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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards  (Read 19343 times)

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King Leon

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2020, 03:20:29 pm »
0

The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.

Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 03:24:27 pm by King Leon »
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2020, 03:59:08 pm »
0

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?

The online implementation seems to favor the first interpretation.  I experimented with playing Supplies and then using the Sheepdog reaction, and it caused me to draw the Horse that Supplies gave me.  So, assuming that's implemented correctly, then Sheepdog would draw your topdecked card
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2020, 04:06:37 pm »
+2

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?

Sheepdog triggers at exactly the moment you gain the card, like Watchtower or Duplicate did before. If you gain a card onto your deck, say with Supplies, then it will be there when you play Sheepdog, so you'll draw it.

If you gain a card to your discard pile and have both Sheepdog and Watchtower in hand, you can decide what you want to do. You can play Sheepdog first, and move the card to your deck afterwards with Watchtower. Or you can move it with Watchtower first and play Sheepdog second, and then you'll draw the card, as in the above example.
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2020, 04:12:18 pm »
0

The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.

Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).

On Sheepdog the title does look a bit "thin", but maybe that is just the lesser contrast to the relatively dark blue background.

The time to actually change the behavior of cards (Animal Fair) is long over, they are being printed already (or at least very near that point).
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2020, 05:07:16 pm »
0

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
When-gain always happens after you gain, so you can draw it.

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #105 on: March 04, 2020, 05:14:25 pm »
+1

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
When-gain always happens after you gain, so you can draw it.

"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon, you would reveal Sheepdog before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #106 on: March 04, 2020, 05:31:52 pm »
+1

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
You gain the card, putting it wherever it goes, then play Sheepdog.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #107 on: March 04, 2020, 05:33:28 pm »
+2

The Sheepdog card does not look final. The font in the title looks a little odd. I hope, that this will be fixed in the release version.

Animal Fair should say “Action card costing at least $2” to avoid that you can trash Ruins (and for occasional reasons also Transmute).
Those images are from the sheets the printer gives us to proofread. They are shrunk, which can make things look slightly off, but that's it. The cards have been printed and are on the boat; nothing's changing them now.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #108 on: March 04, 2020, 05:39:42 pm »
+2

I keep thinking "Animal Farm" instead of "Animal Fair" when I use the card
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #109 on: March 04, 2020, 06:18:02 pm »
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"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon, you would reveal Sheepdog before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".

Yes, that's right. I made this overview: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20064.msg821695#msg821695
It's only Summon and Replace (category 4b).

This made me realize that I needed to split category 2b. Sheepdog is actually the first card that doesn't trigger on itself being gained, that may happen to move a gained card (without tracking the card). Previously only Inn, Blessed Village and Cursed Village could do that, but they did it when you gained them.

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2020, 07:40:10 pm »
0

"Visiting" comes into play here, right? If you gain a card with Summon, you would reveal Sheepdog before you set that card aside, right? Which would especially matter if drawing with Sheepdog caused you to reshuffle. I can't remember what cards other than Summon deal with "visiting".

Yes, that's right. I made this overview: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20064.msg821695#msg821695
It's only Summon and Replace (category 4b).

This made me realize that I needed to split category 2b. Sheepdog is actually the first card that doesn't trigger on itself being gained, that may happen to move a gained card (without tracking the card). Previously only Inn, Blessed Village and Cursed Village could do that, but they did it when you gained them.

More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194

*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 07:44:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2020, 07:52:02 pm »
+1

More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194

*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?

Right, I thought your question was more specific than it was. Yes, with Summon and Replace you have to use Sheepdog right after gaining, then continue with Summon/Replace, and then the gained card could have been moved. With the other cards (which I call "WATCHTOWERS" in the post I linked to), you could use the "WATCHTOWER" first. See interactions 5 and 11.

"WATCHTOWERS" are: Cargo Ship, Changeling, Innovation, Royal Seal, Tracker, Travelling Fair, Villa (itself), Watchtower.

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2020, 08:41:37 pm »
0

More than Summon and Replace. Also Royal Seal and Travelling Fair, at least. Thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15464.msg601194#msg601194

*Edit* Ah, there’s a difference... because with those examples; it’s just another when-gain ability that you could order before or after Sheepdog. So Summon and Replace would be the only 2 that force Sheepdog to be first, then?

Right, I thought your question was more specific than it was. Yes, with Summon and Replace you have to use Sheepdog right after gaining, then continue with Summon/Replace, and then the gained card could have been moved. With the other cards (which I call "WATCHTOWERS" in the post I linked to), you could use the "WATCHTOWER" first. See interactions 5 and 11.

"WATCHTOWERS" are: Cargo Ship, Changeling, Innovation, Royal Seal, Tracker, Travelling Fair, Villa (itself), Watchtower.

Yeah I just missed the difference at first glance, because both categories were talked about in the "Visiting" thread.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2020, 12:30:21 am »
+1

Just realized in a game I was playing that had Scepter and Kiln - you can use scepter on kiln to gain two different cards (Throne Room, can also let you gain two cards, but one of them would be Kiln itself)!  Play Kiln and then some other card, gaining a copy of that, and then in your buy phase, play Scepter to replay Scepter, and then you can gain a copy of whatever your next card is.  Normally, of course, that would be a Treasure card, but it could also potentially be a Night card.  You could also use Villa's on-buy effect to Kiln another Action card
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #114 on: March 06, 2020, 01:13:17 pm »
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Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.

Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.

Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #115 on: March 06, 2020, 01:18:08 pm »
0

Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.

Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.

Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.
Wait ... what if you have two buys and you buy an Animal Fair by trashing a card ... does that mean that Wayfarer's cost is now also "trash an Action card from your hand"?
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2020, 01:47:24 pm »
+2

Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.

Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.

Wayfarer made me realize it's not that simple. An alternate cost means it applies to all Animal Fairs. What if you Swindler one, can you choose the alternate cost of "$0 and trash an Action card from your hand"? That wouldn't make any sense, so the alternate cost has to apply only when you buy it. It can't apply when you pay for it (like the card says), because that would mean you could never buy it for the alternate cost according to the rules (except if you have $7). So it has to be an alternate cost that you can choose when you choose which card to buy. So I guess it is some kind of trigger at a very weird time, "when you would buy a card" maybe.
Wait ... what if you have two buys and you buy an Animal Fair by trashing a card ... does that mean that Wayfarer's cost is now also "trash an Action card from your hand"?

I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2020, 02:02:59 pm »
+1

I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.

No, it has been established in this thread that it's an alternate cost, not something you do instead of paying the cost (although the card says so).

But it only makes sense if the alternate cost only applies for buying the Animal Fair. After you have bought it, it has the cost $7 again.

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2020, 02:08:53 pm »
+2

I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.

No, it has been established in this thread that it's an alternate cost, not something you do instead of paying the cost (although the card says so).

But it only makes sense if the alternate cost only applies for buying the Animal Fair. After you have bought it, it has the cost $7 again.

In fact the OP says this: "the alternate payment just applies when you're buying one".
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2020, 02:10:34 pm »
0

I strongly suspect that the answer is no: wayfarer copies the cost of the last card you bought, and the cost of animal fair is 7$. The trashing a card thing is something you can do instead of paying its cost.

Oh, good point
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2020, 02:24:01 pm »
0

In fact the OP says this: "the alternate payment just applies when you're buying one".

Oh.  :-[

GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2020, 02:36:39 pm »
+1

How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?

This already existed... call a Coin of the Realm right after playing Caravan Guard on an opponent's turn, or call Duplicate after gaining a card on an opponent's turn.
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MrFrog

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2020, 02:46:26 pm »
0

How about discarding cards during another player's Clean up phase?

This already existed... call a Coin of the Realm right after playing Caravan Guard on an opponent's turn, or call Duplicate after gaining a card on an opponent's turn.

Yes. Somebody pointed that out earlier. It probably never happened in my IRL games, therefore it didn't occur to me.
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Oyvind

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2020, 04:27:37 am »
0

When will we get the 7* card symbol here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Category:Card_symbols?
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Gherald

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2020, 04:56:17 am »
0

Be the change you want to see in the Wiki.
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