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X-tra

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Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« on: January 23, 2020, 03:13:39 pm »
+2

Hello everyone! This is my first day on this forum, seeing as I just registered today.
Just as a quick (and rather pointless) preface: My brother and I alongside our partners have been quickly hooked on Dominion. We are by no mean experts. However, that doesn’t stop us from really enjoying our time together, gathering Provinces left and right ‘til one of us trumps the others. So far, we have under our wings the Base set (Dominion), Intrigue, Dark Ages, Guilds and Adventures and we are currently eyeing Seaside. To spice things up, we have decided to start designing cards, seeing as this community provided us peasants with a wonderful card-making tool. We have played a couple of games with them; so far, we are having a pretty good time. We settled on the name Odyssey, for the sake of giving a name to our set. It focuses heavily on gaining/trashing and has a lot of different card types, some of which are two-typed in a peculiar way.
However, like I mentioned before, we aren’t that familiar with the pro meta of this game. We do not even own half of the expansions! Therefore, some of our cards might be in need of rebalance. This is why I am here, requesting you guys’ generous help. We’d like to know what you think of the 30 Kingdom cards we have done. What works, what doesn’t. If things are priced correctly. Loopholes we didn’t think through. Formatting errors. Typos. Rewording to make it easier to read and understand. Any input is appreciated.

Just as a quick note, there are 3 cards that are of Buy type. Cards with that type cannot be obtained in any way outside of your Buy phase. You may only gain/buy them during your Buy phase. Also, my thoughts on some cards will be in italic bellow them.

Newer version of the cards are displayed on the right of their older counterpart.
Without further ado, here are the cards (click on them to make them larger):





Architect (Action - Duration)
+1 Action
At the end of your Action phase and your next one, you may set aside Victory cards under this. At the end of the Clean-up phase of your next turn, trash every card under this. Gain 1 Victory card costing up to the sum of the trashed cards’ costs.





Arsenal (Action - Duration)
+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card and turn this card sideways. At the start of your second next turn, +1 Card.




Bar (Action - Reserve)
(This card's cost is more for each Bar on any Tavern mat.)
Put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this to choose: + and put this on your Tavern mat at the start of your next Clean-up phase; or + and trash this.




Bushfire (Action)
+1 Action
Each other player reveals their hand and trash the non-Victory card that costs the most. You may gain to your hand a card costing less than the trashed card that costed the most.




Cardinal (Action - Victory - Reserve)
+1 Action
Put this on your Tavern mat.
1




Carpenter (Action)
+1 Action
Gain an Estate. You may trash a card from your hand or from your discard pile.




Chalice (Action - Reaction - Reserve)
+1 Card
+
When you gain a Treasure, you may reveal this from your hand to put this on your Tavern mat.
When you gain a card, you may call this to trash it instead.




Commander (Action)
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. You may discard up to 2 cards among these. Add the rest to your hand. +1 Card per discarded card.




Crook (Action - Attack)
+1 Action
+
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck. They discard one. Among the 2 others, they trash the one with the highest cost up to and put back the remainder on their deck.




Devil's Pact (Action)
+2 Cards
You may gain a Curse for +1 Action and +1 Buy.




Fence (Action)
If you have 3 cards or less in your hand, gain 1 Copper to your hand. Draw up to 5 cards. - per drawn card.




Haunted Treasure (Buy - Treasure - Curse)

-2




Lock (Action)
Spend as much as wanted. For each spent: +1 Card and +1 Buy.




Missionary (Action)
Reveal the top 3 cards from your deck. Trash any Curse revealed. Add every other card to your hand. For each Treasure revealed: +1 Buy and +. If you did not reveal any Treasure, +2 Actions.




Possessed Witch (Action - Attack - Reaction - Duration)
At the start of each of your turns, each other player gains a Curse in their hands.
When any player plays or gain a Possessed Witch, discard this.




Promising Lands (Action)
When you buy this, add a Clearing on its Supply pile, or create one if there isn't any.
Reveal your hand. Per each 2 non Victory cards revealed, +1 Card and +.

(For this card, scroll at the bottom of its list. Just like the Urchin is paired with its non-Supply deck of Mercenaries, so is Promising Lands with its pile of Clearing cards.)




Redistribution (Action - Attack)
Choose: +2 Cards; or +.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck. They put back revealed Base Victory cards on their Supply pile and discard the rest. They gain Base Victory cards of lower cost to regain the amount of lost. If they can't, then this attack doesn't affect them.




Refractory Gold (Treasure - Reaction)

When you trash this during your turn: +1 Action, +1 Buy and +3$.




Riverbed Village (Action)
+2 Actions
Reveal any number of Victory cards. Draw as many cards.




Sarcophagus (Treasure - Reaction)

When another player plays an Attack card, you may first trash this to gain a Gold and a Curse to your hand.




Scrapyard (Action)
+2 Cards
+
You may trash an entire Action Supply pile if there are 5 cards or less in it.




Shoppers (Treasure)

+1 Buy
This turn, if you bought 2 differently named cards, +1 Buy and +.




Slaves (Action - Buy - Curse)
+5 Cards
Discard 2 cards.
-2 VP




Stray Cat (Reserve)
When you buy this, put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this for +3 Cards. Then, put this card onto the deck of the player to your left.




Town Center (Action)
+1 Card
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+
If you have any Actions remaining, draw 1 fewer card for your next hand at the end of your Clean-up phase.




Trap (Action)
+1 Action
Put this card on any Action Supply pile where the first card isn't a Trap.
When you buy this, you may trash this for +1 Buy.




Vigilante (Reaction)
+2 Actions
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first discard this to gain to your hand a copy of that Attack card from the Supply.




Witch-hunt (Buy - Victory)
When you buy this, immediately end your Buy phase.
Worth 5 for every 2 Curses you have (round down).




Wonder (Action - Victory)
+1 Action
Do this 2 times: +1 Card, then discard 1 card.
2







Clearing (Action)
+
You may discard 1 non-Victory card for +. Each player may trash a Promising Lands to gain a Duchy or a Gold.
(This is not in the Supply until added by a Promising Lands.)




Oof, this was a long list. And for those who went through all of it, you are very courageous! Thank you guys for your comments/suggestions/corrections and whatnot. This means a lot!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 10:12:11 am by X-tra »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2020, 04:03:36 pm »
+2

Architect (Action - Duration)
+1 Action
For this turn and your next, you may put Victory cards under this. During the Clean-up phase of your next turn, trash every card under this. Then, gain a Victory card costing up to the sum of the costs of the trashed cards.
Seems fine, except the wording is kind of awkward because it's not clear about exactly when you can put Victory cards under it... presumably "at any time", but generally things in Dominion tell you specifically when to do things. Perhaps this could be "at the start of your cleanup phase", because you'll have all the cards you wanted in your hand at that time.

Quote
Arsenal (Action - Duration)
+2 Cards
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card. At the start of your second next turn, +1 Card.
This might be too much weaker than Hireling for such a small difference in cost.

Quote
Bar (Action - Reserve)
(This card's cost is 1$ more for each Bar on any Taver mat.)
Put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this to choose: Put this on your Tavern mat and +1$; or trash this and +2$.
This basically acts like Treasury; giving + each turn for the rest of the game. Interesting, but it might be too strong; seems like you should always get a couple right away.

Quote
Bushfire (Action)
+2 Actions
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it is a Victory card costing 6$ or more, they gain a Victory card of lower cost. When you gain this, trash a card from its Supply pile.

*Maybe too swingy? You could accidentally help a player trash a Curse, for 6$!*
Far too swingy. Donald once tried a "each player trashes the top card of their deck" and it was awful. Giving something in return for losing a Province isn't enough to make up for it.

Quote
Cardinal (Action - Victory - Reserve)
+1 Action
Put this on your Tavern mat.
1 VP
This is basically the same as Great Hall, which has now been replaced with Mill.

Quote
Carpenter (Action)
+1 Action
Gain an Estate. You may trash a card from your hand or from your discard pile.
Super weak. For most of the game, this does the same thing as Ruined Village. It is only helpful at all near the end of the game, or in a heavy Cursing game, and even then only barely helpful. "Gain an Estate" is a penalty, and the card would be very weak even without that penalty.

Quote
Chalice (Action - Reaction - Reserve)
+1 Card
+1$
When you gain a Treasure, you may reveal this from your hand to put this on your Tavern mat.
When you receive a card, you may call this to trash it instead.
When you say "receive a card", do you mean "gain a card"? This seems very weak; both reactions are very conditional; normally it will just be the terminal Copper with +1 card. Maybe balanced at , but still situational.

Quote
Clearing (Action)
+2$
You may discard 2 non-Victory cards for +1$. Each player may trash a Promising Lands to gain a Duchy or a Gold.
(This is not in the Supply until added by a Promising Lands.)

*This seems rather weak. Maybe discard 1 non-Victory for the extra 1$ instead?*
You should re-order the cards to have this right after Promising Lands; as it is it's very confusing to see this first. Without reading Promising Lands yet; this is indeed weak; I misread it as discard 2 non-Victory cards for each, and that would still be weak. I would think just allow discarding of Victory also.

Separate reply for the rest.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 04:48:11 pm »
+1

Hi! Welcome to the forum!

Here's my rundown on these as I read.

Buy cards - interesting idea, but what happens when, say, they're in the trash and a Rogue or Graverobber is instructed to gain them? which rules break?

Architect, you may want to rephrase so you're setting aside cards rather than putting cards.
It's kinda got limited utility in a kingdom without either Shelters or alt-Victory tho.

Arsenal is probably underpriced but will also have tracking issues - is this the turn I discard it? or next?

Bar is neat but the way it's phrased it can be called repeatedly at the start of your turn for $1, since it immediately goes back to the tavern mat. You might want to rephrase the call to :
"At the start of your turn, call this to choose one: $2 and trash this; or $1, and when you would discard this from play, put this on your Tavern mat".
It's also probably underpriced (even with the inherent price fluctuations) considering it's similar to Canal or getting the Key artifact from Treasurer.

Bushfire is bad and swingy, not in a fun way. Again, probably underpriced. Compare with Swindler or Saboteur. There's no reason it should be giving +actions with that effect.

Cardinal is fine. likewise Carpenter. Neither will be my first pick for cards to go after but they'll probably see some play.

Chalice has an issue, in that "receiving" a card isn't a defined thing - that's gaining. Compare with Trader.

Clearing seems pretty weak and not worth getting. Promising Lands needs a once-over on its verbiage - you can't "create" a Clearing, you add one to its pile - also kinda weak too - i'd change it to per non-Victory card revealed, +1 Card, +$1. Weird niche that one is filling but revise it so we don't have to do math, just say the number.

Commander seems to be very much in the same space as Catacombs, except that's better.

Crook definitely needs a benefit to you, and again, it's swingy and kind of weak. Also "most expensive" isn't well defined - is Engineer or Golem more expensive? What about Silver or University?

Devil's Pact is good but can probably be $3 and doesn't need both the +Action and +Buy.

Fence is fine balance-wise but I don't know why I'd ever buy it.

Haunted Treasure (and Slaves, man, whys everyone put slaves in games, what a downer, I'm playing a game I don't wanna think about man's gross injustices against his fellow man), you gotta be careful using the Curse type. Slaves is also too good. rinkworks wrote a whole thing on it

Lock is too strong. Compare with Storyteller. This will lead to golden decks in games with Goons.

Missionary is way too swingy as-is but maybe if you added a scrying pool esque mechanic where you can peek and discard a card or two it'd be fine.

Possessed Witch is bonkers at $2 - hows it play? Usually I can kind of model a game in my head but i'm just picturing all the curses gone by like, turn 6 and no thank you. You almost need to have a setup rule for including a trasher since everyones gonna be so heavily junked immediately with that card.

Redistribution needs a rewording or two - if I put back a Province, do I take two Duchies? If I put back a Colony, can I take ten Estates? Either way, it's some shenanigans.

Refractory Gold doesn't actually need a type. That's neat. Gonna be useless in some games but neat.

Riverbed Village is really good and should probably be at least a $5 - compare with City Quarter.

Sarcophagus is overpriced at $5 - $3 or even $2 is probably fine. Compare with Fool's Gold.

Scrapyard is bonkers at $4. Should probably be $5 and also the bottom of a split pile.

Shoppers, the effect never triggers as-written - you can't play treasure after you've started buying cards.

Stray Cat shouldn't have the attack type. How's a Moat gonna block it when it's never played? What do you mean leftmost player who can receive it?

Town Center is neat - i'd phrase the bit at the end as "If you have any Actions (not Action cards) remaining, when drawing a new hand during your Clean up phase, only draw 4 cards."

Trap is good - i think kru5h did a similar card called Rabbits. He priced it at $1

Vigilante is .... well, rinkworks and DXV have some opinions on it.

Witch-Hunt, early on i did a thing similar to this but the idea that Curses are good is very un-dominion, may make it so people aren't using Cursing attacks.
Anordinaryman put it better than I could in his judging on my card:
Making curses a benefit is the type of anti-Dominion stuff that will probably never belong in a main-line expansion. I think there's a stronger reason for that—most cards are based on the assumption that curses are bad. I think turning them into -1vp silvers makes a lot of the cursers no longer playable. Witch becomes: “+2 cards, each other player gains a silver.” Well, it doesn't always, you have to play a heretic. But it's the threat of that which I worry would prevent players from buying witch in the first place. Any game that has *some curser* and Heretic would be less interesting than a game with only *that curser*. It reminds me of how some fans make reaction cards that hurt the player playing an attack – that's a bad design choice because it creates a threat that prevents players from buying attack cards. That's how I feel about the general ability of making curses beneficial. So I have a problem with the central concept of this card.

Wonder is probably ok at $6 but better at $7 and then why not just get a Province if you're that far in? Or why not make it a Project or Landmark that gives 2VP for each card you have with Market in its name?




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GendoIkari

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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 04:48:48 pm »
+1

Commander (Action)
Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. You may discard up to 2 cards among these. Add the rest to your hand. +1 Card per discarded card.
Seems very similar to Oracle except without the attack part. Not strictly worse, but still almost certainly weaker. Also the wording is a bit difficult in terms of easily seeing what's going on. As in, I had to think about it before realizing that this ends up drawing you 2 cards no matter what.

Quote
Crook (Action - Attack)
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck. They discard one. Among the 2 others, they trash the most expensive one costing 6$ or less and put back the remainder on their deck.

*Do you guys believe that this card requires a non-Attack part, in case the Attack fails?*
Whether it fails or not; pretty much all attacks require a non-attack part. Attacks that do nothing for the person who played them are generally disliked. So are attacks that trash... there's two reasons Donald removed Saboteur from Dominion, and this card encompasses both. Also this just seems too similar to Knights.

Quote
Devil's Pact (Action)
+2 Cards
You may gain a Curse for +1 Action and +1 Buy.
I like it!

Quote
Fence (Action)
If you have 3 cards or less in your hand, gain 1 Copper to your hand. Draw up to 5 cards. -1$ per drawn card.
I don't understand why you would buy this... it seems extremely weak; like a much worse Watchtower. Except extreme edge cases, it's strictly worse than Watchtower.

Quote
Haunted Treasure (Buy - Treasure - Curse)
3$
-1 VP
This exact card has been suggested many times before. It has several issues. First off, having another card with the type Curse adds a lot of confusion and rules issues. Suddenly "gain a curse" as written on many other cards is no longer a clear instruction (do you gain a card named Curse or a card with the type Curse?) Also, the penalty just doesn't matter; anytime you would use to buy a Gold (instead of a different that might be stronger), you would still buy this. Either you can trash it before the end of the game, or the -1 VP doesn't matter much anyway. Cursed Gold implements this basic idea without these issues.

Quote
Lock (Action)
Spend as much $ as wanted. For each $ spent: +1 Card and +1 Buy.

*Could be too OP. A situation where this has been way too strong has never occured during our games though.*
Similar to Storyteller, though not sure if it's stronger... it's terminal, doesn't let you play treasures, and doesn't give +. On the other hand, it's cheaper, give +buy, and lets you choose how much to pay. The biggest issue is that if this shows up in a Kingdom with no non-terminal -producing actions, it's completely dead. I think Storyteller does a great job at fixing this by giving + by itself. Not sure if balanced or not, but feels like it just lacks some of the design thought that went into Storyteller.

Quote
Missionary (Action)
Reveal cards from your deck until a non-Treasure card is revealed. Add every revealed card to your hand. For each revealed card of this type:
Action: +1 Action
Treasure : +1 Buy and +1$.
Curse: You may trash this Curse.

*I dunno if this is too swingy. For 7$, drawing a Victory card first and killing your Action phase could be annoying.*
This is super weak in any action-heavy deck (just being +1 card, +1 action).. and the strongest decks in most Kingdoms are action-heavy decks. But in a big money deck, this card is basically crazy.... if this reveals 2 treasures and then an action, it's already far too good. I don't know if this can be balanced; it's either way overpowered or very weak depending on the Kingdom.

Quote
Possessed Witch (Action - Attack - Reaction - Duration)
Do not discard this during your Clean-up phase. At the start of your turn, each other player gains a Curse in their hand.
When you gain a Curse or when another player trashes a Curse, trash this.
"Do not discard this during your clean-up phase" is not needed; see Hireling. It does need an "until" though, because as worded, it will keep giving out Curses even if it gets trashed. Assuming that "at the start of your turn" was meant to be "at the start of each of your turns". Not sure if this is good or not; buying one basically forces your opponent to also buy one. And if there's no Curse-trashing available, the second player to play one of these has a big advantage... similar to Flag Bearer I suppose.

Quote
Promising Lands (Action)
When you buy this, add a Clearing on its Supply pile, or create one if there isn't any.
Reveal your hand. Per each 2 non Victory cards revealed, +1 Card and +1$.
Just by itself, playing one of these in a normal hand (except at the start of the game) gives +2 cards +. Pretty good. Gets crazier if you can make a larger hand size first. It might be too strong, but seems like a solid concept by itself... not sure it needs the Clearing stuff. The only reason to have a pile that starts empty and gets 1 card added periodically is if that card is really good. If Clearing were much stronger, this could work. The wording is awkward too, at first I thought you added a Clearing to the Promising Lands pile.

Quote
Redistribution (Action - Attack)
Choose: +2 Cards; or +2$.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck. They put back revealed Base Victory cards on their Supply pile and discard the rest. They gain Base Victory cards of lower cost to regain the amount of VP lost. If they can't, then this attack doesn't affect them.
The wording is very confusing. "Base Victory cards" is not an existing term in Dominion, though I can guess what you mean. Although I don't know whether Colony would count or not. Why not just make it work on any Victory cards? Basically what you're trying to do here is replace a Duchy with 3 Estates, or a Province with a Duchy and 2 Estates... that comes out more or less the same as just having them gain 2 Junk cards. When it hits; it's really strong, almost a much as "each opponent gains 2 Curses". But it's going to miss a lot as well... it does nothing at all most of the time you play it (it will either reveal no victory cards, or only Estates, which does nothing). So overall, too swingy I think.

Quote
Refractory Gold (Reaction)
When you trash this during your turn:
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+3$
Interesting, but it can easily show up in a Kingdom with no trashing available. Other "when you trash this" cards all do something else even if trashing isn't available. Maybe just make it a treasure worth ? That might be really interesting and balanced.

Quote
Riverbed Village (Action)
+2 Actions
Reveal any number of Victory cards. Draw as many cards.
Check out Crossroads. This is almost the same thing; except instead of giving +3 Actions the first time you play one each turn, you give +2 Actions every time.

Quote
Sarcophagus (Treasure - Reaction)
1$
+1 Buy
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first trash this to gain a Gold and a Curse.

*I believe this is overpriced. Should it be at 4$? Or should it stay like this?*
Would maybe be balanced if it just gave a Gold without a Curse. Very weak as it is. But even if it only gave a Gold, in games without attacks you just wouldn't ever get one unless there were no other way to get +buy at all. A version without the Curse might be balanced at actually.

Quote
Scrapyard (Action)
+2 Cards
+1$
You may trash an entire Action Supply pile if there are 5 cards or less in it.

*I'm tempted to bring this down to 4 cards or less. Delay rush games just a tad.*
4 Cards or less is probably better. This seems like it might be un-fun to play with, but it could be balanced.


The rest to come!
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 04:55:16 pm »
+1

Arsenal (Action - Duration)
+2 Cards
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card. At the start of your second next turn, +1 Card.
This might be too much weaker than Hireling for such a small difference in cost.

I agree that it's too weak for , but I disagree with the reasoning. I used to believe that Hireling was brokenly OP, but I've since come around on that belief and have realized that it's actually pretty weak for . This is because Hireling is very slow due to doing absolutely nothing on the turn you play it, whereas Arsenal doesn't have that issue. The reason I'd say it's too weak is because of comparing it to Wharf (granted, Wharf actually is bonkers). Arsenal is essentially a Wharf without the +Buys and with the second draw split between two turns. It's about as close to being strictly worse than Wharf as it can get without actually doing so.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 05:17:02 pm »
+2

Shoppers (Treasure)
1$
If you bought 2 differently named cards, +1 Buy and +5$.
I don't see how this one works in terms of wording / the rules. At the time you play it, you won't have bought any cards, so you can't have bought 2 differently named cards. You can probably get what you want with "this turn, if you buy a second card and it has a different name than the first card you bought, +1 Buy and +". The problem is, it could easily show up in a Kingdom where there is no +buy available. I think it needs to give +buy normally itself. Not sure about balance; but there will be an interesting decision about when to just take a Copper with your normal buy so that you can also get a .

Quote
Slaves (Action - Buy - Curse)
+5 Cards
Discard 2 cards.
-2 VP
See my earlier comments about the Curse type. This basically is just a much stronger Embassy with a VP penalty. Also, I hadn't noticed the "Buy" type when commenting on the first one; I'm not sure what that really adds to the game; what's the point of limiting one of the two ways that you can gain cards in Dominion? It neither makes the card stronger nor weaker.

Quote
Stray Cat (Attack - Reserve)
When you buy this, put it on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this for +3 Cards. Then, put this card onto the deck of the leftmost player who can receive it. Otherwise, trash it.
I'm confused about the "Attack" part... this won't have any interaction with reactions like Moat, so having that type just leads to confusion. See Ill-Gotten Gains. Also, what does "receive it" mean? And when does "otherwise, trash it" come into play? If you choose not to call it? Why would you do that? If you put it on the deck of the leftmost player, you are basically giving them a Curse; as there's no way to play the card or put it on your Tavern mat beyond buying it. Finally, it's a Curse that attacks only one player, which is bad for 3+ player games.

Quote
Town Center (Action)
+1 Card
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+2$
If you didn't use all of your actions this turn, start your next turn with a hand of 4 cards.
Seems interesting. Probably overpowered though; even if you always started every turn with 4 cards it would be worth it to play as many of these as you could every turn. The wording needs cleaned up; "start your next turn with a hand of 4 cards" should be "only draw 4 cards for your next hand during cleanup". It would just get rid of the "if you didn't use all your actions" part; it won't be too weak even if the penalty is automatic.

Quote
Trap (Action)
+1 Action
Put this card on any Action Supply pile where the first card isn't a Trap.
When you buy this, you may trash this for +1 Buy.
Seems like a weaker Embargo. Also with just 2 cost reduction, you can immediately drain the entire pile whenever you want.

Quote
Vigilante (Action - Attack - Reaction)
+2 Actions
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first discard this to put the Attack into your play area (that player loses that Attack). Play that Attack.

*I believe that by design, this card doesn't truly work? Should it be: "to gain a copy of this Attack from the Supply" instead of stealing from the Attacker? I dunno...*
Your thoughts are correct; it at least needs to gain its own copy... as it is, no one would ever buy an attack card if this card is in the Kingdom. Which in turn means no one would buy this card. If it gains its own copy it might be ok, but still very swingy. Playing an attack becomes a big risk that a person has to think about before each time they play one, if they know their opponent has bought any of these. Also, Donald X has a great post that I can't find right now about why it's bad to have reactions that punish the attacker. A lot of it comes down to the fact that in a 4-player game, it is simply far too punishing to the attacker to the point where they will just avoid attacks.

Quote
Witch-hunt (Buy - Victory)
When you buy this, immediately end your Buy phase.
Worth 5 VP for every 2 Curses you have (round down).
Way too good in the right situation.... even if you just have 4 Curses, this is as good as Colony. In any engine that generate many +buys; you simply end the game by draining Curses and getting one of these. It's good that you can only buy one per turn, but I don't think that's enough to balance it. This is 25 if you have 10 Curses.

Quote
Wonder (Action - Victory)
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1$
2 VP
Too powerful compared to Market. isn't much harder to get than ; though for sure harder to buy 2 or 3 at once.

Quote
Oof, this was a long list. And for those who went through all of it, you are very courageous! Thank you guys for your comments/suggestions/corrections and whatnot. This means a lot!

No problem; this is actually fun for me! Hope none of the criticism sounds harsh; I just point out mistakes or flaws where I see them!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 05:19:43 pm »
+1

Commander seems to be very much in the same space as Catacombs, except that's better.

Catacombs draws 3, Commander draws 2. Seems more like Oracle to me.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 05:28:34 pm »
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Commander seems to be very much in the same space as Catacombs, except that's better.

Catacombs draws 3, Commander draws 2. Seems more like Oracle to me.

yeah theres prolly a couple of those imprecise comparisons in there - Arsenal compares similarly to Gear or Archive. Still a tracking headache.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 05:37:17 pm by spineflu »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 06:29:08 pm »
+2

Guys, I would like to thank you all so much for those very well-put answers (and so quickly too)! I was hesitating for a really long time to post those card ideas, seeing as our group is relatively new to this franchise as opposed to you veterans. That made me scared of poking out of our bubble into the outside world. But you are all very nice and very considerate and so, again, thank you very much for that!

I will tackle certain points about the cards that have been lifted in this thread. Apologies if the quotes are messed-up (like the coin icons not appearing).

Buy cards:
Buy cards - interesting idea, but what happens when, say, they're in the trash and a Rogue or Graverobber is instructed to gain them? which rules break?
Did you try to get that card during your Action phase? If so, then you cannot get that Buy type card. Same when, for instance, an Ambassador returns a Buy card onto its Supply pile; other players do not get a copy of it.

Architect:
Seems fine, except the wording is kind of awkward because it's not clear about exactly when you can put Victory cards under it... presumably "at any time", but generally things in Dominion tell you specifically when to do things. Perhaps this could be "at the start of your cleanup phase", because you'll have all the cards you wanted in your hand at that time.
Architect, you may want to rephrase so you're setting aside cards rather than putting cards.
It's kinda got limited utility in a kingdom without either Shelters or alt-Victory tho.
“At the start of your Clean-up phase” will be added on that card. You are right, you can’t leave information floating like that. I will also use the “set aside” lexicon. It’s better that way.

Arsenal:
This might be too much weaker than Hireling for such a small difference in cost.
Arsenal, lol. This card used to be “+1 Card. At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards. At the start of your second next turn, +3 Cards.”. My partner bought like 3 and played them back-to-back. Donald would be paralyzed with terror if he saw what we did to his game. I dunno if giving more +Cards at the beginning of subsequent turns would be a good idea though. Without playing an Action, you get to have 7 cards in hand straight away? Seems too easy for 5$. I could rework that card, but now that you know its history, I’m scared of destroying the balance of Dominion again, lol.

Also on the topic of Arsenal:
Arsenal is probably underpriced but will also have tracking issues - is this the turn I discard it? or next?
I made a mini .PDF rulebook in which I talk about the cards akin to the official Dominion rulebooks. In it, I say that you should turn the card sideways when you would normally discard that Duration card (the Clean-up phase of your next turn). That way, taking your second next turn, you’ll see that the card is sideways and therefore should be discarded at the end of this turn.

Bushfire:
Far too swingy. Donald once tried a "each player trashes the top card of their deck" and it was awful. Giving something in return for losing a Province isn't enough to make up for it.
Bushfire is bad and swingy, not in a fun way. Again, probably underpriced. Compare with Swindler or Saboteur. There's no reason it should be giving +actions with that effect
If it’s any consolation, I agree completely with both of you. But my brother insisted about including this (he made 15 cards, I made the 15 others). Mind you, at first it just straight up trashed the top card, no matter what. I was on my knees begging him to spare the poor lil’ Provinces (or Colonies) until he gave in. Anyway, yeah. This card needs a total rework. It wasn’t particularly unfun when we played with these, but that does not mean it can’t be. And it probably will. On the todo list with you!

Cardinal:
This is basically the same as Great Hall, which has now been replaced with Mill.
I do like the fact that this card doesn’t come back to bother your hand, though (granted, kind of the same as +1 Card, +1 Action).

Chalice:
When you say "receive a card", do you mean "gain a card"? This seems very weak; both reactions are very conditional; normally it will just be the terminal Copper with +1 card. Maybe balanced at , but still situational.
Chalice has an issue, in that "receiving" a card isn't a defined thing - that's gaining. Compare with Trader.
“Receive” will be changed to “gain”. I have no idea what I was thinking there. I might drop the price by 1$ for this one.

Clearing:
You should re-order the cards to have this right after Promising Lands; as it is it's very confusing to see this first. Without reading Promising Lands yet; this is indeed weak; I misread it as discard 2 non-Victory cards for  each, and that would still be weak. I would think just allow discarding of Victory also.
Clearing seems pretty weak and not worth getting. Promising Lands needs a once-over on its verbiage - you can't "create" a Clearing, you add one to its pile - also kinda weak too - i'd change it to per non-Victory card revealed, +1 Card, +$1. Weird niche that one is filling but revise it so we don't have to do math, just say the number.
I will edit my first message so that it is indeed less confusing.
But if Clearing is too easy for the player to trigger its full +3$, wouldn’t that be just a cheaper Gold (that eats an action, I guess)? At first, you only had to discard 1 non-Victory card with this card to have +3$. Back then, to me, that seemed a tad too strong. Maybe I made an error when I made it harder for you to get the full benefits of the Clearing.
As a side note, a Clearing pile never counts toward the 3 emptied Kingdoms victory, seeing as it wasn’t in the Supply in the beginning of the game (like Madmen or Mercenary).

Crook:
Crook definitely needs a benefit to you, and again, it's swingy and kind of weak. Also "most expensive" isn't well defined - is Engineer or Golem more expensive? What about Silver or University?
Whether it fails or not; pretty much all attacks require a non-attack part. Attacks that do nothing for the person who played them are generally disliked. So are attacks that trash... there's two reasons Donald removed Saboteur from Dominion, and this card encompasses both. Also this just seems too similar to Knights.
I have not played with Potions and Debt since I do not own the sets that use them. I guess what I meant there was the card that has the highest cost in $. I will definitely add a non-Attack part to that card. A small one though, because that card is borderline close to turn into a novel though, lol.

Fence:
I don't understand why you would buy this... it seems extremely weak; like a much worse Watchtower. Except extreme edge cases, it's strictly worse than Watchtower.
Well, I guess Fence is at worst +5 cards and -5$ (-4$ if you allowed yourself to gain that Copper). I suppose you might want to play that card to fish for Gold to counterbalance the money penalty it gives you.

Haunted Treasure:
Haunted Treasure (and Slaves, man, whys everyone put slaves in games, what a downer, I'm playing a game I don't wanna think about man's gross injustices against his fellow man), you gotta be careful using the Curse type. Slaves is also too good. rinkworks wrote a whole thing on it
This exact card has been suggested many times before. It has several issues. First off, having another card with the type Curse adds a lot of confusion and rules issues. Suddenly "gain a curse" as written on many other cards is no longer a clear instruction (do you gain a card named Curse or a card with the type Curse?) Also, the penalty just doesn't matter; anytime you would use  to buy a Gold (instead of a different  that might be stronger), you would still buy this. Either you can trash it before the end of the game, or the -1 VP doesn't matter much anyway. Cursed Gold implements this basic idea without these issues.
Haunted Treasure (and Slaves) are Buy types and cannot be gained in anyway outside of your Buy phase. Therefore, if another player plays a Witch, you cannot choose to gain that Curse instead of the standard one. However, cards that refer to Curses (say, a card that say “trash a Curse from your hand”) do target the Haunted Treasure. That’s the subtlety of it, I guess. If I were to lower the penalty to -2VP, would that still be considered an auto-pick over Gold? The potential danger of not trashing this before the end of the game is a little more real that way, maybe. I’m not sure.
Sorry about the theming of Slaves… I kinda expected that reaction when I decided I had enough gut to present it in my list. However, historically, I guess it’s still something that happened. The Middle Ages weren’t that pretty. But I ain’t being dense on purpose. I know we’re playing a game and we’re all there to have fun. The idea of having this “harr harr I’m owning humans” downer on the table can be troublesome, I agree. However, the -2 VP do portray this theme as a bad one, so I guess at least I’m condemning slavery. Maybe I should rename the card "Forced Labour" or something.  :P



I will tackle the rest a little later. Very good reflections there, guys. You raised concerns I didn’t even consider and that outside perspective is really useful. Thanks for dropping by and sorry to have borrowed your time with my lil’ problems!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 06:54:55 pm by X-tra »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 08:29:01 pm »
+1

Missionary
Missionary is way too swingy as-is but maybe if you added a scrying pool esque mechanic where you can peek and discard a card or two it'd be fine.
This is super weak in any action-heavy deck (just being +1 card, +1 action).. and the strongest decks in most Kingdoms are action-heavy decks. But in a big money deck, this card is basically crazy.... if this reveals 2 treasures and then an action, it's already far too good. I don't know if this can be balanced; it's either way overpowered or very weak depending on the Kingdom.
The idea behind Missionary was to make something that goes hand-and-hand with Big Money decks. However, in its current state. It’s 0 to 100 going from Engines to Big Money. I see that now. It’d be badass if it could excel at both (and not be game breaking), seeing that it’s currently price at 7$ (not that it can’t change). Maybe it should give you +$ and +Buys only after you revealed a certain number of cards. Drawing an Action card could be a +2 Actions instead. I’m throwing those ideas really fast and there could still be issues, but yeah. Maybe that’s the way to go about this one.

Possessed Witch
Possessed Witch is bonkers at $2 - hows it play? Usually I can kind of model a game in my head but i'm just picturing all the curses gone by like, turn 6 and no thank you. You almost need to have a setup rule for including a trasher since everyones gonna be so heavily junked immediately with that card.
"Do not discard this during your clean-up phase" is not needed; see Hireling. It does need an "until" though, because as worded, it will keep giving out Curses even if it gets trashed. Assuming that "at the start of your turn" was meant to be "at the start of each of your turns". Not sure if this is good or not; buying one basically forces your opponent to also buy one. And if there's no Curse-trashing available, the second player to play one of these has a big advantage... similar to Flag Bearer I suppose.
This card is broken. On my way home earlier, I just thought about that particular card. If you play your Possessed Witch, then anyone else who tries to play one after you are going to get theirs automatically trashed when yours is going to activate. All other Possessed Witch are thus DoA. The idea behind this card is to have a threatening, cheap card that takes a while to start during which other players can quickly dispose of it before it hits, at the cost of wasting a bit of their time. Maybe it should be that whenever someone plays a Possessed Witch (including yourself), every Possessed Witches in play get trashed. Basically, something to keep an eye out for in case it spirals out of control. Dunno how that would work. I’ll rework that one.

Promising Lands
Just by itself, playing one of these in a normal hand (except at the start of the game) gives +2 cards +. Pretty good. Gets crazier if you can make a larger hand size first. It might be too strong, but seems like a solid concept by itself... not sure it needs the Clearing stuff. The only reason to have a pile that starts empty and gets 1 card added periodically is if that card is really good. If Clearing were much stronger, this could work. The wording is awkward too, at first I thought you added a Clearing to the Promising Lands pile.
Clearing needs to be strong, yeah. That’s the idea. You get a Promising Lands. Next player sees that newly added Clearing, sees that it’s good for its price and gets it. But then, that player helps you potentially trash your Promising Lands (that he thematically clears down), turning those good-looking lands into a newly built Duchy.

Redistribution
Redistribution needs a rewording or two - if I put back a Province, do I take two Duchies? If I put back a Colony, can I take ten Estates? Either way, it's some shenanigans.
The wording is very confusing. "Base Victory cards" is not an existing term in Dominion, though I can guess what you mean. Although I don't know whether Colony would count or not. Why not just make it work on any Victory cards? Basically what you're trying to do here is replace a Duchy with 3 Estates, or a Province with a Duchy and 2 Estates... that comes out more or less the same as just having them gain 2 Junk cards. When it hits; it's really strong, almost a much as "each opponent gains 2 Curses". But it's going to miss a lot as well... it does nothing at all most of the time you play it (it will either reveal no victory cards, or only Estates, which does nothing). So overall, too swingy I think.
This kind of Attack gets stronger the more your opponents green their deck. Mid to late game, I suspect. It’s more of a deck diluter, though. They technically do not lose any VPs. As for the Base Supply part, I based the wording off this official structure portrayed on the Dominion Wiki:

I had to word it this way, because you cannot easily split Gardens or Feodums into, say, Estates.
As for the precisions this card entitles, I will simply copy/paste a picture out of the aforementioned rulebook I wrote for Odyssey. This covers mostly everything, I think. Click the image to enlarge it.


Refractory Gold
Interesting, but it can easily show up in a Kingdom with no trashing available. Other "when you trash this" cards all do something else even if trashing isn't available. Maybe just make it a treasure worth ? That might be really interesting and balanced.
This card shall be worth 1$, as a Treasure. You are right about the fact that, comes down to no trashing Kingdoms available, it needs to do something regardless.

Riverbed Village
Riverbed Village is really good and should probably be at least a $5 - compare with City Quarter.
Check out Crossroads. This is almost the same thing; except instead of giving +3 Actions the first time you play one each turn, you give +2 Actions every time.
Because your two comments seem to conflict each other a little bit (Crossroads being priced at 2$), I have no idea where Riverbed Village stands right now. At least, price wise.

Sarcophagus
Sarcophagus is overpriced at $5 - $3 or even $2 is probably fine. Compare with Fool's Gold.
Would maybe be balanced if it just gave a Gold without a Curse. Very weak as it is. But even if it only gave a Gold, in games without attacks you just wouldn't ever get one unless there were no other way to get +buy at all. A version without the Curse might be balanced at  actually.
Awww… But I really like the idea of Cursing with the Sarcophagus. It has flavour, y’knowwhatI’msayin’. I will probably drop its price down to 2$ if that’s what it must take to keep the Cursing part.

Shoppers
Shoppers, the effect never triggers as-written - you can't play treasure after you've started buying cards.
I don't see how this one works in terms of wording / the rules. At the time you play it, you won't have bought any cards, so you can't have bought 2 differently named cards. You can probably get what you want with "this turn, if you buy a second card and it has a different name than the first card you bought, +1 Buy and +". The problem is, it could easily show up in a Kingdom where there is no +buy available. I think it needs to give +buy normally itself. Not sure about balance; but there will be an interesting decision about when to just take a Copper with your normal buy so that you can also get a .
That rewording is indeed what I’m looking for with Shoppers. It has to have a +Buy too, you are right about that. We’ve had a game where we used a Counterfeit to play a Shoppers card twice. +10$ was pretty nifty, to say the least. Really loved that combo.

Stray Cat
Stray Cat shouldn't have the attack type. How's a Moat gonna block it when it's never played? What do you mean leftmost player who can receive it?
I'm confused about the "Attack" part... this won't have any interaction with reactions like Moat, so having that type just leads to confusion. See Ill-Gotten Gains. Also, what does "receive it" mean? And when does "otherwise, trash it" come into play? If you choose not to call it? Why would you do that? If you put it on the deck of the leftmost player, you are basically giving them a Curse; as there's no way to play the card or put it on your Tavern mat beyond buying it. Finally, it's a Curse that attacks only one player, which is bad for 3+ player games.
Since that card is gimmicky, I will, again, link a picture of the trusty rulebook (click the image to enlarge it).

If you think the wording on the card itself should be more specific or should be reworded to be clearer, do tell.

Town Center
Town Center is neat - i'd phrase the bit at the end as "If you have any Actions (not Action cards) remaining, when drawing a new hand during your Clean up phase, only draw 4 cards."
Seems interesting. Probably overpowered though; even if you always started every turn with 4 cards it would be worth it to play as many of these as you could every turn. The wording needs cleaned up; "start your next turn with a hand of 4 cards" should be "only draw 4 cards for your next hand during cleanup". It would just get rid of the "if you didn't use all your actions" part; it won't be too weak even if the penalty is automatic.
Yet another card where you two worded better than I ever could. That change will be applied. How about this change too: Instead of starting with a hand of 4, it could state that you draw one fewer card (or discard 1). That way, chaining Town Centers becomes more dangerous. Play only 2 of them and you’ll only draw 3 cards in your Clean-up phase if you do not fulfill all of your Actions. Plus, every Town Center gives +2 Actions, driving you further away from completing said Actions the more of them you play at once.

Vigilante
Vigilante is .... well, rinkworks and DXV have some opinions on it.
Your thoughts are correct; it at least needs to gain its own copy... as it is, no one would ever buy an attack card if this card is in the Kingdom. Which in turn means no one would buy this card. If it gains its own copy it might be ok, but still very swingy. Playing an attack becomes a big risk that a person has to think about before each time they play one, if they know their opponent has bought any of these. Also, Donald X has a great post that I can't find right now about why it's bad to have reactions that punish the attacker. A lot of it comes down to the fact that in a 4-player game, it is simply far too punishing to the attacker to the point where they will just avoid attacks.
Vigilante’s logistics are a nightmare anyway. Not unlike Possession from Alchemy, the rulebook has a thing or two to say about it. Actually, make that a whole God damned page. Exhibit below is as good as a proof as any (click the image to enlarge it).

The irony of the last word of that seemingly endless mish-mash of rules being “confusing” is pretty funny.
No, really, this card needs a rework. Maybe you could, like I mentioned, gain a copy of the Attack in your play area by discarding the Vigilante. Then, when the turn is yours, you first get to play that Attack card in front of you at the cost of no Actions? Still seems like it would make people cower away from buying Attack cards. Maybe you gain to your hand a copy of the Attack then? This way, you’ll need to spend an Action for that Attack. Mmmmh. There’s definitely something cookin’ in me head.

Witch-hunt
Witch-Hunt, early on i did a thing similar to this but the idea that Curses are good is very un-dominion, may make it so people aren't using Cursing attacks.
Anordinaryman put it better than I could in his judging on my card:
Way too good in the right situation.... even if you just have 4 Curses, this is as good as Colony. In any engine that generate many +buys; you simply end the game by draining Curses and getting one of these. It's good that you can only buy one per turn, but I don't think that's enough to balance it. This is 25 if you have 10 Curses.
Dang, I did not see that “shit I ain’t going to buy a Witch, knowing that Witch-hunt is also present in this game” drawback. This kills the entirety of the design of this card. I don’t know how I can fix this detriment without killing the essence of Witch-hunt. As for your calculations, GendoIkari, I don’t really see it that way. If you have one Witch-hunt and 10 Curses, then you have a sum of (10/2) * 5 – 10 = 15. Its net total is 15 because the Curses you needed to get there drag your score down by 10. Thus, 4 Curses and 1 Witch-hunt are the 5 cards you need to equal the score given by a single Province. 5 cards doing the same work a single card could’ve. Your deck is also now more diluted. Overall, it costed less, but used more Buys, so there’s that factor to consider.

Wonder
Too powerful compared to Market.  isn't much harder to get than ; though for sure harder to buy 2 or 3 at once.
How about it gives you 1 VP and 1 extra VP if you have another Wonder? Or maybe I should just price that card at 7$, I dunno. Close to a Province indeed, but it still gives you a little bit of everything.



I apologise for typos and other grammatical shenanigans, I sort-of-kind-of-maybe-perhaps didn't re-read myself.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 02:45:43 pm by X-tra »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 03:06:28 am »
0


Riverbed Village
Riverbed Village is really good and should probably be at least a $5 - compare with City Quarter.
Check out Crossroads. This is almost the same thing; except instead of giving +3 Actions the first time you play one each turn, you give +2 Actions every time.
Because your two comments seem to conflict each other a little bit (Crossroads being priced at 2$), I have no idea where Riverbed Village stands right now. At least, price wise.

I think what Spineflu is missing is that +1 card per victory card is much weaker than +1 card per action card; because you actually want a deck with a lot of action cards. Spineflu, looking at Crossroads would you not agree that Riverbend Village is much more similar to Crossroads than to City Quarter?

Quote
Stray Cat
tray Cat shouldn't have the attack type. How's a Moat gonna block it when it's never played? What do you mean leftmost player who can receive it?
I'm confused about the "Attack" part... this won't have any interaction with reactions like Moat, so having that type just leads to confusion. See Ill-Gotten Gains. Also, what does "receive it" mean? And when does "otherwise, trash it" come into play? If you choose not to call it? Why would you do that? If you put it on the deck of the leftmost player, you are basically giving them a Curse; as there's no way to play the card or put it on your Tavern mat beyond buying it. Finally, it's a Curse that attacks only one player, which is bad for 3+ player games.
Since that card is gimmicky, I will, again, link a picture of the trusty rulebook (click the image to enlarge it).

If you think the wording on the card itself should be more specific or should be reworded to be clearer, do tell.
Ah, having read your FAQ, what you are missing is the fact that Moat, Champion, etc, will have no effect on a Stray Cat being called. They only do anything when an attack card is played, and you aren't playing the Stray Cat. Ill-Gotten Gains and Noble Brigand service as an official example of this... Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't have the attack type because it wouldn't actually do anything, and Noble Brigand's on-buy effect cannot be prevented by a Moat or reacted to by anything that reacts to an opponent playing an attack card. Without the ability to protect from the attack, the whole "otherwise, trash this" part could just be removed completely.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 03:26:20 am »
+1


Riverbed Village
Riverbed Village is really good and should probably be at least a $5 - compare with City Quarter.
Check out Crossroads. This is almost the same thing; except instead of giving +3 Actions the first time you play one each turn, you give +2 Actions every time.
Because your two comments seem to conflict each other a little bit (Crossroads being priced at 2$), I have no idea where Riverbed Village stands right now. At least, price wise.

I think what Spineflu is missing is that +1 card per victory card is much weaker than +1 card per action card; because you actually want a deck with a lot of action cards. Spineflu, looking at Crossroads would you not agree that Riverbend Village is much more similar to Crossroads than to City Quarter?
I'm not spineflu, but the big difference to Crossroads is that this gives +actions each time, so you can stack them easily, and once your hands get bigger, it is almost guaranteed to become a Lost City+. I agree that it should be priced at $5. It's more like a more reliable Shepherd with an extra action thrown in than it is like Crossroads.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 02:45:16 pm »
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Ah, having read your FAQ, what you are missing is the fact that Moat, Champion, etc, will have no effect on a Stray Cat being called. They only do anything when an attack card is played, and you aren't playing the Stray Cat. Ill-Gotten Gains and Noble Brigand service as an official example of this... Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't have the attack type because it wouldn't actually do anything, and Noble Brigand's on-buy effect cannot be prevented by a Moat or reacted to by anything that reacts to an opponent playing an attack card. Without the ability to protect from the attack, the whole "otherwise, trash this" part could just be removed completely.

Dangit, you’re right. The Stray Cat isn’t played (nor can it ever be, seeing it isn’t an Action card), it is called instead. Cards react to Attacks being played, not called ones. If this is the case, then this simplifies the card by a good margin. The Stray Cat should then be only of Reserve type, the Attack label being pointless. The bottom of the card will simply now state: “put this onto the deck of the player to your left”. Simple and efficient.

I am also aware that this card brings a little bit of diplomacy to the table. At least the Stray Card doesn’t outright say to put it onto the deck of the player of your choice. Now that’d be worse. I still am not sure whether the Stray Cat is into Kingmaking territory in games of 3+ players.


I'm not spineflu, but the big difference to Crossroads is that this gives +actions each time, so you can stack them easily, and once your hands get bigger, it is almost guaranteed to become a Lost City+. I agree that it should be priced at $5. It's more like a more reliable Shepherd with an extra action thrown in than it is like Crossroads.

Riverbed Village will receive a price buff to make it worth 5$.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2020, 02:56:07 pm »
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Riverbed Village
Riverbed Village is really good and should probably be at least a $5 - compare with City Quarter.
Check out Crossroads. This is almost the same thing; except instead of giving +3 Actions the first time you play one each turn, you give +2 Actions every time.
Because your two comments seem to conflict each other a little bit (Crossroads being priced at 2$), I have no idea where Riverbed Village stands right now. At least, price wise.

I think what Spineflu is missing is that +1 card per victory card is much weaker than +1 card per action card; because you actually want a deck with a lot of action cards. Spineflu, looking at Crossroads would you not agree that Riverbend Village is much more similar to Crossroads than to City Quarter?


similar sure but investment in them should payoff heavily near endgame, which is going to lead to more swing - less time to correct/get a second chance if your investment misses
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2020, 06:41:15 pm »
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Alright, I changed a couple of cards, the ones that needed it the most. I will add these changed cards to my first original post. Tell me what you guys think of the change. Some probably still need a new round of re-working anyway.
The changes are described in italic bellow the cards.





Architect

+1 Action
At the end of your Action phase and your next one, you may set aside Victory cards under this. At the end of the Clean-up phase of your next turn, trash every card under this. Gain 1 Victory card costing up to the sum of the trashed cards’ costs.

Text was corrected to precise when you set aside cards under the Architect. Text was overall cleaned up to be easier to read.


Arsenal

+3 Cards
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card and turn this card sideways. At the start of your second next turn, +1 Card.

Some thought this to be underwhelming for its price. Well. Now you draw 3 cards when you play it, akin to a Smithy. The card now mentions that the player should turn it sideways, to help track its current state.


Bar

(This card's cost is 1$ more for each Bar on any Tavern mat.)
Put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this to choose: +1$ and put this on your Tavern mat at the start of your next Clean-up phase; or +2$ and trash this.

Fixed an infinite call exploit, earning you as much +1$ as wanted.


Bushfire

+1 Action
Each other player reveals their hand and trash the non-Victory card that costs the most. You may gain to your hand a card costing 1$ less than the trashed card that costed the most.

Completely reworked that card so that it isn’t unfun (subjectively, I guess) anymore. The swing factor is potentially gone, now? Still a strong Attack in my opinion, hence why I left it at 6$.


Chalice

+1 Card
+1$
When you gain a Treasure, you may reveal this from your hand to put this on your Tavern mat.
When you gain a card, you may call this to trash it instead.

Decreased its price. It’s now worth 3$. Change “receive” to “gain”.


Clearing

+2$
You may discard 1 non-Victory card for +1$. Each player may trash a Promising Lands to gain a Duchy or a Gold.
(This is not in the Supply until added by a Promising Lands.)

You now need to discard 1 card only to get your additional +1$


Crook

+1 Action
+1$
Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of their deck. They discard one. Among the 2 others, they trash the one with the highest cost up to 6$ and put back the remainder on their deck.

A new outside-of-the-Attack effect was added to the Crook. It now gives you +1 Action and +1$.


Haunted Treasure

3$
-2 VP

Now Curses you at -2 VP.


Missionary

Reveal the top 3 cards from your deck. Trash any Curse revealed. Add every other card to your hand. For each Treasure revealed: +1 Buy and +1$. If you did not reveal any Treasure, +2 Actions.

Another card that was reworked pretty hard. I tried to bring its usefulness up a notch if you try to orient your deck toward an engine. It is also less swingy now. You draw 3 cards no matter what. At worst, you reveal only 1 Treasure and this 7$ monster is now worth +1$ and +1 Buy. Still a little swingy. I should perhaps decrease its price down to 6$. But then, he can also be worth +3$ and +3 Buys. The swing factor is not completely gone I suppose. Let me know what you think of that one and if it’s heading toward a more desirable position or if I’m only making things worse.


Possessed Witch

At the start of each of your turns, each other player gains a Curse in their hands.
When any player plays or gain a Possessed Witch, discard this.

This was utterly broken before and so here is a new iteration of Possessed Witch. Here, the Possessed Witch does not get trashed anymore when removed from play: It is instead discarded. However, when ANY player buys a Possessed Witch or plays one, that one Possessed Witch in play waiting to Curse the others are thrown in their respective discard piles. This will force everyone to keep them in line if they get too threatening. It also ensures that a single player can’t have like 3 or 4 of them in play. Matter of fact, only 1 Possessed Witch can be in play at any time. I might drop the on-buy discarding part though.


Refractory Gold

1$
When you trash this during your turn: +1 Action, +1 Buy and +3$.

It now does something if no trashers are available. It’s just a Copper now, basically. Rest remained unchanged.


Riverbed Village

+2 Actions
Reveal any number of Victory cards. Draw as many cards.

Now priced at 5$.


Sarcophagus

1$
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first trash this to gain a Gold and a Curse to your hand.

Was subjected to a huge 3$ price drop. Lost its +Buy ability. Wasn't within the theme of this card anyway.


Shoppers

1$
+1 Buy
This turn, if you bought 2 differently named cards,  +1 Buy and +5$.

Its intended effect can now be properly triggered. Also, now comes with a +Buy to ensure that you can buy 2 differently named cards if the rest of the board couldn’t let you do it (no other sources of +Buy available).


Stray Cat

When you buy this, put this on your Tavern mat.
At the start of your turn, you may call this for +3 Cards. Then, put this card onto the deck of the player to your left.

Card has been simplified a lot, since no edge case needs to be described. Also, it has lost its Attack tag and is now simply a Reserve card.


Town Center

+1 Card
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+2$
If you have any Actions, remaining, draw 1 fewer card for your next hand at the end of your Clean-up phase.

Reworded the reduce handsize part of Town Center. Also, it is now more aggressive toward its user, since every Town Center reduces the next handsize by 1 card (instead of it being stuck at 4 cards no matter how many Town Centers are played that turn).


Vigilante

+2 Actions
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first discard this to gain to your hand a copy of that Attack card from the Supply.

No more “no u” factor in this card. Now, you’ll fetch a copy of the Attack which you put in your hand, ready to use. Reduced the price by 1 because it isn’t as good anymore. It is fairer though and thus, better. I guess attackers could still hesitate to invest into Attack cards with this in the Supply, but probably less so than when the Vigilante outright stole the Attack.


Wonder

+1 Action
Do this 2 times: +1 Card, then discard 1 card.
2 VP

Completely changed that card. Was too close to Market and Town Center anyway. Now it’s like a pseudo-Lab worth 2 VP. Seems ok price wise, but you guys are the experts in that regard.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 08:36:58 pm by X-tra »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2020, 09:49:00 pm »
+2

those all look much improved - couple notes tho:

you only need the first bar on chalice
Vigilante needs an Action type
Shoppers can lose the bar

theres a section on the fan card creation guide about when to use the bar and what it means.

also i still think Architect has a very limited use case when alt-vp isn't present, since
4 estates -> province or
1 duchy + 3 estates -> colony
are the only nontrivial (estate-> estate is trivial) combos you can do w it. Open it up to using whatever as fuel, like a two-turn forge
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2020, 03:29:32 am »
+2

Bushfire - I reveal an Apothecary (cost ) and a Duchy. Which "costs the most?" Those two costs are orthogonal and therefore the answer to my question is "undefined." You have to specify "costs the most ."

Possessed Witch - This card showcases a common misconception. Contrary to evidently popular belief, there's no rule that says that Durations' effects stop when they leave play; Hireling still continues giving you +1 Card each turn even if you manage to trash it while it's in play. Possessed Witch needs to say something along the lines of "At the start of each of your turns that this remains in play" in order to explicitly stop giving Curses once it's out of play.

Town Center - As worded, you don't need the "if you have any Actions remaining" part because it literally just gave you Actions so there's no way for the drawback to not trigger.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 03:31:31 am by Gubump »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2020, 03:38:10 am »
+1

also i still think Architect has a very limited use case when alt-vp isn't present, since
4 estates -> province or
1 duchy + 3 estates -> colony
are the only nontrivial (estate-> estate is trivial) combos you can do w it. Open it up to using whatever as fuel, like a two-turn forge

That would make it bonkers OP. A card that just lets you mass trash whatever cards you want from your hand that you don't even need to have in your hand at the time it's played for two turns AND lets you fairly easily gain an expensive card AND is even non-terminal would make Chapel look like a Scout-tier card in comparison. It's already OP as it is in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 03:43:47 am by Gubump »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2020, 04:52:50 am »
+2

Bushfire - imagine your opponent playing this 5 times every turn. You can't do anything on your turns, and pretty soon your deck won't be doing anything at all. This by itself makes it bad, so even if you took off the +Action and the gain it would need revision.
Personally, I would drop it altogether and stick to just Crook. Because it looks at decks rather than hands, it's far less oppressive.

Speaking of which, Crook should probably not have +1 Action as it's too easy to play repeatedly. The Knights also have their self-trashing to help stop them completely destroying decks; you may find you need to do something similar here.

I think Shoppers would be better worded 'this turn, when you buy a 2nd differently named card, +1 Buy and + $5.'

Vigilante needs to be Action type, and is perhaps too expensive. You could get games where Attacks stop someone from ever affording it.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 05:06:31 am »
+1

Also, Donald X has a great post that I can't find right now about why it's bad to have reactions that punish the attacker. A lot of it comes down to the fact that in a 4-player game, it is simply far too punishing to the attacker to the point where they will just avoid attacks.
Why not have a reaction that hurts the attacker?
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spineflu

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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2020, 08:17:59 am »
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also i still think Architect has a very limited use case when alt-vp isn't present, since
4 estates -> province or
1 duchy + 3 estates -> colony
are the only nontrivial (estate-> estate is trivial) combos you can do w it. Open it up to using whatever as fuel, like a two-turn forge

That would make it bonkers OP. A card that just lets you mass trash whatever cards you want from your hand that you don't even need to have in your hand at the time it's played for two turns AND lets you fairly easily gain an expensive card AND is even non-terminal would make Chapel look like a Scout-tier card in comparison. It's already OP as it is in my opinion.

true, true - i was thinking it was two cards per turn-in-play. misread.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2020, 01:36:01 pm »
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Modified my original post to organise the first round of card modifications. A second round of modifications is in progress as you guys have raised further good points. I will discuss about these concerns later and give my opinion about them (in short, I mostly agree with everything).
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2020, 02:17:26 pm »
+1

Architect: This is way too weak. It's slow, not a good trasher, and not a good gainer of VP. Definitely not a 5.
Arsenal: Fine, and an interesting variation on durations. Probably a bit too strong, especially in money.
Bar: Fine, but boring. There's some first player advantage, but not enough to matter much.
Bushfire: There's way too much potential to trash the other player's entire hand every turn. The gaining stops that slightly, but not enough to make it not a problem. Even without that it's too harsh.
Cardinal: Strictly worse than the already weak Great Hall.
Carpenter: Not sure what you're trying to do here, but this would be a meh 2.
Chalice: Vanilla +1 Card isn't an advisable bonus. Receive isn't a Dominion term, you need to say gain. This is significantly worse than Watchtower with no upside.
Commander: This is almost identical to Oracle.
Crook: Knights that cost 4. Knights are already a strong attack, and this is only a slightly worse version, at least in the late game. It's awful early, too, since it thins for your opponent.
Devil's Pact: Self-cursing isn't enjoyed by most players unless the card lets you use the curse. I really like the idea, though.
Fence: I don't know what's going on with this card, but it seems confusing and weak. Also, strictly worse tan watchtower unless you really need the copper for some reason.
Haunted Treasure: Fine, but boring. Also, thoughts on the Buy type. The name may cause confusion and it doesn't really seem to be doing much as a type, since it doesn't change most of the cards it's on by a lot. This can't be gained except buying by most gainers, for example.
Lock: Dead without money actions, since it doesn't allow playing treasures.
Missionary: Why is the curse clause there? It seems strange. This is a weird card, but is too close to being a better superlab, an superlab is bad enough.
Possessed Witch: Does this stay in play? Its unclear. Also, I don't think it needs the Reaction type.
Promising Lands: This doesn't interact that well or interestingly with Clearing, especially since you can't play both.
Redistribution: This is just confusingly phrased and doesn't work with the rules that well.
Refractory Gold: Fine, a bit bland.
Riverbed Village: Weak and really boring. This is a 4.
Sarcophagus: Remove the curse part and this becomes pretty interesting.
Scrapyard: The pileout ability is scary. Very strong in Money if the other player went engine, and vice versa, so that's actually pretty interesting.
Shoppers: Needs to be rephrased, the +buy goes over the line. The idea is there, and it's decent.
Slaves: Again, it doesn't do anything unique with the Buy type. The card itself is fine enough, but I wish it was more unique.
Stray Cat: I really like this. Does the player to your left get the card on their tavern mat, or does it just go to their deck?
Town Center: There's probably a more interesting card to put the effect on, but a good concept.
Trap: It needs to do more for the player who plays it, maybe make it a treasure worth 1 or 2, but the idea is excellent. It's like a better Embargo.
Vigilante: Shouldn't be a 5, and is too easily a Necropolis for 5.
Witch Hunt: Definitely does a lot more with the Buy typing, and is a cool alt-vp source.
Wonder: Smaller Warehouse with vp isn't a 6. This isn't strong enough.
Some good concepts, but there isn't a lot of cohesion and the Buy type isn't really used. Some of the cards are pretty great, even if some need work. Stray Cat is definitely my favorite.
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2020, 05:08:09 pm »
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A couple of thoughts on your comments.

those all look much improved - couple notes tho:

you only need the first bar on chalice
Vigilante needs an Action type
Shoppers can lose the bar

theres a section on the fan card creation guide about when to use the bar and what it means.

also i still think Architect has a very limited use case when alt-vp isn't present, since
4 estates -> province or
1 duchy + 3 estates -> colony
are the only nontrivial (estate-> estate is trivial) combos you can do w it. Open it up to using whatever as fuel, like a two-turn forge

Chalice: I dunno, I thought it needed that bar to separate its Action and Reaction parts. The third bar being used to separate the Reserve part.

Vigilante: Yep, dangit. That was a mistake. I’ll re-add its Action type.

Shoppers: Yeah, that bar is superfluous. I’ll edit it out in its next version.


Bushfire - I reveal an Apothecary (cost ) and a Duchy. Which "costs the most?" Those two costs are orthogonal and therefore the answer to my question is "undefined." You have to specify "costs the most ."

Possessed Witch - This card showcases a common misconception. Contrary to evidently popular belief, there's no rule that says that Durations' effects stop when they leave play; Hireling still continues giving you +1 Card each turn even if you manage to trash it while it's in play. Possessed Witch needs to say something along the lines of "At the start of each of your turns that this remains in play" in order to explicitly stop giving Curses once it's out of play.

Town Center - As worded, you don't need the "if you have any Actions remaining" part because it literally just gave you Actions so there's no way for the drawback to not trigger.

Bushfire: I need to precise that it is indeed the highest cost.

Possessed Witch: Oh, I didn’t know about that subtlety. A misconception indeed. I will edit that card to add that precision.

Town Center: You are right. I need to edit this card as well. One day I’ll be up to date with Dominion’s terminology, heh.


Bushfire - imagine your opponent playing this 5 times every turn. You can't do anything on your turns, and pretty soon your deck won't be doing anything at all. This by itself makes it bad, so even if you took off the +Action and the gain it would need revision.
Personally, I would drop it altogether and stick to just Crook. Because it looks at decks rather than hands, it's far less oppressive.

Speaking of which, Crook should probably not have +1 Action as it's too easy to play repeatedly. The Knights also have their self-trashing to help stop them completely destroying decks; you may find you need to do something similar here.

I think Shoppers would be better worded 'this turn, when you buy a 2nd differently named card, +1 Buy and + $5.'

Vigilante needs to be Action type, and is perhaps too expensive. You could get games where Attacks stop someone from ever affording it.

Bushfire: Oops. Yeah that’s an issue. A hand killer is a problem and I didn’t see that with my newer rendition of Bushfire. Would this be more acceptable if that card made your adversaries draw a card beforehand? This would ensure that their hand would remain at 5 cards (or maybe more if they have a hand full of green cards) no matter how many Bushfire cards you play.

Crook: I could perhaps put it a +2$ just like Militia is. It’d be harder to chain Crooks then.

Shoppers: That wording is better than the one I’m currently using. Imma steal your idea, hehehe.

Vigilante: Yup, its Action label is on its way back. You think that this Attack is overpriced at 5$ now? I’d like to hear other people’s opinions on that matter.


Architect: This is way too weak. It's slow, not a good trasher, and not a good gainer of VP. Definitely not a 5.
Arsenal: Fine, and an interesting variation on durations. Probably a bit too strong, especially in money.
Bar: Fine, but boring. There's some first player advantage, but not enough to matter much.
Bushfire: There's way too much potential to trash the other player's entire hand every turn. The gaining stops that slightly, but not enough to make it not a problem. Even without that it's too harsh.
Cardinal: Strictly worse than the already weak Great Hall.
Carpenter: Not sure what you're trying to do here, but this would be a meh 2.
Chalice: Vanilla +1 Card isn't an advisable bonus. Receive isn't a Dominion term, you need to say gain. This is significantly worse than Watchtower with no upside.
Commander: This is almost identical to Oracle.
Crook: Knights that cost 4. Knights are already a strong attack, and this is only a slightly worse version, at least in the late game. It's awful early, too, since it thins for your opponent.
Devil's Pact: Self-cursing isn't enjoyed by most players unless the card lets you use the curse. I really like the idea, though.
Fence: I don't know what's going on with this card, but it seems confusing and weak. Also, strictly worse tan watchtower unless you really need the copper for some reason.
Haunted Treasure: Fine, but boring. Also, thoughts on the Buy type. The name may cause confusion and it doesn't really seem to be doing much as a type, since it doesn't change most of the cards it's on by a lot. This can't be gained except buying by most gainers, for example.
Lock: Dead without money actions, since it doesn't allow playing treasures.
Missionary: Why is the curse clause there? It seems strange. This is a weird card, but is too close to being a better superlab, an superlab is bad enough.
Possessed Witch: Does this stay in play? Its unclear. Also, I don't think it needs the Reaction type.
Promising Lands: This doesn't interact that well or interestingly with Clearing, especially since you can't play both.
Redistribution: This is just confusingly phrased and doesn't work with the rules that well.
Refractory Gold: Fine, a bit bland.
Riverbed Village: Weak and really boring. This is a 4.
Sarcophagus: Remove the curse part and this becomes pretty interesting.
Scrapyard: The pileout ability is scary. Very strong in Money if the other player went engine, and vice versa, so that's actually pretty interesting.
Shoppers: Needs to be rephrased, the +buy goes over the line. The idea is there, and it's decent.
Slaves: Again, it doesn't do anything unique with the Buy type. The card itself is fine enough, but I wish it was more unique.
Stray Cat: I really like this. Does the player to your left get the card on their tavern mat, or does it just go to their deck?
Town Center: There's probably a more interesting card to put the effect on, but a good concept.
Trap: It needs to do more for the player who plays it, maybe make it a treasure worth 1 or 2, but the idea is excellent. It's like a better Embargo.
Vigilante: Shouldn't be a 5, and is too easily a Necropolis for 5.
Witch Hunt: Definitely does a lot more with the Buy typing, and is a cool alt-vp source.
Wonder: Smaller Warehouse with vp isn't a 6. This isn't strong enough.
Some good concepts, but there isn't a lot of cohesion and the Buy type isn't really used. Some of the cards are pretty great, even if some need work. Stray Cat is definitely my favorite.

Architect: On one hand, there are people like you who find that card severely underpowered, while on the other, users like Gubump think that it’s too powerful as it is. I’m a little torn about the Architect now.

Cardinal: What about if he gives you an extra 1$ as an Action? That 1$ is usable only once though. It has flavor, too.

Chalice: You are right, it IS weaker than Watchtower. I need to edit a small perk into that card to make it worth it.

Commander: Maybe that card could allow you to trash instead of discarding. In either case, trashed/discarded cards give you +1 card. Would that be too strong for its price now?

Haunted Treasure: In essence, the Buy type makes it so that when another player plays a Witch, you cannot choose that Curse over the usual Curse in the Base Supply. Because why wouldn’t you pick that card if you’re being Cursed?

Riverbed Village: There’s been an ongoing debate on this thread whether this card should be a 5 or a 4. I still can’t fully decide myself.

Stray Cat: It goes on their deck, where it becomes unusable for the rest of the game.

Vigilante: You’re the second person to suggest that this card is too expensive. Maybe I’ll drop it to a 4.

Wonder: Could buff this to a +2 Actions.




Once again, thank you for the much-needed input. I’ll revise the cards once again and hopefully I’ll be heading toward a set that’s pretty okay-ish balance wise.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 05:11:27 pm by X-tra »
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Re: Odyssey: A 30 Cards Fan Set in Need of Input
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2020, 09:02:14 pm »
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the horizontal bar doesn't separate "action" and "reaction" - it separates things that happen when you play the card (includes "while this is in play" portions) and "things that happen when the card isnt in play" and that includes reactions, on-buy/gain/trash, tavern mat, etc.
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