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[hhelibebcnofnena]

Eight kingdom cards give Horses, out of a total of 30 cards, plus four landscape cards out of a total of 40.  So, in games with only Menagerie, the chances of having nothing that gives Horses will be very low.  This will give Menagerie games a different feel to them than non-Menagerie games, it seems, as you'll typically tend to have larger effective handsizes

2 or 3 percent chance of an all-Menagerie game having no horse cards (not counting landscapes), to put a number on that.

[rickert]

So all horses are the same I assume?

[ednever]

I've played a few games now.

I like Scrap a lot - especially with gainers (including itself)

Play Scrap on a Silver and it gets you +1 card/+1 action/+1 horse - so it effectively is a cantrip that turns silvers into horses - which is pretty good in most engines.

When you play Scrap on say a Gold - you get Market (C/A/$/B) + Silver + Horse. The silver is not great, but you can turn around and play Scrap on the silver later to turn it into a horse.
 

It interacts really nicely with Sheepdog too. When you gain that horse, you turn Sheepdog into a lab.

I played a game with no villages, and managed to build a nice little engine with Scrap+Sheepdog+Bandit....


Ed

[scolapasta]

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

Nice touch that all the cards using Horses also have Horses in their artwork.

"Gain a card" means from a Supply pile, does ""when you gain a card" also mean from a Supply pile, or in this case, does it include non Supply piles as well? e.g with Livery in play, when you gain a Ghost, do you gain a Horse?

[crlundy]

"Gain a card" means from a Supply pile, does ""when you gain a card" also mean from a Supply pile, or in this case, does it include non Supply piles as well? e.g with Livery in play, when you gain a Ghost, do you gain a Horse?

Livery checks cards you gain from anywhere, so you would gain a Horse with your Ghost.

[spineflu]

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

I mean you can still do cost increases with debt to get around this.

[hhelibebcnofnena]

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

Nice touch that all the cards using Horses also have Horses in their artwork.

"Gain a card" means from a Supply pile, does ""when you gain a card" also mean from a Supply pile, or in this case, does it include non Supply piles as well? e.g with Livery in play, when you gain a Ghost, do you gain a Horse?

Pretty sure "When you gain a card" doesn't need it to be from a supply pile.

Possible explanation:
"Gain a card" expects the card to be in the supply; according to the stop moving rule, it can't be gained because you can't move it. "When you gain a card" is a trigger, rather than an instruction -- it doesn't do anything by itself. There's no secret exceptions to triggers.
Even things like Watchtower, which tell you to move a card when you gain it, expect the card to be in its default gain location, so whether or not it originally came from the supply shouldn't matter.

[LastFootnote]

So all horses are the same I assume?

Yes.

[Titandrake]

After playing a bit my impressions are:

* Having Horses be 1-shot Labs that live in your deck is a cool design that removes the stockpiling +Card tokens problems people were worried about in the previews. Now there's cost to keeping the Horses around too long.
* Livery feels good. I'm not sure exactly when you pick it up, but the important part is that it triggers on every gain, not just the 1st gain. You know how Bandit Camp is sort of like a Village that comes with a Gold, as long as you play it every shuffle? Livery is like that, except instead of 1 Lab, you can get multiple Labs if you have +Buy or other gain synergies. Pretty solid payload all around.
* Scrap has felt underwhelming. It's great at trashing Estates but it gets so much worse trashing Copper. It feels like a Develop-tier $3 cost trasher, it's just a bit slow overall, but if there isn't other Estate trashing you are always picking it up.
* Supplies is good. Basically, you give up one card from your current hand to get 1 more card in your next hand. That's definitely worth $2 when you add that it gives +$1, is essentially non-terminal, and extra Horses can be stockpiled. If you can draw your entire deck, it goes from delayed-Peddler to actually-just-Peddler.

[Chappy7]

Just played some games, and I have no idea how to use scrap right apparently.  Either it isn't a very good card or I'm not very good with it (I'm assuming the latter)
I tried to make it work with Rats, and it was fun, but not the best.  It was pretty handy with flag bearer too, but not amazing.  I guess that's what I should expect from a $3 TfB

[AJD]

It interacts really nicely with Sheepdog too. When you gain that horse, you turn Sheepdog into a lab.

[ben_king]

So I suppose "from the X pile" is now officially phased out as wording for non-supply cards?

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

Nice touch that all the cards using Horses also have Horses in their artwork.

"Gain a card" means from a Supply pile, does ""when you gain a card" also mean from a Supply pile, or in this case, does it include non Supply piles as well? e.g with Livery in play, when you gain a Ghost, do you gain a Horse?

Pretty sure "When you gain a card" doesn't need it to be from a supply pile.

Possible explanation:
"Gain a card" expects the card to be in the supply; according to the stop moving rule, it can't be gained because you can't move it. "When you gain a card" is a trigger, rather than an instruction -- it doesn't do anything by itself. There's no secret exceptions to triggers.
Even things like Watchtower, which tell you to move a card when you gain it, expect the card to be in its default gain location, so whether or not it originally came from the supply shouldn't matter.

With the new errata, the text doesn't need to name the non-supply pile if it specifically names the card to be gained.  But if it doesn't specifically name the card, it is assumed to be from the supply.  So, we don't have to say "gain a Horse from the Horse pile", but you wouldn't be able to Duplicate a Horse, since Duplicate just says "a copy of that card". 

I don't think the Stop Moving rule comes into play here.  It's just the new convention for wording.

[J Reggie]

My prediction for the secret history is that Horses came about as a way to make the idea of +card tokens work. And it's a really good way of doing it in my opinion.

[FemurLemur]

Was really hoping that Horses would be like Castles and Knights (which would also have a lovely thematic benefit), but I guess in Dominion, a Horse is a Horse, of course, of course.

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

If a cost increaser (let's name it "Highwayman") were a Night - Duration - Attack, it could read something like "Until your next turn, cards cost $1 more. For the rest of your turn, the only card you can play is Highwayman". You could instead make that second sentence "Your turn immediately ends", but then this attack is only marginally different from Bridge Troll's attack. With this wording, Highwayman's attack is to Highway as Bridge Troll's attack is to Bridge.

Anyway, that text should prevent you from getting all of the Horses, even with Outpost or Mission.

That way, the only person who can gain the entire Horse pile is an opponent you attacked, and you would have nobody to blame but yourself for playing a cost increaser Attack in a game where Livery is in the Kingdom. The only counter example I can think of is that you could get all of the Horses by playing Possession + this hypothetical cost increaser, assuming the possessed player has Liveries in deck. Even then, either player would have a chance of getting all of the Horses. You may go through their entire turn, find no Liveries, then draw a Livery for them in clean-up and secure them the 30 Horses.

Nevertheless, like you, I'd also bet on cost increasers never existing. The -1 Coin token accomplishes a similar enough idea.

[mxdata]

Was really hoping that Horses would be like Castles and Knights (which would also have a lovely thematic benefit), but I guess in Dominion, a Horse is a Horse, of course, of course.

Livery is proof that we will never see a card that increases the cost of things, as otherwise it could gain the entire Horse pile.

If a cost increaser (let's name it "Highwayman") were a Night - Duration - Attack, it could read something like "Until your next turn, cards cost $1 more. For the rest of your turn, the only card you can play is Highwayman". You could instead make that second sentence "Your turn immediately ends", but then this attack is only marginally different from Bridge Troll's attack. With this wording, Highwayman's attack is to Highway as Bridge Troll's attack is to Bridge.

Anyway, that text should prevent you from getting all of the Horses, even with Outpost or Mission.

That way, the only person who can gain the entire Horse pile is an opponent you attacked, and you would have nobody to blame but yourself for playing a cost increaser Attack in a game where Livery is in the Kingdom. The only counter example I can think of is that you could get all of the Horses by playing Possession + this hypothetical cost increaser, assuming the possessed player has Liveries in deck. Even then, either player would have a chance of getting all of the Horses. You may go through their entire turn, find no Liveries, then draw a Livery for them in clean-up and secure them the 30 Horses.

Nevertheless, like you, I'd also bet on cost increasers never existing. The -1 Coin token accomplishes a similar enough idea.

A hypothetical cost-increaser would also interact really weirdly with trash for benefit cards.  Bishop could get an extra victory token (if the original cost was an odd number), Recruiter would get an extra Villager, Forge could get more expensive cards, and you could even forge several coppers and/or curses to actually get a card - since this cost-increaser would make them now $1 instead of $0!

[kieranmillar]

Just played a game against the bot with Livery and King's Court. Gained 12 horses with each colony. Turns out emptying the horse pile is quite easy. 

[Wizard_Amul]

It interacts really nicely with Sheepdog too. When you gain that horse, you turn Sheepdog into a lab.

Maybe there is going to be a labrador card that gains you horses.

[Donald X.]

If a cost increaser (let's name it "Highwayman") were a Night - Duration - Attack, it could read something like "Until your next turn, cards cost $1 more. For the rest of your turn, the only card you can play is Highwayman". You could instead make that second sentence "Your turn immediately ends", but then this attack is only marginally different from Bridge Troll's attack. With this wording, Highwayman's attack is to Highway as Bridge Troll's attack is to Bridge.

I tried cost-increasing in Seaside (Tax Collector -> Cutpurse), and again in Adventures (Highway Robber -> Bridge Troll). It creates a rules question I'd rather avoid, but aside from that, the gameplay is bad. It got its chance. Yes debt is how you could get away with it.

[Donald X.]

My prediction for the secret history is that Horses came about as a way to make the idea of +card tokens work. And it's a really good way of doing it in my opinion.

Thanks; that is in fact where Horses come from.

[Jeebus]

So now we have "a different thing" as well. But couldn't you have just used the Courtier wording? Like, trash a card from your hand, per $1 it costs, choose one, the choices must be different? I feel as if "a different thing" is kinda informal and inconsistent with other cards.

Or just "bonus" instead of "thing". "Bonus" has been used for these kinds of effects in rulebooks (and in Donald's description here). Or "make a different choice".

[mxdata]

Although, I do wonder if a cost-increaser would work as long as it was limited to buy phase.  Something like "Cards cost $1 more during your opponents' buy phases until your next turn".  That would probably the rules issues

[Jeebus]

Can you choose the order of the bonuses of Scrap?

No, they happen in the printed order. Same as Pawn, etc.

I do not believe that is true of Pawn according to the rulebook--not that it matters, anyway.  It is true of Trusty Steed.

It's definitely true of Pawn, but it may never matter.

The original Intrigue rulebook said: "After picking both, do both, in either order." This was different than Trusty Steed. The 2nd edition rulebook doesn't specify for Pawn, presumably because it actually doesn't make a difference. But it's not defined anywhere that it's in the printed order, as far as I've seen.

[GendoIkari]

My prediction for the secret history is that Horses came about as a way to make the idea of +card tokens work. And it's a really good way of doing it in my opinion.

And here I was starting to think I was the only person who thought that a regular +card token wouldn’t just work.

[pubby]

Just played some games, and I have no idea how to use scrap right apparently.  Either it isn't a very good card or I'm not very good with it (I'm assuming the latter)
I tried to make it work with Rats, and it was fun, but not the best.  It was pretty handy with flag bearer too, but not amazing.  I guess that's what I should expect from a $3 TfB

Open with it and trash your estates.

[Jupaoqq]

Supplies is most comparable to lighthouse, another one of the better $2 cost cards:

Lighthouse: Action, duration, this turn copper, next turn +$1 and prevent attacks
Supplies: Treasure, this turn copper, next turn +1 card (or save the horse for later)

Since +1 card is obviously better than +$1, and non-duration meaning you can play supplies next turn potentially, unless there are very strong junking attack cards, I would definitely take supplies over lighthouse.