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Author Topic: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards  (Read 19342 times)

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markusin

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2020, 09:35:25 am »
0

I actually have high hopes for Barge. +3 cards +1 buy in one card is great no matter what way you slice it, and buying extras is so good for reliability because even using one Barge for duration draw at the end of a chain will make it very likely you kick off next turn, and you can repeat the process. Just like Tragic Hero, not a card to be underestimated.

I'm somewhat excited for Kiln and Snowy Village, and I enjoy the experimentatjon being done in this set all around.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2020, 09:41:15 am »
+2

Play King's Court
   Play King's Court (first time)
      Play Kiln (first time)
      Play Kiln (second time)
      Play Kiln (third time)
   Play King's Court (second time)
      Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.

With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2020, 09:50:31 am »
+1

Things that are now possible but weren't before:

playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
*playing cards that don't immediately disappear from play

What do you mean? Caravan Guard when played on an opponent's turn will actually stay in play longer than Sheepdog. Not sure what you mean by immediately disappear from play.
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2020, 09:58:48 am »
+9

Play King's Court
   Play King's Court (first time)
      Play Kiln (first time)
      Play Kiln (second time)
      Play Kiln (third time)
   Play King's Court (second time)
      Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.

With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can gain a Kiln (from your first time Kiln when you play it the second time ), another Kiln (from your second time Kiln when you play it the third time) amd finally a King's Court (from your third playing of Kiln).
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Ingix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2020, 10:03:56 am »
+6

Another previously (before Menagerie) existing way for a card to be discarded during another player's turn is if you call Duplicate during such a turn. Doesn't happen often, but sometimes opponent's Swindler hits a card with a cost with no bad card at that cost, and then you can Duplicate what your opponent makes you gain. The Duplicate will then be discarded at the end of your opponent's turn.

This used to be incorrect online, but has been corrected because it can now happen much more often with Sheepdog.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2020, 10:05:09 am »
0

Play King's Court
   Play King's Court (first time)
      Play Kiln (first time)
      Play Kiln (second time)
      Play Kiln (third time)
   Play King's Court (second time)
      Kiln triggers x3; gain 3 King's Courts.

With 2 King's Courts and a Kiln in hand; wow.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can gain a Kiln (from your first time Kiln when you play it the second time ), another Kiln (from your second time Kiln when you play it the third time) amd finally a King's Court (from your third playing of Kiln).

Ah, right. So not nearly as good. But still definitely abusable.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2020, 10:12:38 am »
+9

I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.
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silverspawn

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2020, 10:15:36 am »
0

Things that are now possible but weren't before:

playing cards during other player's turns
Caravan Guard already exists.
*playing cards that don't immediately disappear from play

What do you mean? Caravan Guard when played on an opponent's turn will actually stay in play longer than Sheepdog. Not sure what you mean by immediately disappear from play.

Somehow thought it goes to tavern mat first. Nvm.
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markusin

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2020, 10:20:43 am »
+4

I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.

Does this include moat?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2020, 10:26:21 am »
0

Does "no other surprise extra piles" include non-card components? Or is the possibility still open that there are non-card components in the set?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2020, 10:31:26 am »
0

Does "no other surprise extra piles" include non-card components? Or is the possibility still open that there are non-card components in the set?

Well I'm pretty sure there are exile mats.

crj

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2020, 11:29:16 am »
0

I actually have high hopes for Barge.
I'm wondering how good it will be when compared with Wharf.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2020, 11:31:25 am »
0

So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2020, 11:35:39 am »
+3

So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?

it's because wishes are not in the supply
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andylatto

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2020, 11:44:08 am »
0

Suppose I have a kiln in play, and a sheepdog in my hand, and play something that lets me gain a card. I can play a sheepdog, and the kiln lets me first gain another sheepdog, which I can also play, also triggering the kiln. So does this mean that playing kiln with sheepdog in my hand lets me gain the entire pile of sheepdogs? I don't even need a card that lets me gain a card to trigger this combo; it can trigger from my normal buy in the Buy phase.

ETA: Oops, this was wrong for two reasons. First the gained sheepdogs would go to the discard pile, not your hand. This could be patched if you had a watchtower in your hand. But the more serious problem is that I misread Kiln; it doesn't cause you to gain a copy of every card you play, only the next card you play. So there's no broken combo here.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 02:44:12 pm by andylatto »
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2020, 11:47:49 am »
+1

Suppose I have a kiln in play, and a sheepdog in my hand, and play something that lets me gain a card. I can play a sheepdog, and the kiln lets me first gain another sheepdog, which I can also play, also triggering the kiln. So does this mean that playing kiln with sheepdog in my hand lets me gain the entire pile of sheepdogs? I don't even need a card that lets me gain a card to trigger this combo; it can trigger from my normal buy in the Buy phase.

Even if you use something like Sculptor to gain the first Sheepdog to hand (that one you can play immediately after gaining it), the Sheepdog that Kiln gains you goes to your discard pile. You can't play the gained Sheepdog from the discard pile.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 11:49:57 am by Wizard_Amul »
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scolapasta

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2020, 11:51:05 am »
+2

Even in this case, wouldn't you just (have the option to) first gain Sculptor, not Sheepdog?

Kiln says "The next time you play a card this turn, you may first gain a copy of it." So you'd have to choose to gain the Sculptor before it even gained you the Sheepdog.
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mxdata

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2020, 11:58:00 am »
0

Even in this case, wouldn't you just (have the option to) first gain Sculptor, not Sheepdog?

Kiln says "The next time you play a card this turn, you may first gain a copy of it." So you'd have to choose to gain the Sculptor before it even gained you the Sheepdog.

I thought they were referring to a situation where you play Sculptor to gain a Sheepdog, then play that Sheepdog, and immediately afterwards play Kiln.  At any rate, Kiln only activates "the next time you play" a card, so even if you got to play multiple cards as a reaction, only the first reaction would trigger Kiln
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2020, 12:12:32 pm »
+4

One thing I didn't immediately consider until trying it out is that Snowy Village doesn't just make other villages not work. It also turns all your cantrips into terminal actions!
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spineflu

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2020, 12:56:14 pm »
+4

I really like the idea of dogs being vanilla +2 Cards with some reaction bonus.

Does this include moat?

guard dog

segura

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2020, 01:31:01 pm »
+1

Kiln looks strong in money based strategies as it's easy to duplicate your Golds while also producing money (unlike Mint). If you can incorporate Kiln in a gain-and-play style engine, your deck will quickly burst with value. Good card with a lot of build-around potential.
I view it as a weaker, non-terminal (Disciple is often used non-terminally) Disciple with an "out" option, gaining Treasures/Nights.

Quote
But I think Barge's flexibility is usually only relevant when you are over-building your deck, and you should have a compelling reason to do so in the first place. In most other cases it's a Smithy with +buy and in general, you want such a card. But sources of +3 cards and +1 buy are both pretty abundant nowadays and often you'll find a better deal in a kingdom.
I am not so sure. The increase of consistency that duration draw provides can situationally be stronger than the card potentially missing a shuffle. So you might sometimes play Barge outside of "have already drawn my deck" or "have already reached my payload target" situations.
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Titandrake

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2020, 02:59:50 pm »
+1

Hot takes without playing any preview games:

Snowy Village: Looks good, isn't good. Making cantrips and other +1 Action cards terminal will hurt too much. Those non-terminal actions are often the glue that makes engines work. Functions best if you can play it late in your turn, which makes it harder for your deck to go off. However, the fact it comes with a +1 Buy means you'll likely pick it up at some point. Probably average.

Sheepdog: Busted in the right setup, not great otherwise. Kinda like Faithful Hound I guess.

Animal Fair: Man I have no idea. This seems pretty good in cases where you have actions that aren't good anymore, like Moneylender. I foresee this card creating many new 3-pile puzzles where emptying a pile mid-turn gets you enough buys to 3 pile. You don't want to actually pay $7 for this if you can help it, but hey, those +Buys, you never know.

Kiln: Seems great. You get this early, you start by gaining cantrips and Villages, then you can gain draw cards once you have the actions to play Kiln then +Cards, then you get treasure gains late if you want them. I think this will compare slightly worse than Haggler, but not by much. Con: need the card in your deck to gain a copy, instead of buying a more expensive card, takes a bit longer to set up. Pro: gaining immediately opens up reshuffle tricks, gain is optional.

Barge: I also have high hopes for this card. The base rate of +3 Cards +1 Buy for $5 is already a card I'm interested in buying. The option to set up duration draw on top of that makes this go up a lot for me. It's not Wharf tier or top-10 tier, but it's going to be better than Den of Sin and Haunted Woods for sure. This is not a card where you only play it as Duration when you've drawn your deck. This is card where you play it as Duration when you are almost out of actions for the turn, or don't want to trigger a bad reshuffle - both those scenarios are reasonably common and the reliability sounds pretty good to me.

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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2020, 03:27:31 pm »
+3

Animal Fair: Man I have no idea. This seems pretty good in cases where you have actions that aren't good anymore, like Moneylender. I foresee this card creating many new 3-pile puzzles where emptying a pile mid-turn gets you enough buys to 3 pile. You don't want to actually pay $7 for this if you can help it, but hey, those +Buys, you never know.

The other 3 pile puzzle to watch out for with Animal Farm is emptying the Animal Farm pile itself by trashing unused action cards in your hand on your last turn.  If you've got the excess buys and a big hand of Actions, you can burn through the pile surprisingly quick, without needing to spend any $.
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2020, 03:42:24 pm »
0

So excited to have previews of a new expansion.  When these happen, it is always a highlight of my year. 

I showed my wife the cards and she really liked the sheepdog picture. 

I really love how these take old concepts and add a nice little twist to them to keep you thinking and make you possibly reevaluate the normal choices you would make on a board.

Thanks again, Donald.  This is a fantastic game!
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Re: Menagerie Previews 1: 5 Cards
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2020, 03:47:46 pm »
0

So kiln does not interact with wish...is that because it is not in the supply or (the lose track rule)?

it's because wishes are not in the supply

I am trying to understand why Wish won't work. Kiln says you gain a copy of the next card that you play that turn. It doesn't say anything about that card having to be from the supply or having to remain in the play area. So if you play Wish, even though it leaves the play area to go back to its pile, doesn't it still count as having been played after Kiln, and therefore you would be able to gain a new Wish?
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