Exile mat at the end of the game (otherwise worth X VP)"
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2020, 03:14:52 pm »
0

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2020, 05:03:19 pm »
0

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
That would be really cool in my opinion.
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2020, 05:12:20 pm »
+1

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
That would be really cool in my opinion.

The problem with this is that it there are only 8 cards (and 6 landscapes) that use the Exile mechanic. And we've already seen that at least 2 of those don't exile just any arbitrary card. So in most Kingdoms a card, you'd be paying extra for this a useless feature. One way to do this would be either as a spilt pile or with a non supply pile, but we already know that Menagerie doesn't have any of those (besides Horses).

Trashing, of course, is different in that it's a mechanic that is in every expansion, so most kingdoms have a way to trash something.

(This kind of card is better suited as a fan variant, since you can just establish any arbitrary set up rules you want)
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2020, 05:16:40 pm »
0

I wonder if there might be a sort of Exile version of Fortress, like a card with a clause "When you Exile this, put it into your hand".  Call it Escape Artist maybe
That would be really cool in my opinion.

The problem with this is that it there are only 8 cards (and 6 landscapes) that use the Exile mechanic. And we've already seen that at least 2 of those don't exile just any arbitrary card. So in most Kingdoms a card, you'd be paying extra for this a useless feature. One way to do this would be either as a spilt pile or with a non supply pile, but we already know that Menagerie doesn't have any of those (besides Horses).

Trashing, of course, is different in that it's a mechanic that is in every expansion, so most kingdoms have a way to trash something.

(This kind of card is better suited as a fan variant, since you can just establish any arbitrary set up rules you want)

It would work well with Bounty Hunter.  You'd always get the $3 bonus from Bounty Hunter, since there'll never be a copy of that card on the Exile mat, and we don't know if there's any other "exile-for-benefit" cards
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2020, 05:22:10 pm »
0

Sure, I wasn't saying that it wouldn't work with any of the official Exile cards*, just that the odds of getting one of these combinations in a Kingdom are, imho, too low for an official card to have that feature.

* like you said Bounty Hunter + Fortress is +2 Actions, +$3 every time.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2020, 05:35:16 pm »
+1

Sure, I wasn't saying that it wouldn't work with any of the official Exile cards*, just that the odds of getting one of these combinations in a Kingdom are, imho, too low for an official card to have that feature.

* like you said Bounty Hunter + Fortress is +2 Actions, +$3 every time.

Yeah, that's a valid point.  Unless, like you suggested, it's a split pile, it wouldn't be useful in most mixed sets.  But a split pile with the top half letting you Exile a card for X benefit and the bottom half being this Exile-Fortress could probably work
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2020, 09:58:57 pm »
+1

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

And the answer was Gatekeeper! It triggers at the same time as Watchtower, just as I thought, but of course it's an Attack rather than a voluntary effect.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2020, 02:36:37 am »
+1

I wonder if there is any reason why the mat says "you may discard all other copies of it from here". Maybe there's a card that gains you a card to your Exile mat? Or, probably more likely, a Watchtower variant that says "when you gain a card, you may Exile it". In that case you could discard all existing copies from the mat, but not the new one.

And the answer was Gatekeeper! It triggers at the same time as Watchtower, just as I thought, but of course it's an Attack rather than a voluntary effect.

How would Gatekeeper be affected by that?  Gatekeeper only Exiles a card if there's no copies on the Exile mat, if there is one or more copies, it has no effect, and you can discard as usual
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2020, 05:14:06 am »
+1

How would Gatekeeper be affected by that?  Gatekeeper only Exiles a card if there's no copies on the Exile mat, if there is one or more copies, it has no effect, and you can discard as usual

The ability of the Exile mat always triggers when you gain a card. Then, on resolution, it checks if you have other copies of that card in Exile and discards them. One example where this is relevant is that you gain a Gold (none yet on the Exile mat) and react with Sheepdog, but play it using Way of the Camel (which Exiles a Gold from the Supply). So when the Exile mat ability resolves, there is now actually a Gold to discard!

Taking this into account, a mat ability that doesn't say "other" wouldn't make Gatekeeper work as intended. The attacked player that is gaining an Action or Treasure card would choose to resolve the Gatekeeper ability first (exiling the gained card), then the Exile mat ability second, which (without "other") would see no problem to the discard the just Exiled card.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 05:15:15 am by Ingix »
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Re: Menagerie Previews 3: Exile
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2020, 11:22:23 am »
+1

To put it another way: The thing to realize is that both Gatekeeper and the Exile mat have when-gain abilities, so they trigger at the same time. You can then choose which to resolve first: Exile the card for Gatekeeper, or discard copies of it from the Exile Mat. If you first Exile the card and then discard Exiled copies of it, you would discard that very card unless it said "other".

Note that there are several other cards with when-gain abilites, which you could choose to resolve before Gatekeeper: Cargo Ship, Changeling, Innovation, Royal Seal, Tracker, Travelling Fair, Villa, Watchtower and Inn. All of these would work as hard counters to Gatekeeper. (See the rules document in my sig, p. 31, for more on this stuff.)
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