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Author Topic: Cards that move a card twice  (Read 900 times)

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Jeebus

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Cards that move a card twice
« on: January 14, 2020, 05:41:40 pm »
0

I have identified these:

Play and move: Prince, Procession, Counterfeit
Gain and move: Replace, Summon
Discard and move: Vassal, Warrior

Are there any others? I'm not interested in setting aside because nothing can interfere with that. This is regarding lose-track.

EDIT: I'm not interested in cards that set aside or reveal a card as the FIRST movement, like Bandit, Wishing Well, Sentry, Golem, etc., since nothing can interfere in the middle. Prince actually first plays a card, THEN sets it aside. Something can interfere in the middle then.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 12:50:47 pm by Jeebus »
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spineflu

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 09:09:47 pm »
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you aren't looking for stuff that moves things while it's in play, just X+move, right? So not Monastery or Bonfire?

Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 09:50:35 pm »
+1

you aren't looking for stuff that moves things while it's in play, just X+move, right? So not Monastery or Bonfire?

Yes, stuff that actually moves a card twice.
Edit: To clarify, not Monastery or Bonfire.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 09:31:55 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 11:19:45 pm »
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Throne Room variants kind of belong to the "play and move" category, except that they never actually end up moving the card more than once. They move the card to play, and then attempt to move it to play again. If the card is already in play, nothing happens. If it isn't, Throne Room loses track.

Ingix

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2020, 02:19:06 am »
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I'm not seeing how Warrior fits into that category.
It my physically discard the same card twice, but then there needs to be a shuffle in between, so it's identity is lost.

OTOH, Herald and Golem seems to fit: First revealing card(s) from your deck, then playing it/them (seems to be a similar mechanism to Summon).
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faust

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2020, 07:36:19 am »
+3

Trash and gain: Thief, Noble Brigand
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Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2020, 09:21:49 am »
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I'm not seeing how Warrior fits into that category.
It my physically discard the same card twice, but then there needs to be a shuffle in between, so it's identity is lost.

OTOH, Herald and Golem seems to fit: First revealing card(s) from your deck, then playing it/them (seems to be a similar mechanism to Summon).

Warrior discards and then trashes the same card.

Herald/Golem do move cards twice, just like countless cards like Sentry and Wishing Well. But this is effectively setting cards aside, so they are not interesting here. I should have said so.

Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 09:29:15 am »
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Trash and gain: Thief, Noble Brigand

Yes, thanks!
They don't seem to currently be able to cause lose-track, because they can't interact with Fortress or Possession on when-trash. But they belong in the list.

markusin

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2020, 09:52:28 am »
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Throne Room variants kind of belong to the "play and move" category, except that they never actually end up moving the card more than once. They move the card to play, and then attempt to move it to play again. If the card is already in play, nothing happens. If it isn't, Throne Room loses track.

Indeed, you can throne a Crown, and then the first Crown play does something that gains a Mandarin and topdecks the Crown. This will cause the Throne Room to lose track of Crown and the Throne Room won't be able to move Crown back into play on the second play of Crown.
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Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 10:48:42 am »
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Indeed, you can throne a Crown, and then the first Crown play does something that gains a Mandarin and topdecks the Crown. This will cause the Throne Room to lose track of Crown and the Throne Room won't be able to move Crown back into play on the second play of Crown.

Or a simpler example: Throne an Embargo. ;)

Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2020, 01:55:55 pm »
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In case anybody's interested and/or has feedback/corrections:

I've found that lose-track involves the following specific categories of cards. The blue ones can actually lose track.

1. THRONE ROOMS: Abilities that play a card twice (Throne Room etc.)
2. Some triggered abilities triggering on when-gain, when-discard or when-trash
    2a. WATCHTOWERS: when-gain abilities that move the gained card (Watchtower, Innovation etc.) [Villa only tracks itself]
    2b. INNS: when-gain abilities that may happen to move "themselves" (Inn, Blessed Village, Cursed Village)
    2c. SHEEPDOGS: when-gain abilities that may happen to move the gained card (Sheepdog; when gained on when-gain: Cavalry, Inn, Blessed Village, Cursed Village; with Way of the Mouse: Black Cat, Falconer, Sheepdog)
    2d. NOMAD CAMPS: when-gain abilities that put a card on top of the gained card on your deck (Nomad Camp, Rocks, Cursed Village, Blessed Village, Mandarin)
    2e. BORDER VILLAGES: when-gain abilities that gain a card on top of the gained card in your discard pile (Border Village, Death Cart, etc.)
    2f. SCHEMES: when-discard abilities that move the discarded card (Scheme, Hermit etc.) [track only themselves, except Scheme, Prince and Way of the Frog]
    2g. FAITHFUL HOUNDS: when-discard abilities that move the discarded card (or may happen to move it) outside Clean-up (Faithful Hound, Village Green) [Both only track themselves]
    2h. TUNNELS: when-discard abilities that gain a card on top of the discarded card in your discard pile (Tunnel)
    2i. FORTRESSES: when-trash abilities that move the trashed card (Fortress, Possession) [Fortress only tracks itself]
3. NECROMANCERS: Abilities that play a card without putting it in play (Necromancer, new BoM, etc.)
4. Abilities that move a card twice
    4a. PROCESSIONS: abilities that play and move a card (Procession: trashes, Counterfeit: trashes, Prince: sets aside)
    4b. REPLACES: abilities that gain and move a card (Reap, Replace, Summon)
    4c. VASSALS: abilities that discard and move a card (Vassal, Warrior)
    4d. THIEFS: abilities that trash and move a card (Thief, Noble Brigand)
5. TURTLES: Abilities that move the played card. (Way of the Butterfly, Way of the Horse, Way of the Turtle)

And these interactions can lead to losing track:

1. A THRONE ROOM plays a card which is moved from play: the THRONE ROOM loses track. The card's ability, and all TURTLES, also lose track when the THRONE ROOM plays it again.
2. A WATCHTOWER moves gained card: all other WATCHTOWERS lose track.
3. A SCHEME moves discarded card: all other SCHEMES lose track.
4. A FAITHFUL HOUND moves discarded card, all other FAITHFUL HOUNDS lose track.
5. A FORTRESS moves trashed card: all other FORTRESSES lose track.
6. An INN is gained and moves itself, or a SHEEPDOG moves the gained card: all WATCHTOWERS lose track.
7. A card is gained onto your deck, and a NOMAD CAMP causes it to be covered: all WATCHTOWERS lose track.
8. A card is gained onto your deck, gaining another card, and a WATCHTOWER moves the last card: all WATCHTOWERS lose track of the first card.
9. A NECROMANCER plays a card: the card's ability, and all TURTLES, lose track.
10. A PROCESSION plays a card which is moved from play: the PROCESSION loses track.
11. A REPLACE gains a card, and a WATCHTOWER moves it: the REPLACE loses track.
12. A REPLACE gains an INN which moves itself, or a card that is moved by a SHEEPDOG: the REPLACE loses track.
13. A VASSAL discards a card, a FAITHFUL HOUND moves it: the VASSAL loses track. The card's ability, and all TURTLES, also lose track when the VASSAL plays the card.

Obsolete since the 2019 errata: A card is gained to your discard pile, and a BORDER VILLAGE causes it to be covered: all WATCHTOWERS lose track, and all REPLACES lose track.
Obsolete since the 2019 errata: A VASSAL discards a card, a TUNNEL causes it to be covered: the VASSAL loses track [only Warrior]

(With Way of the Mouse it's possible to make THIEFS lose track by playing a card that gains the trashed card.)

EDIT 2020-01-21: Added interaction #8. Added to "2b INNS" and interaction #6.
EDIT 2020-03-04: Split "2b INNS" into "2b INNS" and "2c SHEEPDOGS". Updated interactions #6 and #12.
EDIT 2020-07-13: Updates for Menagerie
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 08:05:37 pm by Jeebus »
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markusin

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2020, 05:50:11 pm »
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In case anybody's interested and/or has feedback/corrections:

...

4. A FORTRESS moves trashed card: all other FORTRESSES lose track.

...


Can you explain this one? Doesn't Fortress only ever track itself? Is there a case where Fortress ever losses track of itself? Trashing multiple Fortresses at once (e.g. with Chapel) should have them all return to your hand no?
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Jeebus

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2020, 05:57:51 pm »
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4. A FORTRESS moves trashed card: all other FORTRESSES lose track.

Can you explain this one? Doesn't Fortress only ever track itself? Is there a case where Fortress ever losses track of itself? Trashing multiple Fortresses at once (e.g. with Chapel) should have them all return to your hand no?

I'm using the words in ALL CAPS as types of cards.

2g. FORTRESSES: when-trash abilities that move the trashed card (Fortress, Possession) [Fortress only tracks itself]

So a FORTRESS is a Fortress or a Possession. In this case, Fortress moves itself from trash and Possession loses track, or Possession moves Fortress from trash and Fortress loses track. (Since Fortress only tracks itself, it's not possible that Fortress loses track of another card - including another Fortress - that Possession moves from trash.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:00:08 pm by Jeebus »
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markusin

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Re: Cards that move a card twice
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2020, 06:05:10 pm »
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4. A FORTRESS moves trashed card: all other FORTRESSES lose track.

Can you explain this one? Doesn't Fortress only ever track itself? Is there a case where Fortress ever losses track of itself? Trashing multiple Fortresses at once (e.g. with Chapel) should have them all return to your hand no?

I'm using the words in ALL CAPS as types of cards.

2g. FORTRESSES: when-trash abilities that move the trashed card (Fortress, Possession) [Fortress only tracks itself]

So a FORTRESS is a Fortress or a Possession. In this case, Fortress moves itself from trash and Possession loses track, or Possession moves Fortress from trash and Fortress loses track. (Since Fortress only tracks itself, it's not possible that Fortress loses track of another card - including another Fortress - that Possession moves from trash.)

Huh, I must have interpreted Possession and Procession. At any rate I forgot FORTRESS referred to a category.
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