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Author Topic: BM++  (Read 2151 times)

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cayvie

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BM++
« on: January 22, 2020, 04:17:14 am »

has anyone tried making a bastard version of C9++?

like with

C = naive cop
CC = 1-shot insane cop, sane cop
CCC = naive cop, 1-shot sane cop, 1-shot insane cop
CCCC = naive cop, sane cop
CCCCC = sane cop x2, 1-shot sane cop
CCCCCC = naive cop x3

and the like
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 04:20:20 am »

like also the B BB BBB would be compulsive town busdrivers instead of townie roleblockers

and the some of the SKs would be replaced/supplemented by jesters
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 04:21:58 am »

mafia would have a framer, and this setup would stipulate that framing even convinces naive cops.
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 04:24:30 am »

some levels of M would have masons, and others would just have neighborhoods
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faust

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Re: BM++
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 06:16:28 am »

I don't think it would be necessarily bastard except for the fact that it might be unbalanced. But the Ms of C++ are already unbalanced, so it doesn't change too much.

And of course Jesters are terrible.

But having different Cop sanities in a ++ setup seems like an interesting idea that can work in a normal game.
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 01:19:59 pm »

You could probably make a funny C9++ style bastard mafia setup if you're creative enough, though.
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 01:27:04 pm »

also tweak the initial rolls, thinking about this:

do the rolls one at a time. T rolls are treated normally. For each PR roll, flip a coin. If heads, the next roll is a copy of the current roll. This iterates.

Basically to make the things that never show up (DDDDD) more plausible.

look i just read a bunch of c9++ games and variants and it's so annoyingly solvable
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 01:38:50 pm »

actually this is just equivalent to "even rolls are turned into a copy of the previous roll, unless that previous roll was a T"
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 02:40:12 pm »

i'm thinking that you're right, faust, i'm not really going for bastard, not even really for funny, i'm going for solution-resistant and interesting. and i think townie roleblockers are no fun. also with this roll update, i've really got to pay attention to the CCCC, CCCCC, and CCCCCC tracks (and the like); they have actually shown up in some sample rolls i've done.

i'm thinking of having the B track be a combination of bus drivers, lightning rods, and other role redirectors

the V track will have all normal Vigs be compulsive, and 1-shot vigs be a variety of dayvigs. probably split between normal public dayvigs that can only target people on their wagon, and one-shot poisoners who target via mod PM and then their target is told via Mod-PM that they will die that night unless doctored. (i want scum to false-claim being poisoned!)

the D track i will probably just leave normal.

the M track, yeah, we're just gonna get rid of Innocent Children. And replace some of the masons with neighborhoods of one townie/one random other player. try

M = Random Neighborhood (size 2)
MM = Town Neighborhood (2)
MMM = RN (size 3)
MMMM = TN (size 3)
MMMMM = RN (2) + RN (2)
MMMMMM = TN (2) + RN (2)
MMMMMMM = TN (2) + TN (2)

B = 1-shot lightning rod
BB = busdriver
BBB = busdriver, 1-shot lightning rod
BBBB = 2 busdrivers
BBBBB = 2 busdrivers, 1-shot lightning rod
BBBBBB = 2 busdrivers, 1-shot lightning rod x2
BBBBBBB = 3 busdrivers

V = 1-shot dayvig (wagon only)
VV = vig
VVV = vig, 1-shot day poisoner
VVVV = vig, 1-shot dayvig (wagon only)
VVVVV = 2 vigs
VVVVVV = 2 vigs, 1-shot day poisoner
VVVVVVV = 2 vigs, 1-shot dayvig (wagon only)

D track is normal

C = 2-shot insane cop
CC = naive cop, 2-shot sane cop
CCC = cop, 2-shot insane cop, 2-shot sane cop
CCCC = cop, naive cop
CCCCC = cop, naive cop, 2-shot insane cop
CCCCCC = naive cop, cop x2
CCCCCCC = naive cop x2, cop, 2-shot sane cop

replace godfathers with framers
replace mafia RB with mafia busdriver.

leave SK the same

call it KV++, we're ready for a first test maybe
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 02:57:00 pm »

Mmm probably don't want 2 lightning rods in one setup
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Archetype

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Re: BM++
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 03:02:16 pm »

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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 04:05:33 pm »

Oh! Make the neighborhoods more appealing to chat in by making them day chat with a 1 shot poison effect (if all neighbors are alive and agree on a target)
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 04:13:27 pm »

Ok some neighbors are poisoners, some are one shot daycops.

@arch yeah that's a more bastardy setting than it seems I actually want, not surprised I'm not the first to think of something like this though
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 04:22:28 pm »

Gonna have to make all the neighborhoods the same size. Maybe add a neighborhood watch role that investigates how many quick topics a player has access to
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 05:34:22 pm »

Note on cops: insane cop is (almost) exactly as strong as sane cop. The thing that consistutes a nerf is the fact that you don't know whether you are insane or sane. Whether you're actually sane or not is largely inconsequential.

And naive cop is negative utility (results don't correlate with reality but you might believe it does, so it ranges between nothing and highly misleading).

So I'm pretty sure C is better than CC and CCC is much better than CCCC. This is probably not what you want.
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2020, 05:35:52 pm »

Also, I believe that mathy setup analysis will be quite important in your setup. Not sure if you consider that a positive or negative :-)
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2020, 07:34:18 pm »

Also, I believe that mathy setup analysis will be quite important in your setup. Not sure if you consider that a positive or negative :-)

One of my ultimate goals is to give mathy setup people a headache

I think that one of the important things about the naive cop is that, if you get a cop role, you know more about the setting; ie, there's at least two Cs
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faust

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Re: BM++
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 03:10:34 am »

i'm thinking that you're right, faust, i'm not really going for bastard, not even really for funny, i'm going for solution-resistant and interesting. and i think townie roleblockers are no fun. also with this roll update, i've really got to pay attention to the CCCC, CCCCC, and CCCCCC tracks (and the like); they have actually shown up in some sample rolls i've done.
I'll just point you to C9++ variants that ashersky and me have done before on here. I think schadd also had one somewhere, but I couldn't find it on short notice. Both of our setups use added mechanics to make things less solvable.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:16:07 am by faust »
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faust

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Re: BM++
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2020, 03:14:20 am »

Also note that having more than one Busdrvier in a setup seems like a nightmare to resolve. What happens if their targets overlap?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:15:27 am by faust »
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2020, 06:22:14 am »

Also, I believe that mathy setup analysis will be quite important in your setup. Not sure if you consider that a positive or negative :-)

One of my ultimate goals is to give mathy setup people a headache

I think that one of the important things about the naive cop is that, if you get a cop role, you know more about the setting; ie, there's at least two Cs

That applies for every C role, it doesn't justify that CCC is way stronger than CCCC.

I would change both insane cops and normal cops into fruit cops (someone else had this idea a while ago), which obtain either "banana" and "orange" upon investigating someone, where one of those implies a guilty result and the other an innocent result, but they don't know which is which. For each fruit cop, flip a coin at the beginning of the game; if it's heads, then banana means innocent and orange guilty; if it's tails vice-versa.

Then add the role "stupid cop". For each stupid cop, also flip a coin at the start of the game. If it's heads they always return "banana" and if it's tails, they always return "orange". This resolves the confusion around people thinking that a sane cop is better than an insane one. And it also removes the asymmetry of the naive cop always getting "innocent" rather than always "guilty" (which actually makes the insane cops slightly stronger than the sane cops I believe).

Then scale it something like

C - 2-shot fruit cop & stupid cop
CC - fruit cop & 2-shot stupid cop
CCC - fruit cop & 2-shot fruit cop
CCCC - fruit cop & [stuff from C]
CCCCC - fruit cop & [stuff from CC]
CCCCCC - fruit cop & [stuff from CCC]

This way, C and CC and CCC have 2 cops, whereas CCCC and CCCCC and CCCCCC have 3.
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faust

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Re: BM++
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2020, 08:05:21 am »

I think that Even Night is a better nerf than 2-shot for Cops. A 2-shot modifier only ever matters if the player in question lives through N3, and in a normal C9++ style game, half the players are eliminated by then.
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 10:42:33 am »

Also note that having more than one Busdrvier in a setup seems like a nightmare to resolve. What happens if their targets overlap?

my plan there was to have that be resolved FIFO by timestamp. and treat busdrivers as though the players are sleeping in different houses at night, and actions target houses (and busdrivers switch which houses players are in). (IE if player 1 busdrives A and B, and then player 2 busdrives B and C, then that winds up turning ABC = BCA [actions targeting A affect B, actions targeting B affect C, actions targeting C affect A], whereas if player 2 had submitted first, then ABC = CAB), and also to have buses not be affected by lightning rods.

i like even-night. and switch one-shot docs to odd-night docs.

if cop results are turned to fruit, i definitely want to keep the stupid cops as naive-equivalent (instead of a coin flip), so that 1) they can have actually crucial information (i.e., "banana" = "innocent"), and so that 2) they can be susceptible to framing.
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2020, 12:31:40 pm »

I was imagining the coin flip as part of both fruit cops and stupid cops. How would you have a fruit cop without a coin flip?
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cayvie

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Re: BM++
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2020, 01:25:50 pm »

I was imagining the coin flip as part of both fruit cops and stupid cops. How would you have a fruit cop without a coin flip?

Sane and insane equivalents would have a coin flip. Stupid cops would just get whatever result I decide means innocent
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silverspawn

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Re: BM++
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2020, 01:53:32 pm »

I was imagining the coin flip as part of both fruit cops and stupid cops. How would you have a fruit cop without a coin flip?

Sane and insane equivalents would have a coin flip. Stupid cops would just get whatever result I decide means innocent

But do you make that decision public?

The reason why I suggested the second coin flip is that otherwise you have an asymmetry.

Say bananas mean innocent and that's what you announce. Then the cop which returns oranges on townies is probably better than the cop which returns banas on townies, because at least the first cop will learn they're not a stupid cop after their first result (unless they hit a scum).

And if you don't announce it, then it's kind of the same as flipping a coin.
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