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Author Topic: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome  (Read 382 times)

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Saul Goodman

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Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« on: January 18, 2020, 10:50:03 pm »
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Objective here is to introduce cards and/or projects that can be used to shorten games.  This one creates an automatic and inexorable Rush.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 11:09:40 pm »
+3

If I'm understanding correctly, I think this will make some games a lot slower.
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mxdata

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2020, 11:23:12 pm »
+1

Objective here is to introduce cards and/or projects that can be used to shorten games.  This one creates an automatic and inexorable Rush.


So, on the first few turns, each player gains an Estate on their turns, then once the Estates run out, they gain Duchies, and so on?

What if you have Kingdom Victory cards that are the same cost as another card?  For example, Duke is the same cost as Duchy, so if Duke is in the kingdom, how does it work?  Do you get to choose in that case whether to gain a Duke or a Duchy?

That feels like it would make for a rather dull game.  Unless you have Inheritance in play, you'll quickly end up with a bunch of dead cards in hand

EDIT: Also, what if you have Vineyard in the kingdom?  A cost of 1 potion can't really be ordered relative to the other victory cards' costs
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 11:26:43 pm by mxdata »
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grep

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2020, 11:29:46 pm »
+3

This could be a Project similar to Cathedral: "At start of each your turn gain a Victory card with the smallest coin cost into your hand". Might be powerful with precise timing and support
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spineflu

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 12:06:42 am »
+1

if you're looking to shorten games, I'd go with "at the start of each turn, The Victory pile with the fewest cards (but at least one card) trashes its top card; if its a tie between piles, do nothing". That way players can kind of toggle it on/off but it sinks its piles real fast.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 12:12:44 pm by spineflu »
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2020, 12:38:52 am »
+1

if you're looking to shorten games, I'd go with "at the start of each turn, The Victory pile with the fewest cards trashes its top card; if its a tie, do nothing". That way players can kind of toggle it on/off but it sinks its piles real fast.

Interesting!  Sets a timer!  I like it!
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2020, 12:44:36 am »
0

Objective here is to introduce cards and/or projects that can be used to shorten games.  This one creates an automatic and inexorable Rush.


So, on the first few turns, each player gains an Estate on their turns, then once the Estates run out, they gain Duchies, and so on?

What if you have Kingdom Victory cards that are the same cost as another card?  For example, Duke is the same cost as Duchy, so if Duke is in the kingdom, how does it work?  Do you get to choose in that case whether to gain a Duke or a Duchy?

That feels like it would make for a rather dull game.  Unless you have Inheritance in play, you'll quickly end up with a bunch of dead cards in hand

EDIT: Also, what if you have Vineyard in the kingdom?  A cost of 1 potion can't really be ordered relative to the other victory cards' costs
Great points!!

I think that could be addressed at set-up:. "All VC cards in supply must have different prices in coins only".  So Duke wouldn't be allowed.  And
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2020, 12:48:11 am »
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If I'm understanding correctly, I think this will make some games a lot slower.

I will have to see after testing.  It is going to have more dud turns for sure.  But duds are fast.  This game has a sand timer that precludes large complicated engines:. the bane of fast games.
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mxdata

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2020, 01:09:57 am »
+2

If I'm understanding correctly, I think this will make some games a lot slower.

I will have to see after testing.  It is going to have more dud turns for sure.  But duds are fast.  This game has a sand timer that precludes large complicated engines:. the bane of fast games.

This really seems to me to be putting speed above fun.  I'd rather play a long game where I can actually have time for fun plays than a fast game with a lot of do-nothing turns
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2020, 10:06:50 am »
0

If I'm understanding correctly, I think this will make some games a lot slower.

I will have to see after testing.  It is going to have more dud turns for sure.  But duds are fast.  This game has a sand timer that precludes large complicated engines:. the bane of fast games.

This really seems to me to be putting speed above fun.  I'd rather play a long game where I can actually have time for fun plays than a fast game with a lot of do-nothing turns

I totally agree.  There are some times when my group needs to speed up a game in order to finish before someone has to leave.  So that's kind of the experiment here.  Sometimes for us, speed is a non-negotiable priority.  But obviously, we still want to make it fun.

Also, sometimes when you do a random shuffle, games are not as fun as others.  Workshop/Gardens; Rebuild, come to mind.
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faust

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2020, 11:47:17 am »
+1

If I'm understanding correctly, I think this will make some games a lot slower.

I will have to see after testing.  It is going to have more dud turns for sure.  But duds are fast.  This game has a sand timer that precludes large complicated engines:. the bane of fast games.

This really seems to me to be putting speed above fun.  I'd rather play a long game where I can actually have time for fun plays than a fast game with a lot of do-nothing turns

I totally agree.  There are some times when my group needs to speed up a game in order to finish before someone has to leave.  So that's kind of the experiment here.  Sometimes for us, speed is a non-negotiable priority.  But obviously, we still want to make it fun.

Also, sometimes when you do a random shuffle, games are not as fun as others.  Workshop/Gardens; Rebuild, come to mind.
If you're trying to brute-force Dominion into being faster, you're playing it in a way that it's not designed for, and that will probably lead to less fun. You could always play a game that was designed to be short, like Love Letter or something.
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crj

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2020, 11:48:25 am »
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Maybe a Project:

At the start of your turn, choose a Victory card from the supply. There must be no cheaper Victory cards in the supply. Choose one: gain it to your hand, or trash it.
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2020, 12:08:32 pm »
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Maybe a Project:

At the start of your turn, choose a Victory card from the supply. There must be no cheaper Victory cards in the supply. Choose one: gain it to your hand, or trash it.

Wow!  I really like that.  Guaranteed rush without necessarily clogging decks.  Question, though:  if a project, would it ever be bought except maybe end game?  I think it needs to be a Landmark to promote the fastest ending.  "At the start of each turn, the active player gains . . ."
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mxdata

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2020, 12:43:27 pm »
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If you're playing an in-person game and you want to make sure that it's faster, why not simply agree ahead of time to remove some of the Victory cards?  E.g., just agree to leave out some of the Provinces
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scolapasta

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2020, 12:49:54 pm »
+1

Maybe a Project:

At the start of your turn, choose a Victory card from the supply. There must be no cheaper Victory cards in the supply. Choose one: gain it to your hand, or trash it.

Wow!  I really like that.  Guaranteed rush without necessarily clogging decks.  Question, though:  if a project, would it ever be bought except maybe end game?  I think it needs to be a Landmark to promote the fastest ending.  "At the start of each turn, the active player gains . . ."

I've wanted to come up with some idea that was effectively a different end condition (while it would still technically be 3 pile or province, it *feels* different if it's because the VP piles keep getting depleted each turn).

It would obviously make for a very different strategy, but so do some of the other landmarks, like Bandit Fort, or Wolf Den.
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Saul Goodman

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2020, 11:47:16 am »
+1

If you're playing an in-person game and you want to make sure that it's faster, why not simply agree ahead of time to remove some of the Victory cards?  E.g., just agree to leave out some of the Provinces

That is a great and simple idea.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2020, 06:14:44 pm »
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Personally I think its more in spirit to speed up Dominion with the use of generous cards like Council Room.
Or by getting rid of slowing attacks.

Consider other generous mechanics like the one attached to Bishop (Your opponents may trash a card) combined with something that encourages buying green rather than a VP engine..
Like:
Sidewalk Preacher
+1 Card, +1 Action
Each player may trash a card.
If this card is trashed during your turn gain +$3.

Even Embassy where everyone gains a silver is not a bad example of generosity in card design (although silvers aren't great).
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Snowyowl

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Re: Quicksand Landmark - Feedback Welcome
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2020, 06:58:18 pm »
0

Personally I think its more in spirit to speed up Dominion with the use of generous cards like Council Room.
Or by getting rid of slowing attacks.

Consider other generous mechanics like the one attached to Bishop (Your opponents may trash a card) combined with something that encourages buying green rather than a VP engine..
Like:
Sidewalk Preacher
+1 Card, +1 Action
Each player may trash a card.
If this card is trashed during your turn gain +$3.

Even Embassy where everyone gains a silver is not a bad example of generosity in card design (although silvers aren't great).
Effects like Council Room make the game finish in less turns - I think Saul is talking about effects that make the game finish in less minutes. Cantrips and effects that require your opponent to react on your turn generally make a turn take longer, even though they make more happen in that turn. And trashing enables megaturn engines, which can stretch out a turn to five minutes.
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