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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards  (Read 48970 times)

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[TP] Inferno

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2020, 02:53:05 am »
0

So, I'm trying out Snowy Village on Dominion Online, in a kingdom that uses villagers, and when I play it, it asks me if I want to "use Villagers while you can".  So, apparently you get the option of using villagers immediately after playing it.  I'm guessing that will be in the FAQ for the card?
You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
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dane-m

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2020, 03:06:39 am »
+2

You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
Only by converting them before Snowy Village turns off +Actions, i.e. you'd need to know (or guess) at that stage how many more Actions you're going to want to play during your turn.  After Snowy Village has turned off +Actions you're still free to convert your Villagers, but you won't get any +Actions for them!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2020, 03:08:28 am »
0

You can convert Villagers at any point in your Action phase, which includes between drawing the card for Snowy Village and then having +Actions turned off. This specific question isn't in the FAQ.
Huh. So if you have a ton of Villagers due to Recruiter or Acting Troupe, than you can work around Snowy Village's Action denial?
Only by converting them before Snowy Village turns off +Actions, i.e. you'd need to know (or guess) at that stage how many more Actions you're going to want to play during your turn.  After Snowy Village has turned off +Actions you're still free to convert your Villagers, but you won't get any +Actions for them!
True. It can be hard to predict that without knowledge of exactly how many terminals you now have in your deck. Still a nice little trick though.
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2020, 03:38:11 am »
+5

The question about Villagers by Snowy Village is a way to mitigate the fact that IRL it's easy to say "I'm converting Villagers right now during resolution of card X" (which is allowed by the rules, if you are in your Action phase), while it is incredibly hard to to fit that ability into an online implementation that was designed to ask you at each step what you want to do.

So Stef tried to identify the cases where it really matters that you can do it during the resolution of the card's effect, and Snowy Village is one such case. One might argue that you could convert Villagers online using the Villagers mat just before you play Snowy Village, but that has 2 problems:

1) You might get Snowy Village as a "surprise play" from cards like Vassal, Herald or Golem, and
2) You actually draw a card with Snowy Village, so your evaluation of the situation may have changed.

And the question about converting Villagers happens right before the effect to ignore +Actions is excecuted. Since that isn't logged and nothing 'physical' happens, it's easy to assume the question comes up  after Snowy Village has resolved.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 03:39:57 am by Ingix »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2020, 10:15:58 am »
+1

Yeah this is just like the Priest Sewers thing, right?
I hope not.

Hmm, what do you mean? If you have Sewers and play Priest, you trash a card from your hand, which triggers trashing another card from Sewers. Multiple people thought there was a bug because they didn't get + when they trashed the Sewers card. But the reason you don't get the + is that Priest hasn't gotten to that part of its text yet; the rest of turn ability hasn't started.

Similarly here, you have played the second Kiln, but you haven't yet executed the instructions on the Kiln, so its "next time you play a card" ability hasn't started yet.

There's a difference in that with Priest, some of the text had been executed but not all of it, and with Kiln none of it had been yet. But they're still both situations where you have played a card, but because things were interrupted, the cards ability hadn't started to apply yet.

*Edit* Never mind, just saw your other reply. I was worried that you mean you didn't think they were similar in interaction, in which case I was misunderstanding something.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 10:18:56 am by GendoIkari »
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crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2020, 10:56:05 am »
+3

In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge.
Oooh, um.

If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" both times, the Throne and Barge get discarded during clean-up.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "next turn" both times, the Throne and Barge stay out until next turn.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2020, 11:15:38 am »
0

In a bot game, I tried to Throne a Barge.
Oooh, um.

If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" both times, the Throne and Barge get discarded during clean-up.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "next turn" both times, the Throne and Barge stay out until next turn.
If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?

I assume it stays out, because think about King's Court:
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" twice, "next turn" once...
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" twice*...
If you KC a Barge and choose "now" none, "next turn" thrice...

* pull out a TR from your box, and it stays out; when you discard it return it to the box.  8)
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2020, 02:26:47 pm »
+3

If you Throne a Barge and choose "now" once, "next turn" once... the Barge stays out but the Throne doesn't? Or what?
Throne stays out until Barge goes away. That's just the general rule.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2020, 05:44:15 pm »
+1

Another previously (before Menagerie) existing way for a card to be discarded during another player's turn is if you call Duplicate during such a turn. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes opponent's Swindler hits a card with a cost with no bad card at that cost, and then you can Duplicate what your opponent makes you gain. The Duplicate will then be discarded at the end of your opponent's turn.

This used to be incorrect online, but has been corrected because it can now happen much more often with Sheepdog.

With Caravan Guard, it can also happen with Royal Carriage or (uselessly I think) Coin of the Realm.

Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2020, 05:54:15 pm »
+1

d plays a Throne Room.
  d plays a Kiln.
    d gets +$2.
  d plays a Kiln again.
    d gains a Kiln.
       d reacts with a Sheepdog.
       d plays a Sheepdog.
       d draws a Sentry and a Kiln.
    d gets +$2.


Wow, I'm thinking with Innovation this would be pretty complicated.

Play Throne Room.
  Play Kiln.
    Get +$2.
    Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
  Play Kiln again.
    Gain Kiln.
      Play Sheepdog.
         Draw 2 cards.
      Play Kiln via Innovation.
         Get +$2.
         Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
    Get +$2.
    Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Smithy
  Gain Smithy.
  Gain Smithy.
  Draw 3 cards.

OR:

Play Throne Room.
  Play Kiln.
    Get +$2.
    Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
  Play Kiln again.
    Gain Kiln.
      Play Kiln via Innovation.
         Get +$2.
         Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
      Play Sheepdog.
         Gain Sheepdog.
         Draw 2 cards.
    Get +$2.
    Set up later effect to optionally gain next played card.
Play Smithy
  Gain Smithy.
  Draw 3 cards.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 08:35:42 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2020, 06:17:19 pm »
+1

Animal Fair seems to break how buying works and how it's described in the rulebook:

Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less. ... You buy a card by choosing it from the Supply, and then "gaining" it.

With Animal Fair you can now choose a card that costs more than you have. Which of the following is the case?

1) The rulebook is inaccurate.
2) The rule for buying is now changed.
3) Animal Fair has some kind of special unstated rule attached which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.

In case 1 or 2, what could be the rule? "Buying means choosing any card, then trying to pay for it, then successfully buying it if you succeeded in paying for it"? Note that we can't just define "successful buying" as "leading to gaining" because of when-buy abilities. (If you could buy any card and then fail to gain it if you can't afford it, then you could buy cards you can't afford just for Goons-points.) The problem is that you can't define buying as "trying to buy". I mean, if "buying" mean choosing a card and trying to pay for it, then by definition you did already buy it, whether you could afford it or not.

I guess it would rather have to be: "In you Buy phase you can choose any card, then try to pay for it, then if you successfully paid for it, you buy the card." Wait, this rule actually makes Animal Fair not work!

When it comes to alternative 3, I'm not going to try to guess.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 06:59:12 pm by Jeebus »
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kieranmillar

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2020, 06:32:51 pm »
+1

Animal Fair has two costs, 7 coins; or 0 coins and trash an action card, and you get to pick the one you want to pay.

This still feels consistent with the rules excerpt you posted. If you cant afford either cost, you dont get to spend your buy on it.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2020, 06:42:16 pm »
0

Animal Fair has two costs, 7 coins; or 0 coins and trash an action card, and you get to pick the one you want to pay.

This still feels consistent with the rules excerpt you posted. If you cant afford either cost, you dont get to spend your buy on it.

The card says that trashing is instead of paying the cost, which means it triggers when you would pay for it. As Donald said, "at the point at which you'd pay your $7, you can trash an Action from your hand instead".

But maybe you're right, that the card's text and Donald's description is not really technically what happens. Maybe the card doesn't trigger at all, but just has an alternate cost (like Debt). Like you said, the alternate cost is actually $0 and trash an Action card. That would mean that without $7 but with an Action card to trash, you can afford it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 07:06:15 pm by Jeebus »
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mikechike

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2020, 06:45:37 pm »
0

In case not mentioned yet for the devs:

With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.

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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2020, 06:50:49 pm »
+4

Animal Fair seems to break how buying works and how it's described in the rulebook:

Then, you can buy one card, costing as much as you have or less. ... You buy a card by choosing it from the Supply, and then "gaining" it.

With Animal Fair you can now choose card that costs more than you have. Which of the following is the case?

1) The rulebook is inaccurate.
2) The rule for buying is now changed.
3) Animal Fair has some kind of special unstated rule attached which means you're allowed to choose it when buying even if you can't afford it.

In case 1 or 2, what could be the rule? "Buying means choosing any card, then trying to pay for it, then successfully buying it if you succeeded in paying for it"? Note that we can't just define "successful buying" as "leading to gaining" because of when-buy abilities. (If you could buy any card and then fail to gain it if you can't afford it, then you could buy cards you can't afford just for Goons-points.) The problem is that you can't define buying as "trying to buy". I mean, if "buying" mean choosing a card and trying to pay for it, then by definition you did already buy it, whether you could afford it or not.

I guess it would rather have to be: "In you Buy phase you can choose any card, then try to pay for it, then if you successfully paid for it, you buy the card." Wait, this rule actually makes Animal Fair not work!

When it comes to alternative 3, I'm not going to try to guess.
Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.
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Donald X.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2020, 06:51:36 pm »
+2

In case not mentioned yet for the devs:

With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.
Stef knows about this. It's a bug with autobuy; for now you can turn autobuy off.
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Jeebus

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2020, 07:05:21 pm »
0

Cards are allowed to be exceptions to the rules. There are lots of main set rules that cards overturn. You can't look through your discard pile; how can Hermit possibly work? And so on and on. None of that makes the rulebook inaccurate.

I don't want to get mired in rules discussions when the rulebook isn't out yet, but it will all work out somehow. Yes, it has an alternate cost of trashing an Action card.

Yeah, I know cards can be exceptions, that was my alternative 3. But it has also happened that the way we understood a particular rule needed to be updated. But thanks, now I know that it's the card. And it sounds like you're saying that it has an alternate cost rather than triggering when you're about to pay for it.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2020, 12:07:51 am »
0

Animal Fair works rather nicely with remodelers, especially if you have sources of extra buys to make it easier to trash cheap actions for Animal Fair.  I just played a game with Upgrade and Animal Fair.  Animal Fair's price makes it a natural target for Upgrade to turn it into a Province
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2020, 02:42:36 am »
+1

Animal Fair works rather nicely with remodelers, ...  Animal Fair's price makes it a natural target for Upgrade to turn it into a Province

Or Develop into a Province and a Gold :)
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2020, 03:16:38 am »
0

In case not mentioned yet for the devs:

With $5 and 2buys and an action in hand, I clicked buy on Animal Fair and it spent my 2 coffers to cover the 7 and THEN gave me the trash-an-action option. I worked around it by buying a $5cost first but this will be a rough bug when you only want to do the trade.

Thanks for the report, Mike!

Somebody else reported on the problem in discord (I think they mentioned it was from a game of yours), and it is already fixed.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2020, 12:09:48 pm »
0

I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2.  It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2020, 12:36:26 pm »
0

I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2.  It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be

I think you usually want to use it...  unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.

Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 12:41:40 pm by GendoIkari »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2020, 01:53:39 pm »
0

I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2.  It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be

I think you usually want to use it...  unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.

Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
Supplies gains a horse before you buy anything, so his example works.

mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2020, 03:10:31 pm »
0

I was thinking you'd pretty much never want to use Sheepdog's reaction during your buy phase, unless perhaps you knew that one of the top two cards was a Night card you wanted to use that turn, but then I realized that it would still count as an Action in play, so if Peddler's in the game, you might still want to use it during your buy phase if you have at least two buys (or one of your Treasure cards is something like Supplies that gains you a card) to bring the cost of Peddler down $2.  It could also be useful if the card you bought was Villa, since you can actually use whatever you draw that way on either your second action or your second buy phase as the case may be

I think you usually want to use it...  unless you know that the top 2 cards are actually good cards (better than the average card in your deck), then drawing 2 cards you can't use just means that instead you'll draw the next 2. Cycling on average is good; you'll get to play your newer cards sooner. It becomes worse after you start greening; but for most of the game just randomly discarding the top 2 cards of your deck (which is effectively what happens if you reveal Sheepdog when you buy) is a benefit.

Your Supplies example doesn't work, because you aren't allowed to play more treasures after you buy something.
Supplies gains a horse before you buy anything, so his example works.
Exactly.  Of course, the first of those two cards in that case is the Horse you just gained, so you lose the advantage of topdecking it
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mandioca15

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2020, 03:19:49 pm »
0

When exactly is Sheepdog triggered? If I gain a card onto my deck (via, say, Watchtower), can I play Sheepdog to immediately draw it, or does the playing of Sheepdog occur before the card is gained there?
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